|
Devor posted:You can't solve a society-wide problem with individual responsibility. It doesn't matter if My Sweet Johnny was true and pure enough to resist if they can consistently recruit some non-negligible number of vulnerable people. No one is saying it's not a problem, the first woman is saying the solution to that problem is not to abrogate men (i.e. adults) from the choices they make and the positions they hold. A supremacist ideology cannot be defeated with compassionate outreach.
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 21:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 15:10 |
|
|
DynamicSloth posted:No one is saying it's not a problem, the first woman is saying the solution to that problem is not to abrogate men (i.e. adults) from the choices they make and the positions they hold. A supremacist ideology cannot be defeated with compassionate outreach. The woman in the tweet isn't offering a solution, she's just ascribing deliberate and considered ideological choices to people who were most likely propagandized to in a very absolutist way. EDIT: the woman who's tweet is screen-shotted. Neo_Crimson fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 3, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 21:27
|
|
|
DynamicSloth posted:No one is saying it's not a problem, the first woman is saying the solution to that problem is not to abrogate men (i.e. adults) from the choices they make and the positions they hold. A supremacist ideology cannot be defeated with compassionate outreach. Here's the tweet: quote:i think to an extent this take is true, but it also ignores that a large portion of guys being radicalized by this content are pre/teen boys that dont understand any of this and are being politically indoctrinated by adult men; it's The Daily Stormer strategy To me this is pointing out that the pre/teen boys are being targeted before they can reasonably be expected to have defenses assembled (whether assembled by parents or society), which to me calls for restrictions on the speech that is targeting them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 21:39
|
|
|
Devor posted:Here's the tweet: Yeah the radicalization stuff from your Andrew Tates is the simple but wrong explanation for why you feel that vague feeling that everything sucks. The correct answer is more complicated and something that I totally understand that like teenagers don't get.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 21:45
|
|
|
Is it really just a vague feeling that everything sucks? I feel like there's gotta be some desperation somewhere in there. What causes that?
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 23:02
|
|
|
Neito posted:Alt-Right Playbook discusses this in "How to radicalize a normie", but a lot of it is that they make deradicalizing hard, and a political step, whereas falling further down the pipeline is easy and "apolitical". It's worth noting that this video is very left wing despite the title and is a good watch by a good creator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g also lol that it got an age-restrict on it
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 23:08
|
|
|
oliveoil posted:Is it really just a vague feeling that everything sucks? I feel like there's gotta be some desperation somewhere in there. What causes that? Teenagers are desperate all the time dude, for academic success, sports, social status, relationships, everything. There's very strong social pressures hit Important Milestones in all of those otherwise you'll permanently miss the boat in adulthood. This has only intensified as success is ever harder to achieve.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 23:40
|
|
|
Why is success harder to achieve now? Maybe if we figure out why then that could point to how to fix the root of the problem. Just make it easier to succeed and then there's way less room for grifters to exploit, no?
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 23:49
|
|
|
oliveoil posted:Why is success harder to achieve now? Maybe if we figure out why then that could point to how to fix the root of the problem. That’s the goal of leftist politics as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2023 23:54
|
|
|
Is it really? Are there any mainstream/establishment leftist politicians who explicitly appeal to the people who tend to get caught up in grifter funnels as part of their standard platform? Or is that mostly going happen once we live in an ideal world? I get the impression that politicians keep in mind the minimum voting groups they need to get elected and invest the minimum effort to win the support of those groups and I can't see any politician whose election depends on that elusive 14yo boy vote. I don't think the problem will get solved at this rate. No incentive for politicians to do it because they don't get any votes from it, no threat of getting beaten by a competitor who does. oliveoil fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jan 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 00:20
|
|
|
After watching what happened to Bernie in 2016 and 2020, I no longer believe that you are going to be able to make major changes through the political system. That ship has sailed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 00:28
|
|
|
many men are 14 years in mind and soul if not body. just look at the 50 year old white lumpy thing posting on birdsite.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 01:02
|
|
|
Yeah at this point i think the question should be "why are they radicalized in that direction, and how do we get them in this direction". Things are in fact looking pretty bad, and being "radical" in the sense you recognize drastic change needs to occur seems more logical than pretending this is going well. At the very least some understanding or compassion for the capture and indignity and misinformation we're all subject to. Hell, total lack of humanity robot brain still would see these people better utilized as allies than sacrificed to "the enemy".
