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girl dick energy posted:Sometimes the mixes they come up with for solo stuff is interesting-but-flawed or "yeah, I could see this working if it was actually a better deck", and then sometimes there's poo poo like that. I have to believe it's on purpose because usually the opponents deck is somewhat competent in comparison.
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Dec 28, 2022 20:18
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Zeus is cool honestly. There should be more going second tools that don't just help you OTK To be blunt the game needs a lot of banning and reworking because in it's current form it is way too reliant on being able to pull off a OTK for a deck to be considered any good, when in an ideal world the only time a OTK should happen is if one player gets extremely lucky and say gets a first turn Exodia or something Like Yu-Gi-Oh is one of the few games I know where the problem is that it plays too fast, usually the problem is the opposite
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Dec 29, 2022 01:47
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drrockso20 posted:To be blunt the game needs a lot of banning and reworking because in it's current form it is way too reliant on being able to pull off a OTK for a deck to be considered any good, when in an ideal world the only time a OTK should happen is if one player gets extremely lucky and say gets a first turn Exodia or something I think that ship has sailed at this point tbh. Like how many actual years of release would you need to roll back to make OTKs not a core part of the game? Would be a lot easier to scrap the current game as 'Legacy' and push Rush duels or any of the other failed ways they've tried previously.
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Dec 29, 2022 04:37
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Zore posted:Like how many actual years of release would you need to roll back to make OTKs not a core part of the game? Going by what I've learned from History of Yu-Gi-Oh (which is probably correct enough), the first OTK decks as we know it were late 2015. So you'd probably have to rewind back to Nekroz format to hit a codified format that didn't do OTKs--and back to Duelist Alliance format if you want to hit the last no-OTKs format people actually liked. I think the real way to counter an OTK meta is to beef up the offerings of control decks, but if one of those is good enough to compete (even if it's not good enough to win) it gets hated by all the people who just want to play an OTK-fest.
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Dec 29, 2022 05:04
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Cleretic posted:Going by what I've learned from History of Yu-Gi-Oh (which is probably correct enough), the first OTK decks as we know it were late 2015. So you'd probably have to rewind back to Nekroz format to hit a codified format that didn't do OTKs--and back to Duelist Alliance format if you want to hit the last no-OTKs format people actually liked. Yeah even if you make a floodgate that's easy to get rid of it's immedietly considered the worst thing to play against. I'd quibble about the OTK's coming in that late though. CED was 2004 and TeleDAD was...2008 (2009 maybe?). It's been a part of the game for awhile, for better and worse.
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Dec 29, 2022 05:10
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah even if you make a floodgate that's easy to get rid of it's immedietly considered the worst thing to play against. I think the general mindset behind that is thst before that point an OTK was a ridiculous combo reliant on single cards, and while certainly possible the OTKs weren't exactly consistent enough to be your main game plan... and crucially, were treated as a problem that Konami would crack down on through banlists. 2015 is kinda the point where OTKs stop being an outlier that's indicative of something going wrong, and start being to a degree how a deck is supposed to work.
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Dec 29, 2022 05:52
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Banning all of the extra deck cards that make OTKing trivial (eg Accesscode, Borrelsword, Utopia double, etc) would go a long way. It wouldn't solve the problem, but it would help.
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Dec 29, 2022 06:03
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King of Solomon posted:Banning all of the extra deck cards that make OTKing trivial (eg Accesscode, Borrelsword, Utopia double, etc) would go a long way. It wouldn't solve the problem, but it would help. TBF this would end up hitting mid range decks more than the top tier poo poo. I think Spright and maybe exosister run Zeus but that's about it. IshTear has more toolbox extra deck and their mill effects to clear the boards and just out interacts opponents to clear the path. Spright CAN go into Zeus but you're more likely using the ED cards to set up a few negates not the Big Beefy Boys. Exosister, Floo, Tenyi and even Branded aer more often using their own archetypal stuff or just using the ED as a toolbox (Or a back up back up back up plan in floos case).
