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Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Irony Be My Shield posted:

People keep saying this and then TCG players usually lose to the OCG players who are supposedly handicapping themselves at worlds. They play decks that don't hard lose to Maxx C because that stops them from losing to Maxx C

Isn't worlds even more different and weird though, from having to combine two formats with different card pools and banlists like that

Anyway, I'm not saying they're handicapping themselves. Not playing decks that lose to Maxx C is smart. If anything, TCG players are handicapping themselves in MD by being so focused on the combo that one little buggy boy makes them flip the table. Konami US has allowed for that behaviour by banning Maxx C for them

Dabir fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Dec 30, 2022

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ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

Charles Bukowski posted:

MD has become everything for many of us, who can afford cardboard or covid at an event?

3rd best deck in the meta, Floowandereeze, still very cheap.

Become what you must.

Hizke
Feb 14, 2010

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

3rd best deck in the meta, Floowandereeze, still very cheap.

Become what you must.

this

Syenite
Jun 21, 2011
Grimey Drawer

Dabir posted:

Isn't worlds even more different and weird though, from having to combine two formats with different card pools and banlists like that

Anyway, I'm not saying they're handicapping themselves. Not playing decks that lose to Maxx C is smart. If anything, TCG players are handicapping themselves in MD by being so focused on the combo that one little buggy boy makes them flip the table. Konami US has allowed for that behaviour by banning Maxx C for them

Maxx C isn't some fair card that people just make a big stink about it because they're babies, lol. For decks that special summon (that is, 99% of them because the entire game revolves around monsters) the card may as well read "(Quick Effect): Discard this card; End your opponent's turn." It's an obscenely powerful handtrap whose only counterplay is to either hard draw a couple extremely specific cards (1 of which is limited in the TCG, semi-limited in the OCG) or to just stop playing your turn and hope you don't die because you couldn't do anything. Well, that or ignore it and let them draw 6 cards and then DEFINITELY die.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

Tri B and pure lyrilusc are also pretty cheap. Been playing those at the locals I manage yo make it to.

Hizke
Feb 14, 2010

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Tri B and pure lyrilusc are also pretty cheap. Been playing those at the locals I manage yo make it to.

Hell yeah. It's basically full powered again.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

Hizke posted:

Hell yeah. It's basically full powered again.

The only expensive cards in lyrilusc are UFD and Zeus but I mean....if you ever run a deck with xyz Zeus is a worthwhile investment at like 10 bucks. UFD is hells of expensive though but you can get by with some substitution. Or running some trib is lyrilusc.

Hizke
Feb 14, 2010

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

The only expensive cards in lyrilusc are UFD and Zeus but I mean....if you ever run a deck with xyz Zeus is a worthwhile investment at like 10 bucks. UFD is hells of expensive though but you can get by with some substitution. Or running some trib is lyrilusc.

UFD actually just got the reprint in Crystal Revenge so it's like 5 bucks now, so now Zeus may be the only expensive card.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Syenite posted:

Maxx C isn't some fair card that people just make a big stink about it because they're babies, lol. For decks that special summon (that is, 99% of them because the entire game revolves around monsters) the card may as well read "(Quick Effect): Discard this card; End your opponent's turn." It's an obscenely powerful handtrap whose only counterplay is to either hard draw a couple extremely specific cards (1 of which is limited in the TCG, semi-limited in the OCG) or to just stop playing your turn and hope you don't die because you couldn't do anything. Well, that or ignore it and let them draw 6 cards and then DEFINITELY die.

Strange, I don't remember saying anything of those things you think I said. You're being very persuasive that you're not a giant baby though, good job

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

Hizke posted:

UFD actually just got the reprint in Crystal Revenge so it's like 5 bucks now, so now Zeus may be the only expensive card.

I gotta got to tcg player real quick

Regalingualius
Jan 7, 2012

We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.




Just wondering, is there an archetype name for Ash Blossom and the similar “discard to negate opponent’s activated effect” cards (I.E. Snow, the one that negates a graveyard to field effect)? Just asking because it always seemed kinda random to me that she’s also a Tuner.

Syenite
Jun 21, 2011
Grimey Drawer

Regalingualius posted:

Just wondering, is there an archetype name for Ash Blossom and the similar “discard to negate opponent’s activated effect” cards (I.E. Snow, the one that negates a graveyard to field effect)? Just asking because it always seemed kinda random to me that she’s also a Tuner.

It's a sort of pseudo-archetype called Yokai Girls, level 3 tuner handtraps Ash, Ghost Belle, Ghost Ogre, etc. You're thinking of Ghost Belle & Haunted Mansion, Fairy Tail Snow is the busted gy banish to summon/book of moon infinitely card.

https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Yo-kai_Girl

also look at this rad as hell alt-art ghost ogre

Syenite fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 30, 2022

King of Solomon
Oct 23, 2008

S S

Regalingualius posted:

Just wondering, is there an archetype name for Ash Blossom and the similar “discard to negate opponent’s activated effect” cards (I.E. Snow, the one that negates a graveyard to field effect)? Just asking because it always seemed kinda random to me that she’s also a Tuner.