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 02:12
|
|
|
oliveoil posted:Why is success harder to achieve now? Maybe if we figure out why then that could point to how to fix the root of the problem. I'm gonna point out again that it may not always specifically be real success that's hard to achieve, but there's a certain perception of success that is difficult if not impossible to measure up to for any average person. Social media makes it easy to constantly compare your life to an idealized version that someone else presents in an extremely curated way. It's been pretty well established that this has had a net negative effect on young people's perceptions of themselves. If you have an Andrew Tate standing in front of a bunch of expensive cars with beautiful women telling you that "things only suck because you're stuck in the matrix" and "follow me and I'll show you how to get what I have", it can be extremely effective in appealing to those insecurities that have already been fostered by a young person's social media diet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 03:43
|
|
|
oliveoil posted:Are there any mainstream/establishment leftist politicians No.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 03:56
|
|
|
shoeberto posted:I'm gonna point out again that it may not always specifically be real success that's hard to achieve, but there's a certain perception of success that is difficult if not impossible to measure up to for any average person. Social media makes it easy to constantly compare your life to an idealized version that someone else presents in an extremely curated way. It's been pretty well established that this has had a net negative effect on young people's perceptions of themselves. I think this is a huge part of the problem. My grandfather was a very successful man in most respects, and indeed his success has left me with considerable privilege, and his big thing was always "the roof over my head [a modest townhouse] is paid off, I'll never have to worry about putting food on the table, you and your dad and your aunt and your cousins will never have to worry about those things either [unless you really gently caress up and piss it away, or just decide not to work], and I can fly first class when I wish to travel, and buy a new Lincoln Continental every few years." Then he gave a bunch of money away to endow scholarships and such, because no one really needs all that money for themselves. Except for a few extravagances, like first-class tickets and a late-model American luxo-barge, he was a fairly humble guy, and to him, success was that we would never go through the poo poo he went through when he was younger and poorer, not to piss away money on nonsense. I suppose my real question here is: would that still be an aspiration for most people, or are there a large number of people who believe they need more beyond that? And, if so, what can we do about it?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 04:37
|
|
|
Capitalism and the American Way of Life (consumerism) are predicated on people always wanting more, and the entire marketing industry works tirelessly to make us believe it. Your grandpa had it right. Never having to worry about the essentials is the sane goal and an incredible luxury that the vast majority will never attain. Anything beyond that is gravy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 04:47
|
|
|
To some degree, previous generations weren’t radicalized so easily because middle-class propriety kept people too busy to absorb nazi messaging, even if they felt the same resentments. My father was extremely entitled and felt a lot of race hatred that made him rail against what he thought the welfare state was, but he was successful enough in his career that it took up most of his attention and energy, and he was happy enough to distract himself with a nice house, nice car etc, to say nothing of the obligation of a wife and kids which he felt was necessary for him to take on. If he had been born in the 90s instead of the 50s, he wouldn’t have had that career or that money, or a wife or kids, and his resentment would have been the only thing left.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 06:31
|
|
|
Mr Interweb posted:there's been a bit of an uproar on left twitter regarding boys/men getting radicalized. so who has the correct take here? i think both are right to a degree I know that "propaganda works" is the scarier proposition, but it is the bigger part of the current radicalization picture than some variation on "white men are inherently assholes". I AM GRANDO posted:To some degree, previous generations weren’t radicalized so easily because middle-class propriety kept people too busy to absorb nazi messaging As per the thread thesis: Whatever RWM these generations dealt with simply did not have the same ubiquity, intensity and coordination that we have had since the rise of FOX and Rush 30 years ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 13:48
|
|
|
I'm curious about how people that are close with kids handle this, how they deradicalize boys falling down the alt right pipeline. Because I fear that unless that kid already deeply respected you, anything you say will just prompt some canned response. A lot of this propiganda can feel empowering to someone insecure and without personal agency. Convincing them that what they are hearing is a lie can be hard-they didn't logic themselves into fashist pepe jokes about yeeting commies out of helicopters, and shaming them for it makes you look humorless and out of touch in that situation, not them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 14:19