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Dec 29, 2022 06:20
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:TBF this would end up hitting mid range decks more than the top tier poo poo. and that's why they should have used a duel links/speed duel style FL list. it lets you hit the top decks while letting lower power decks still run powerful generics, bridging the gap between meta and rogue some
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Dec 29, 2022 06:40
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Zore posted:I think that ship has sailed at this point tbh. Like how many actual years of release would you need to roll back to make OTKs not a core part of the game? Would be a lot easier to scrap the current game as 'Legacy' and push Rush duels or any of the other failed ways they've tried previously. I'd say reboot the game but leave the rules and card design mostly alone so that a curated selection of old cards can be reprinted(indeed could have a list of old cards that would remain legal to use in the new version), plus it's not really the rules themselves that is the problem it's the unadulterated power creep and complexity creep in the cards that is the problem, so this "reboot" would be mostly a reigning in of card design rather than anything radical Cleretic posted:Going by what I've learned from History of Yu-Gi-Oh (which is probably correct enough), the first OTK decks as we know it were late 2015. So you'd probably have to rewind back to Nekroz format to hit a codified format that didn't do OTKs--and back to Duelist Alliance format if you want to hit the last no-OTKs format people actually liked. Well first off gently caress anyone who actually enjoys using that kind of deck, and secondly even if most all of the OTK enabling stuff is removed there would still be plenty of archetypes that would still be quite usable across pretty much any given era of the game
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Dec 29, 2022 07:29
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Countering unga bunga otk is easy, just look at my win rate.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:01
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Personally I really like playing control decks, because I think the ideal fantasy of how your deck should play is as a one-off villain from the anime. And the best of those have always been the ones with the loving weirdo control and floodgate strats.
Cleretic fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 08:31
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:TBF this would end up hitting mid range decks more than the top tier poo poo. I think Spright and maybe exosister run Zeus but that's about it. IshTear has more toolbox extra deck and their mill effects to clear the boards and just out interacts opponents to clear the path. Spright CAN go into Zeus but you're more likely using the ED cards to set up a few negates not the Big Beefy Boys. Exosister, Floo, Tenyi and even Branded aer more often using their own archetypal stuff or just using the ED as a toolbox (Or a back up back up back up plan in floos case). Sure, that's true. Still, if you want to get the OTKs out of the game, you kinda need to address these cards.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:33
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People forget that for a long time, yugioh sucked total rear end. The problem isn't OTKs, it's Konami printing increasingly generic power cards, and their lovely banlists.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:52
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TBH, for all Hearthstone got wrong over the years, I do kinda miss how they can just errata a card if it gets to be too oppressive, since they don’t have to keep faithful to a physical game And to be clear, I’m just talking stuff like changing soft once/turns to hard once/turns
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Dec 29, 2022 10:02
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You're not really ever going to fix Yugioh because the default goal of the game is to remove all possibility of your opponent interacting. OTK isn't the problem, it's lack of interactivity and total lockout gamestyle. Either through monstrous floodgates or infinite negates. Ancient Gear is an OTK deck, an actual OTK deck, and most people would not consider that to be particularly busted. Nonsense floodgates aren't fun (see Mystic Mine), gigantic negate boards aren't fun (see Draitron). Well they might be fun for one player, but combo control is basically the optimal playstyle in Yugioh no matter what. Actual OTK and beatdown stuff is legitimately rate outside very specific banlists, and I don't quite want it to change anyway. The fact that everything is super fast is great, Magical Musket is a poo poo hot fun as gently caress deck that does actual board control and beatdown in an interesting way because it is full of hard once per turns and needs to actually interact with your opponent. Yugioh has always been build an unbreakable board, or break a built board. It's just early on an unbreakable board was an 1850 ATK 4 star equipped with Axe of Despair. Yugioh played at top levels is almost always miserable even historically.
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Dec 29, 2022 11:34
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Syenite posted:People forget that for a long time, yugioh sucked total rear end. The problem isn't OTKs, it's Konami printing increasingly generic power cards, and their lovely banlists.
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Dec 29, 2022 11:50
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Floodgates loving rule, more floodgates
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Dec 29, 2022 12:32
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Counterpoint: mid 2000s Yu-Gi-Oh owns. I wish the AI and decks in WC2006 were better cause I love that resource focused grind game
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Dec 29, 2022 13:12
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All complaints about yugioh can be answered and dismissed by yugioh being a business run by fallible greedy people.
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Dec 29, 2022 13:12
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Ban every card made after GOAT format
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Dec 29, 2022 16:04
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The most banned cards are pre goat amusingly.
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Dec 29, 2022 17:05
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Unironically Spirit Reaper is one of the best cards ever designed. A wall with a built in weakness that encourages your opponent to think creatively, which also has a powerful aggressive effect that comes with a risk for using it. If you look at all the parts of it together, it's poetry.
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Dec 29, 2022 17:10
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Yeah surely Reaper is better than Goat
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Dec 29, 2022 17:14
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Goat format is the format for people who like staples because half of every single deck is the same core of spells.