People call them hand traps, and they include cards that aren't strictly negates (D.D. Crow being a strong example of a hand trap that doesn't technically negate). Ash Blossom is also part of a series of zombie tuner hand traps that are Ghost Girls.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Yeah there's one of each attribute. Weirdly Ghost Ogre is a psychic and can also be sent from field so it works with Emergency Teleport

Regalingualius
Jan 7, 2012

We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.




King of Solomon posted:

People call them hand traps, and they include cards that aren't strictly negates (D.D. Crow being a strong example of a hand trap that doesn't technically negate). Ash Blossom is also part of a series of zombie tuner hand traps that are Ghost Girls.

Oh, yeah, I already knew about hand traps in general, I was just wondering if the Yokai Girls were explicitly intended to also be part of some archetype of Synchros that I’d just never ran into, since I’ve sometimes seen Swordsoul use Ash as a clutch tuner for Fleur.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Ok, I understand the theory behind this Nephthys Majespecter solo deck, but it really doesn't work at all does it. The pure Nephthys deck from earlier felt like it was missing some important part of things, and this one still feels that way but also replaces half your draws with ones from a different deck. And it's up against Fire King Nepthys, which really really does work well together.

Charles Bukowski
Aug 26, 2003

Taskmaster 2023 Second Place Winner

Grimey Drawer
Hard to tell if its maliciousness or just contempt

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Regalingualius posted:

Oh, yeah, I already knew about hand traps in general, I was just wondering if the Yokai Girls were explicitly intended to also be part of some archetype of Synchros that I’d just never ran into, since I’ve sometimes seen Swordsoul use Ash as a clutch tuner for Fleur.

Ghost ogres just a little weird, i think they didnt have the themeing down at that point, and ash is where they figured out what they wanted to do.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

these solo mode Jaden decks are SO BAD

did just force a draw with a 13,700 damage Final Fusion against zane though

Julias
Jun 24, 2012

Strum in a harmonizing quartet
I want to cause a revolution

What can I do? My savage
nature is beyond wild

Dabir posted:

these solo mode Jaden decks are SO BAD

did just force a draw with a 13,700 damage Final Fusion against zane though

At least in this case it's intentional since they're mirroring the anime duels. They're all basically "Elemental Hero Sunrise" Turbo in order to win.

Julias
Jun 24, 2012

Strum in a harmonizing quartet
I want to cause a revolution

What can I do? My savage
nature is beyond wild
Speaking of Final Fusion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djRx_7LFgYo

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Julias posted:

At least in this case it's intentional since they're mirroring the anime duels. They're all basically "Elemental Hero Sunrise" Turbo in order to win.

JADEN'S deck mirrors the anime. zane's deck mirrors a loving full power 2022 cyber dragon deck

Regalingualius
Jan 7, 2012

We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.




So why is Called semi-limited while Maxx C is unlimited in MD? Considering Maxx C is essentially “have the out or die” incarnate.

Julias
Jun 24, 2012

Strum in a harmonizing quartet
I want to cause a revolution

What can I do? My savage
nature is beyond wild

Regalingualius posted:

So why is Called semi-limited while Maxx C is unlimited in MD? Considering Maxx C is essentially “have the out or die” incarnate.

Because it answers any hand trap, it's basically the ultimate counter, and is good going first or second. Plus it has lots of utility in just being able to banish cards out of your opponent's graveyard or being able to negate key monster effects if there's already a copy in the grave.

God I wish it was at 3.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Regalingualius posted:

So why is Called semi-limited while Maxx C is unlimited in MD? Considering Maxx C is essentially “have the out or die” incarnate.

My guess: because Called By eats EVERY hand trap. It's not just the out for Maxx C, but also Ash Blossom, Ghost Belle, Droll, Effect Veiler, and maybe even some real monsters if you're clever enough.

Also it's likely balanced more around the Japanese playerbase, and the Japanese playerbase is just much better at playing around Maxx C to the point where it's not an instant win. The western playerbase complains a lot about Maxx C, but they also never actually try not being a huge target for it.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Cleretic posted:

never actually try not being a huge target for it.

Nobody's not a big target for maxx C outside of specific exceptions like Floo. Your opponent only has to let you get 2 draws and you're already at a big advantage.
VW was a much bigger threat in the OCG because of that 1/3 chance of maxx c being enough to let them draw themselves out of their many brick hands.

Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Jan 3, 2023

Syenite
Jun 21, 2011
Grimey Drawer

Cleretic posted:

Also it's likely balanced more around the Japanese playerbase, and the Japanese playerbase is just much better at playing around Maxx C to the point where it's not an instant win. The western playerbase complains a lot about Maxx C, but they also never actually try not being a huge target for it.