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:I'm curious about how people that are close with kids handle this, how they deradicalize boys falling down the alt right pipeline. Because I fear that unless that kid already deeply respected you, anything you say will just prompt some canned response. I have worked really hard to try and keep my nephew from going that direction, and all I can say is that it's incredibly situational so there's no one-size-fits-all playbook. Every kid has their own temperament, their own home life, social environment, baggage, etc. One thing that I can say I feel confident about is that these kids need positive male role models that they're close to - someone completely non-judgmental and emotionally supportive - because otherwise that's what they're largely getting out of these parasocial relationships with alt-right influencers. I think I have maybe the best possible conditions to keep this kid out of the muck, and it's still hard. He lives in a rural area and has a lot of family that is hardcore Trumpers (he has a TAKE AMERICA BACK flag hanging in his room that I don't think he bought, but still, it's there - and it replaced a stars-and-bars flag that was up previously). But I've been close to him ever since he was born and have worked really hard to maintain a positive relationship with him ever since. I'm still having a hard time convincing him that Andrew Tate is a bad guy and that TikTok is full of propaganda. He's not ever gone full-throated alt-right but it's an ongoing thing. I have to have regular conversations that are difficult (but gentle) to try and defuse the alt-right talking points that he's clearly picking up online. It takes a lot of patience, a lot of emotional maturity, and a deep commitment to being invested in the person in a way that they might not be getting elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 15:20
|
|
|
oh, AND you have to be aware that all of this is happening online, so it's one of the few situations where my goony poisoned brain is actually helpful. I think the vast majority of people are completely oblivious to the fact that this is happening.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 15:22
|
|
|
shoeberto posted:I have worked really hard to try and keep my nephew from going that direction, and all I can say is that it's incredibly situational so there's no one-size-fits-all playbook. Every kid has their own temperament, their own home life, social environment, baggage, etc. One thing that I can say I feel confident about is that these kids need positive male role models that they're close to - someone completely non-judgmental and emotionally supportive - because otherwise that's what they're largely getting out of these parasocial relationships with alt-right influencers. For instance, I was pretty anti gun and didn't shoot or handle guns as a hobby or a career. My conservative younger brother is a vet and regularly hunts. So any debate about guns would reinforce that point, it would always come back to obscure gun trivia to reinforce that my humanities degree doesn't make me knowledgeable about this subject. As long as my brother had that gotcha he never needed to change his mind. And for a chuddy teen, who is young, they'll likely lean into this even more. They don't need to be wise and all knowing, merely possess some specific experience you don't.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:I think one challenge is that a lot of right wing rhetoric does this well poisoning by making leftists/liberals/communists/whatever other blanket term act like smug know it alls quick to talk over other people's experiences. Sure they might have gone to college but they never worked a "real" job. Anything the reactionary knows that the leftist doesn't will be weaponized as "gotchas". Guns are sort of the entry point for that strategy because it's a field where many people not used to guns really do speak from proud ignorance and make dumb reactionary proposals that anyone familiar with gun laws, gun crime, or gun use can easily shoot down, and which transparently are designed to win a culture war against gun owners rather than meaningfully reduce deaths. It's a weird anomaly where one step at a time what had been a right-wing reactionary form of gun control attached to the left and evaporated from the right when Reagan's generation died and conservatism shifted increasingly rural in its base and cultural rhetoric. That's also how the NRA ended up such a gateway into far-right ideology, since guns are only a small part of what they push these days. You target someone who isn't that politically engaged but knows guns, isn't afraid of them for just existing, and interprets gun crime stories through that familiarity. Then you point out "can you believe how pointless and useless that AWB is" or "Look at that idiot who thinks a standup comedy routine of 'if not gun control, how about bullet control?' can be a template for serious laws" and laugh at the liberals together without even being dishonest. Now that you're a cool guy that knows how things work (and they literally subscribed to your newsletter), you can start working in how those libs are just like this about everything else, and shift to the lies and projection. Those handouts they're giving or the illegals they're letting in, well, obviously it's the same deal where either they're well-intentioned but really dumb about the Real World, or else they want to control you and get one over on you just to ground us patriots into the dirt. Killer robot fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jan 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 16:30
|
|
|
Its getting nasty out there. Loomer turns on Greene. Theres also a few videos where Greene has turned on Gaetz. e: The Civil War is coming from inside the GOP. https://twitter.com/LauraLoomer/status/1610394457014157312 OgNar fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jan 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 17:43
|
|
|
I don’t know about Laura calling anyone washed-up. I guess she’s more of a never-was.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 17:47
|
|
|
Killer robot posted:Guns are sort of the entry point for that strategy because it's a field where many people not used to guns really do speak from proud ignorance and make dumb reactionary proposals that anyone familiar with gun laws, gun crime, or gun use can easily shoot down, and which transparently are designed to win a culture war against gun owners rather than meaningfully reduce deaths. It's a weird anomaly where one step at a time what had been a right-wing reactionary form of gun control attached to the left and evaporated from the right when Reagan's generation died and conservatism shifted increasingly rural in its base and cultural rhetoric. That's a good point, and I see a few other examples of this. A right winger that lives in a rural area -Will be more likely to be familiar with guns, and hobbies/careers that involve their use. -Will be more likely to be familiar with agriculture, hence they pull the same condescending poo poo to vegans and strawman PETA liberals. -Stereotypically more active and engaged in "trade" jobs that tend to be more hands on and concrete than more abstract careers like academics, art, etc. Basically the more they think it is something liberals shirk away from, the harder they'll lean into it. They want the self righteousness of feeling more connected to the things they think liberals take for grantEd -tasty food, high tech toys, and the infrastructure that supports all of it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 18:00
