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Nothingtoseehere posted:Dark Souls 2. Proud 94%-who-didn't-become-the-70% here.
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Dec 30, 2022 18:12
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Surprisingly few people finish games if achievement statistics are anything to go by.
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Dec 30, 2022 18:15
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Lord Ludikrous posted:Surprisingly few people finish games if achievement statistics are anything to go by.  From my Steam Replay page. Gaming problem? Me?
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Dec 30, 2022 18:32
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I like to buy a game, suck at it, and then watch someone else play it on YouTube. It's a win-win, the developer gets their money, and I get to see the game finished.
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Dec 30, 2022 18:34
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I'm loving lolling at the underlying messages in this sentence alone
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Dec 30, 2022 18:58
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Diet Crack posted:I'm loving lolling at the underlying messages in this sentence alone Oh yeah I'm sure these people attempting to becoming celebrities will drop their main method of self-promotion
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Dec 30, 2022 19:03
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Lord Ludikrous posted:Surprisingly few people finish games if achievement statistics are anything to go by. I was looking at Football Manager 22 achievements this afternoon and I'm impressed at "First Victory: You guided your team to victory in a competitive fixture" not being achieved by 15% of players. And 15.1% haven't signed a player despite you being able to do this almost on day 1.
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Dec 30, 2022 19:09
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forkboy84 posted:I was looking at Football Manager 22 achievements this afternoon and I'm impressed at "First Victory: You guided your team to victory in a competitive fixture" not being achieved by 15% of players. And 15.1% haven't signed a player despite you being able to do this almost on day 1. Achievement/trophy stats are all wonky like that. There are games that unlock a trophy for watching the opening credits with less than 100% unlock rates. Crisis Core Reunion starts with a tiny fight and you get a trophy at the end of it, after probably 30 seconds of gameplay. According to the PS5 trophy list, 4 in every 100 players started the game then turned it off immediately without ever actually playing it because the unlock rate for that trophy is 95.9% If you believe the stats, even for an ultra-popular game only 69.5% of players even bothered to finish the opening chapter of RDR2 on PS4.
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Dec 30, 2022 19:18
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forkboy84 posted:I was looking at Football Manager 22 achievements this afternoon and I'm impressed at "First Victory: You guided your team to victory in a competitive fixture" not being achieved by 15% of players. And 15.1% haven't signed a player despite you being able to do this almost on day 1. I tend to install games, run them to make sure they work then not get round to playing them properly for months (if ever). Especially if it's cheap on sale and I'm not desperate to play it. I assume a lot of people do the same.
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Dec 30, 2022 19:19
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Ok, so my issue with this is that in your mind there's a divergence due to disability
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Dec 30, 2022 19:21
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On the subject of QTEs; developers do seem to have learned from this now. Both the recent Spiderman games have options to switch them off with no punishment, and I'm fairly sure the same goes for the recent God of War games too.
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Dec 30, 2022 19:29
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I don't know how you would overcome the communication issue for games like destiny. There's just no way I can see that allows you to coordinate a raid team in the same way that voice chat accomplishes.
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Dec 30, 2022 19:30
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So, no social media and the show is going to try and teach them how to be decent human beings?
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Dec 30, 2022 19:38
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I very, very strongly disagree with this, but I feel like I can't add any extra justification I haven't already added. A disabled person not being able to to something is different to an otherwise abled person being unable to do it, and it's right to help the disabled person. I don't think that's a controversial opinion to have? But a game being hard is not inherently a disability issue. Plenty of people without disabilities can't beat games either. It's situational
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Dec 30, 2022 19:56
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happyhippy posted:
Oh huh didn't know about this feature, neat 
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Dec 30, 2022 20:04
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All games should have cheats and level skips. Theres also a very clear distinction between a game asking a disabled person to do something impossible vs an able bodied person getting bored at a challenge they could pass with a lot of effort. In both cases though it would be better if they could skip that bit of the game. Theres something very selfish to me about talking about your own personal experience of satisfaction at beating a challenge perfectly tuned to your ability as if thats the most important thing in the world, like not having the option to make the game easier made it more meaningful for you so that option should be denied to others. More options is more good. Those who want the intended experience can have it and those who don't might just need some training wheels for a while.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:18
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History Comes Inside! posted:
Do you need to get through any of the story to unlock the online? Could be a chunk of people only interested in that part of it. Doesn’t change the main point that many fewer people than you expect actually finish games. Is this a problem for the makers though? They did already get your money after all.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:21
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It can happen that achievements are not triggered on day 1 of the game, when most play it. It happened a few times to me, Borderlands 3, Batman Arkham Knight, are two I remember. Tesseraction posted:Oh huh didn't know about this feature, neat NERD! Actually jealous.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:23
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Mr Phillby posted:Theres also a very clear distinction between a game asking a disabled person to do something impossible vs an able bodied person getting bored at a challenge they could pass with a lot of effort. I don't know where this idea is coming from that not having a disability means you can automatically be good at every single game.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:35
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Horizon Forbidden West wins accessibility this year for me just for including an option to remove tinnitus sounds from the game. Almost made me cry when I saw that. As someone with crippling tinnitus and hyperacusis, any tinnitus sounding noises in games feels like daggers in my ears and can make my own tinnitus permanently worse. It's such a ignored condition since it's completely invisible so seeing that the devs are aware of it genuinely touched me.