I don't get this kind of post. How exactly do you "play around" Maxx C and why is the Japanese Playerbase (:rolleyes:) supposedly so good at countering a card that punishes any amount of special summoning?

You can play around Nibiru by getting a monster negate up as a 5th summon, you can't exactly counteract "every time I special summon anything this turn they draw for free" except by just not playing the game because special summoning is THE integral mechanic of the entire game as it stands right now.

Syenite fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jan 3, 2023

TaurusOxford
Feb 10, 2009

Dad of the Year 2021

Cleretic posted:

the Japanese playerbase is just much better at playing around Maxx C to the point where it's not an instant win.

How in the hell do you "play around" Maxx-C that isn't:

- end your turn and hope your opponent doesn't have the 1-card starter that can OTK you next turn
- play through it and hope your opponent's deck is so garbage they can't beat your board on the next turn even with a 20-card hand
- play Danger! Darkworld and deck your opponent out with Card Destruction

Justin_Brett
Oct 23, 2012

GAMERDOME put down LOSER
Well you see Japan hasn't banned it, so clearly there is no problem with the card

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

You play a deck that can achieve a reasonable endboard without too many summons. An obvious example would be Master Duel's current best deck in Despia, which only needs to special twice to set up Mirrorjade + Branded in Red.

Syenite
Jun 21, 2011
Grimey Drawer

Irony Be My Shield posted:

You play a deck that can achieve a reasonable endboard without too many summons. An obvious example would be Master Duel's current best deck in Despia, which only needs to special twice to set up Mirrorjade + Branded in Red.

Two summons is Pot of Greed, which is banned in OCG as well as TCG.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Yeah, it's a good effect for sure. But it doesn't win you the game on its own. It's not like opening Pot of Extravagance going second guarantees you're going to win.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Irony Be My Shield posted:

You play a deck that can achieve a reasonable endboard without too many summons. An obvious example would be Master Duel's current best deck in Despia, which only needs to special twice to set up Mirrorjade + Branded in Red.

And while nowhere near as strong in other respects (they really don't play well against something like Swordsoul), I found some pretty good Maxx C-fizzling success with Unchained, who could pretty naturally veer sideways from an on-my-turn link climb to a plan B built around taking control of my opponent's next turn. Of course Runick barely summons at all, and as mentioned, Floo is basically cheating.

Then there's the Mayakashi Bone Tower strategy where you actually hope they Maxx C so it helps the mill, but I admit that's not exactly meta and has a chance of backfiring even if it is very funny.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
If the new Time-Rending card ever caught on and everyone plays it, then hand trap meta will change. People will still pack maxx c though.

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jan 3, 2023

Syenite
Jun 21, 2011
Grimey Drawer

Nyaa posted:

If the new Time-Rending card ever caught on and everyone plays it, then hand trap meta will change. People will still pack maxx c though.

Nah, that card is not good. You lose out on ALL monster-in-hand effects permanently which is every handtrap except imperm and also engine stuff. For the cost of that, you get extra draws which don't start until your NEXT turn, and another normal, which most decks don't actually need.

It COULD be good in a lower power format for normal-focused decks, because there are fewer legal handtraps that you'd be giving up, so the drawback is less crippling, and the games last longer so you get more value.

Charles Bukowski
Aug 26, 2003

Taskmaster 2023 Second Place Winner

Grimey Drawer
There are formats where hand traps are less useful. There are decks that don't play hand traps

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Realistically it has to be a deck that:
- doesn't care about hand traps
- doesn't mind playing a card that is just Double Summon the turn you play it
- wants to play a longer game lasting at minimum 5 turns

It's possible such a deck is out there, but it's a niche card.

Syenite
Jun 21, 2011
Grimey Drawer

Charles Bukowski posted:

There are formats where hand traps are less useful. There are decks that don't play hand traps

Yes, I already mentioned lower-power formats, and even in the current tear format where you have a deck that can play through anything, you still really, really want D Shifter. And decks that don't play handtraps would certainly prefer to draw a Lightning Storm or Evenly Matched than a card that is basically just Double Summon that turn.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Realistically it has to be a deck that:
- doesn't care about hand traps
- doesn't mind playing a card that is just Double Summon the turn you play it
- wants to play a longer game lasting at minimum 5 turns

It's possible such a deck is out there, but it's a niche card.
Like Floo?

Once the card resolves, I imagine most meta deck would at least 1/3 bricked and some archtype that depends on hand effect will likely fold.

Edit: misread

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 3, 2023

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Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land




TaurusOxford posted:

How in the hell do you "play around" Maxx-C that isn't:

- end your turn and hope your opponent doesn't have the 1-card starter that can OTK you next turn
- play through it and hope your opponent's deck is so garbage they can't beat your board on the next turn even with a 20-card hand
- play Danger! Darkworld and deck your opponent out with Card Destruction

Take the Maxx C challenge like a real man and OTK or bust

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