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Dec 29, 2022 18:08
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Syenite posted:Goat format is the format for people who like staples because half of every single deck is the same core of spells. things have not changed much. 3 maxx c, 3 ash blossom, 2 called by the grave
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Dec 29, 2022 21:05
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Don't forget imperms!
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Dec 29, 2022 21:32
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Eh, imperm is seeing less play then maxx and ash.
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Dec 29, 2022 22:03
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Skeleton Mom posted:things have not changed much. 3 maxx c, 3 ash blossom, 2 called by the grave Nah hand traps (except Maxx C because that's banned as hell for good reason in TCG) are something that depends entirely on the format and your deck. The ones that see really see play right now are the bystials (which are honestly probably gonna get hit). You ALWAYS run pot of greed confiscation etc if they're legal. E: basically, if every deck that can conceivably play a card is made better without reservation by that card, and every deck CAN play it (pot of greed, graceful charity, accesscode talker, trap dustchute, maxx "C", etc) it makes the game worse because what are you going to do, choose NOT to play it and cripple your deck? No real deckbuilding decisions necessary for those slots. With other handtraps, you switch them up to hit certain decks or to be able to synergize with specific ones, or choose to play different types of cards entirely because your game plan is to break boards. Syenite fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Dec 30, 2022 |
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Dec 30, 2022 03:39
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Syenite posted:Nah hand traps (except Maxx C because that's banned as hell for good reason in TCG) are something that depends entirely on the format and your deck. The ones that see really see play right now are the bystials (which are honestly probably gonna get hit). You ALWAYS run pot of greed confiscation etc if they're legal. They were clearly talking about master duel, where maxx c and ash are pretty heavily played
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Dec 30, 2022 12:10
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mandatory lesbian posted:They were clearly talking about master duel, where maxx c and ash are pretty heavily played They were extrapolating how master duel is to all of yugioh, and the fact is, in every locals and official event that isn't either in Japan or a very specific side event, Maxx C is banned, and has been for a very long time. E: ok that's maybe a bit hyperbolic, apologies, but master duel is a very small slice of how yugioh is played, and it truly is ONLY in master duel where ash/Maxx C/called by are so overwhelmingly centralized. Syenite fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Dec 30, 2022 |
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Dec 30, 2022 13:34
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MD has become everything for many of us, who can afford cardboard or covid at an event?
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Dec 30, 2022 13:57
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Charles Bukowski posted:MD has become everything for many of us, who can afford cardboard or covid at an event? True, but most sim play still happens on the unofficial sims where all the cards are free: Omega or edopro or (lol) dueling book. There are also still remote play events, but less so nowadays.
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Dec 30, 2022 14:03
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I suspect its the most popular way to play 'master rule' ygo at this point. The unofficial sims have always remained niche and are mostly exclusively bound to PC and there's only so much paper people can play in a week.
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Dec 30, 2022 14:10
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I know I never really got on with the 'full' simulators just because I'm not really someone who gets on well with a totally limitless card pool. That's just overwhelming, and I'm not really interested in playing just top-of-the-line 'would cost my rent to compile' decks. Master Duel's approach to giving you cards sits really well with me in comparison, and it already providing rarjties and value weirdly makes me more okay with trying to go for a high-roller deck even if I mostly have more fun playing weird jank.
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Dec 30, 2022 14:18
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Syenite posted:They were extrapolating how master duel is to all of yugioh, and the fact is, in every locals and official event that isn't either in Japan or a very specific side event, Maxx C is banned, and has been for a very long time. Maxx C is at 3 in the OCG, but it isn't a super huge menace there afaik.
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Dec 30, 2022 14:30
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From what I've heard, the OCG is a weird beast. All sorts of tremendous horseshit is allowed, but it's not a problem because they just don't play that way. Maxx C isn't an issue because it would be rude to play a deck that it counters or something
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Dec 30, 2022 14:36
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I wish we could be as cool as the ocg and gentleman's out of unfun horseshit. Sadly the tcg has no one of that character, lol get mathematically owned literal child.
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Dec 30, 2022 14:45
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Master Duel will operate differently from them due to Bo1 format that makes a bunch of card better and vice versa. Hand trap are the best way to counter almost all unknown. Also they gave some out for free, so it help cultivated the culture of hand negate. Nyaa fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Dec 30, 2022 |
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Dec 30, 2022 14:47
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Dabir posted:From what I've heard, the OCG is a weird beast. All sorts of tremendous horseshit is allowed, but it's not a problem because they just don't play that way. Maxx C isn't an issue because it would be rude to play a deck that it counters or something
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Dec 30, 2022 15:01
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