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Dec 30, 2022 21:01
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Forbidden West was fun but dear lord it didn't half suffer from absymal handholding. I do not want the player character to yell 'HUH, MAYBE I SHOULD ENTER THIS CODE INTO THAT DOOR' within ten seconds of entering a puzzle area. At least give it a few minutes. The game would be far better if it had an option to turn off those dialogue lines. I don't think every game has to leave you to the wolves like a soulsborne, but come on I do want to at least play a game here.
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Dec 30, 2022 21:11
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ThomasPaine posted:Soulsborne games were a revelation for me tbh. I put off playing them for so long because I thought I'd find the difficulty frustrating and wouldn't enjoy them at all, but once I tried the sheer rush you get from actually feeling yourself getting better at something was incredible. They weirdly enough helped a lot with mental health, nothing better when you're going through it than zoning out and sitting bashing the poo poo out of a few beasts for a few hours - you have to concentrate so hard you pretty much can't dwell on whatever else is bothering you. Certainly a lot more sustainable than my other stress/anxiety outlet, which is drinking entirely far too many glasses of wine and passing out lol. I played DS1 as my very first Souls game right before starting Elden Ring, it holds up great. Coming from ER it's going to feel a lot slower and like you're losing some options like ashes and easy jumping, but the level design, mood, and sense of getting better and more powerful are all there and the level design itself is probably the best they've ever done and among the best anybody has ever done. If you liked Stormveil and Leyndell you'll like Dark Souls 1
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Dec 30, 2022 21:12
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happyhippy posted:NERD! your score is not one to sniff at either!
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Dec 30, 2022 21:40
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action games are essentially extended continuous QTEs. bluntly, why not play strategy games, turn-based games, simulation games - games that don't involve so much fine motor exertion? not against accessibility options but I think we're underestimating how difficult it is to balance a game. lots of developers struggle to test and balance one difficulty level e: like I'm trying to parse this under a social model of disability and ????
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Dec 30, 2022 21:46
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I'm also a little wary of assuming stuff is "impossible" for disabled gamers. Look at Brolylegs, one of the best chun li players in NA, dude plays with his mouth. He's currently streaming dark souls 3 and doesn't seem to be struggling at all with it all. Although I'm still confused how he manages to play and talk at the same time.
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Dec 30, 2022 21:49
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Just wanted to say as a designer I have loved this discussion. I wish I could sit down in a room with lots of food and drinks and just chat about and play games with everyone. Personally I'm a big proponent of difficulty modes and as much accessibility as possible in all games. It just means more people get invested in your game and you do better in the long run. Looking at achievements for games we play to see drop-off is a fascinating pastime that my wife and I do a lot. Something essential to F2P games is "the funnel", basically a visual description of a user and their path through the game up to a certain point (quitting, monetizing etc.) Its also known as a user journey. Some of the most fascinating data comes from if you look at a sankey or starburst chart of user drop off (https://clevertap.com/blog/sankey-chart-vs-sunburst-chart/) It's where you can find out exactly where every cohort (rough grouping of player types) quits or loses interest and you then go change that bit of the game. Possibly only for just that cohort. The aim of all this is not to make a better experience of course, it's to get more people invested in the game long enough that they feel its worth getting out their wallet. (raise your hand if you're surprised! Anyone? Nope, me neither!) It just has the side benefit of making those game types more user friendly and accessible to everyone. This entire process is basically skipped by the non live service industry, but since drat near every game is now turning to live services, I expect this to become the norm. It'll lead to much more accessible games at least!
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Dec 30, 2022 22:02
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The invisible helping hand!
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Dec 30, 2022 22:09
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ThomasPaine posted:Forbidden West was fun but dear lord it didn't half suffer from absymal handholding. I do not want the player character to yell 'HUH, MAYBE I SHOULD ENTER THIS CODE INTO THAT DOOR' within ten seconds of entering a puzzle area. At least give it a few minutes. The game would be far better if it had an option to turn off those dialogue lines. I don't think every game has to leave you to the wolves like a soulsborne, but come on I do want to at least play a game here. God of War Ragnarok does the same thing - except there are multiple characters telling you the solution to every puzzle, sometimes as many as four. And then when a difficult puzzle does come along and you struggle with it for 20 minutes everyone stays silent.
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Dec 30, 2022 22:27
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Mr Phillby posted:Meat boy is an absolute no brainer for accessability options because we have the Celeste right there, a similar hard platforming game with a lot of great accesability options. I first of all want to disagree strenuously with the premise that how good someone is at videogames can be quantified. I may have beaten Getting Over It but that doesn't make me "better" in any sense of the word except perhaps that I'm better at this exact one specific game. I have failed miserably at countless other much more popular games. Lots of people who have played that game and never finished it or never played it at all I'm sure are better people than me, and if there is such a thing as being "good at videogames" I'm sure most players who never finished the game better fit the descriptor generally than I do. But I think what people have trouble understanding is that an artist does not owe you satisfaction, not even if you paid to view or participate in their work. If the point of the work is to satisfy you, then sure, an artist who fails to satisfy their audience has failed. For those artists, difficulty modes are a great idea, they help ensure everyone has a satisfying experience. A game like Spiderman 3 should have had a difficulty option that disabled QTEs to allow more people to have a satisfying experience. But for other works the point is to challenge the audience, and the artist makes that challenge knowing full well that some, perhaps even most of their prospective audience will fail to meet that challenge. In those situations, the artist has no obligation to help the audience along, except in ways they themselves deem appropriate. And if you do fail that challenge, you didn't miss out on the experience of the work, you experienced it in failing. I do think it loving sucks though if a work intended to challenge is marketed as a work intended to satisfy--I'm reminded particularly here of the film mother!, which was an arsty film that drew allegorical parallels between the biblical fall of man and mankind's destruction of the Earth, and was marketed like it was some mainstream horror film starring (at the time) cinema darling Jennifer Lawrence. People who went to that film expecting something like Halloween got loving scammed. But if you saw it at the Venice Film Festival, you're going in with the understanding that someone is going to show you their art and they have no obligation to make something you personally can enjoy or appreciate. I can't speak for everyone who likes hard games, especially since I'm not the sort of person who always plays on hard when given the choice, but I can say that for me, there is an actual, genuine difference between facing a challenge and choosing not to do it the easy way, versus facing a challenge and knowing there is no easier way. Overcoming an obstacle that you refused to compromise with feels different to overcoming an obstacle that refused to compromise with you, and I don't think it's wrong for an artist to make a game that evokes the latter feeling, even if it does mean that easier difficulties can't be offered.
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Dec 30, 2022 22:32
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I have one working eye snd one working hand and the only thing I can do is laugh at the person doing the internet equivalent of acting like a jolly hockey teacher at Bobby. Pull your socks up! Practice makes perfect! If you only try and don’t give up you’ll improve!!! whatatit
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Dec 30, 2022 22:34
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Brendan Rodgers posted:I don't even understand what Souls fans would lose if an easy mode was added. It is an incredibly mainstream game. It's not designed for some kind of gaming aristocracy. But it's like the playerbase have built up this whole "git gud" thing where an easy mode would cast doubt on their "achievement". I think a better question tbh is what an easy mode would add or change about the experience, and that comes down to what makes them 'hard' to begin with. Celeste has optional modifiers that make the core platforming easier - Elden Ring has very little actual platforming and it's generally optional. GoW and Spider-Man let you turn off QTEs - Elden Ring doesn't have any. Hades lets you activate a God mode that boosts your defence by a fixed amount each time you die - this is a concession to it's roguelike nature. In Elden Ring you can level up to boost your HP and defences permanently by default at almost any time. Attack and stat boosts in Elden Ring are gated by exploration and combat, but there's no time trials or unusually punishing minigames. Exploration can be challenging but can be mitigated by either careful aggroing of enemies or just Running Like Hell between glowing items and checkpoints. Combat is the big one for difficulty, obviously. If you're not used to a stamina system it can be a lot to adjust to and easy to gently caress up, but you can increase your resource pools just by levelling. If your easy mode is a boost to player health and stamina, it's only saving players having to learn to play by grinding lower level enemies to reach the same point. But then there's also stuff that Soulsborne games in general do that explicitly makes things easier. There's lock on as standard, which makes ranged and melee a lot more manageable and accessible than in, say, Horizon Zero Dawn. There's the ability to use NPC and human allies in boss fights. There's the ability to change gameplay styles and weaponry on a whim to try different approaches. There's no skill tree, meaning the gameplay is consistent throughout and nothing is artificially kept from the player after the very early game. Elden Ring has an extremely well known farming spot which trivialises levelling and has survived multiple patches, indicating the developers are fine with people making the experience easier if they need to (Bloodborne has something similar). Wordy bollocks aside, I think the main reason a separate easy mode is impractical is that it would gently caress up multiplayer. Poor players would only be able to play with poor players, or good players would be expected to support them with fighting boring, less satisfying versions of bosses. If the multiplayer aspect is considered central to the director's vision for the games (and Miyazaki's famous anecdote about being helped by other drivers in snowy conditions suggests it is), then it makes sense that the focus instead is on a single shared experience - with concessions for players to manage difficulty how they wish. EDIT: This isn't to say they could do more with accessibility options, especially for visual/audio issues that wouldn't affect gameplay. Cheat codes and mods are also fine imo, as there's no expectation that these would provide a balanced rewarding experience. Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Dec 30, 2022 |
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Dec 30, 2022 22:34
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learnincurve posted:I have one working eye snd one working hand and the only thing I can do is laugh at the person doing the internet equivalent of acting like a jolly hockey teacher at Bobby. Pull your socks up! Practice makes perfect! If you only try and don’t give up you’ll improve!!! nobody is saying this
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Dec 30, 2022 22:56
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Mostly the problem with console games for the disabled is that it became the norm right at the start that reaction times = skill and the entire industry has grown up around how fast you can hammer a series of buttons. It’s very very hard to get people who scream about being HARDCORE to understand that easy mode does not necessarily mean dumbing the game right down but that the fundamental problem Microsoft and Sony have is that the Xbox and PlayStation controllers are not sensitive enough, and that having to hammer those buttons right down when you have dogshit reactions or a hand injury ain’t great. I honestly couldn’t believe it when we got the xbone, I’ve been able to change the sensitivity on a mouse for decades.
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Dec 30, 2022 22:57
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kecske posted:nobody is saying this There is a whole post directed at Bobby telling him the way neurotypical people work at things so they get better instead of giving up, when he was talking about his RSI.
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Dec 30, 2022 23:00
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learnincurve posted:There is a whole post directed at Bobby telling him the way neurotypical people work at things so they get better instead of giving up, when he was talking about his RSI. In fairness Bobby muddied the waters by with his weird attempt to bring ADHD into it
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Dec 30, 2022 23:02
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I’m just super sad/mad that I’ll never be able to play any assassin’s creed games 
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Dec 30, 2022 23:03
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You're not missing anything, they're shite
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Dec 30, 2022 23:04
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Reveilled posted:But I think what people have trouble understanding is that an artist does not owe you satisfaction, not even if you paid to view or participate in their work. If the point of the work is to satisfy you, then sure, an artist who fails to satisfy their audience has failed. For those artists, difficulty modes are a great idea, they help ensure everyone has a satisfying experience. The cognitive accessibility article I posted before quoted Miyazaki as saying he "wanted everyone to experience the joy of overcoming hardship," but the bar for what's hard and what's impossible is different for everyone, and if miyazaki's stated goal is for people to overcome hardship and there's a huge amount of people who haven't, he has explicitly failed in his stated goal, artist or not.
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Dec 30, 2022 23:06
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learnincurve posted:There is a whole post directed at Bobby telling him the way neurotypical people work at things so they get better instead of giving up, when he was talking about his RSI. He absolutely did talk about neurotypical and neurodivergent gamers, even linked an article about it ...
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Dec 30, 2022 23:08
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| # ? May 24, 2024 19:37 |
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I very, very strongly disagree with this, but I feel like I can't add any extra justification I haven't already added. A disabled person not being able to to something is different to an otherwise abled person being unable to do it, and it's right to help the disabled person. I don't think that's a controversial opinion to have? I would probably go the other way and say that for whatever reason a game puts you off playing it, that is non ideal and it would be better if people wanted to continue to play a game. People stopping playing games especially because they can't play them for some reason is something I would prefer to avoid. Bobby Deluxe posted:Alright, I'm going to jump on the grenade and ask at what point you think art gradates into entertainment and does have a responsibility to it's audience? You can't just say "everything is art and is therefore immune to the criticism that it's difficult to access." I would also say that artists absolutely have a responsibility to their audience, I don't at all buy the idea that published art is somehow exempt from responsibility, everything in the social sphere can and should be criticized on those grounds. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Dec 30, 2022 |
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