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Basically the more they think it is something liberals shirk away from, the harder they'll lean into it. They want the self righteousness of feeling more connected to the things they think liberals take for grantEd -tasty food, high tech toys, and the infrastructure that supports all of it. Which is also somewhat funny as the new brand of right-wing commentariat, your Charlies Kirk, your Bens Shapiro, your Stephens Crowder, and most recently your Matts Walsh, are all pussy little dweebs who perfectly match the Republican stereotype of the effete liberal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 18:09
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:Which is also somewhat funny as the new brand of right-wing commentariat, your Charlies Kirk, your Bens Shapiro, your Stephens Crowder, and most recently your Matts Walsh, are all pussy little dweebs who perfectly match the Republican stereotype of the effete liberal. They've always been like that. Have you not seen what William F. Buckley looked like?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 18:44
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:They've always been like that. Have you not seen what William F. Buckley looked like? True, but he was of the "Conservative Intellectual" era whereas now it's the red-blooded manly man. It's always been hollow as conservative intellectualism is just knowing how to dance around the n-word, but now these dweebs are pretending to be both the intellectual and the manly man when they're just, not. Like remember this? https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1385255517417844737
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
Did we ever find out if Ben returned that piece of wood after he was done owning the liberals or is it still in his garage tripping him every time he goes to his car?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 20:13
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:That's a good point, and I see a few other examples of this. A right winger that lives in a rural area Those sound like objectively useful traits and it's a shame they have any right wing connotation at all. Somebody becoming right wing because they are engaged in or enthusiastic about those things should be unacceptable and yet
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 21:05
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:True, but he was of the "Conservative Intellectual" era whereas now it's the red-blooded manly man. It's always been hollow as conservative intellectualism is just knowing how to dance around the n-word, but now these dweebs are pretending to be both the intellectual and the manly man when they're just, not. Like remember this? Yeah, Ben is also supposed to be an intellectual, and don't forget Buckley pretending to be tough by threatening Gore Vidal. Really, this whole thing goes back to a bunch of tidewater dandies donning fancy uniforms and declaring themselves the courageous defenders of a noble way of life.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 22:45
|
|
|
Lol that Buckley's entire dumb Patrician airs were deflated by getting called a nazi
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 22:58
|
|
|
Buckley made his name on being a prissy little snitch complaining that his professors didn’t push christianity hard enough in his classes. They’re all basically variations on Rod Dreher.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2023 23:08
|
|
|
This is me talking out of my rear end, but wouldn't a good starting place be to point out how little they have in common with conservative figureheads? Like "that guy's just a trust fund baby who bought his way into college and has never worked a real day's work in his life." Like confronting them about gun control out of nowhere is just going to make you look antagonistic, when maybe you're better off establishing a baseline of who is and isn't on their side? Imprint some class consciousness, for example.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2023 00:02
|
|
|
I think Trump's success has proved that conservatives don't give a poo poo who you are as long as you are saying what they want to hear.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2023 00:55
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:I think Trump's success has proved that conservatives don't give a poo poo who you are as long as you are saying what they want to hear. The secret of purity tests isn't how strict they are, or whether they are reasonable standards to judge someone by. It's that they're intrinsically arbitrary: you only test someone when you're looking for an excuse to fail them, and once you're looking for that you can always find it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2023 01:16
|
|
|
i forget if i mentioned this, but one of my closest friends fell down the alt-right rabbit hole in recent years (he's from El Salvador (but raised his whole life in the U.S.). he started off posting some really questionable poo poo on FB, from Gab of all places. i was giving him the benefit of the doubt as it was a post about gun control, and he liked guns so i figured it was only limited to that, and not the larger gab philosophy. but the more i saw and the more we spoke, the more clear it was made that he was turning hard right. when i realized this, it seemed surprising. we never really talked politics before, but i did recall us having conversations about trump being lovely. of course, i also realized that that by itself didn't mean much. before he'd never be able to tell you what his thoughts were on things like taxes, government spending, abortion, immigration policy or any substantial political issues. when that was made apparent, having surface level positions like being "anti-trump" is fairly meaningless and a person like that could swing in the other direction at a moment's notice. and in my friend's case, the more i thought about it, the more his shift seems completely unsurprising. he's always been sort of a loner, though not by choice. he wasn't great with social interactions, so his friend circle was extremely limited (consisting of literally just me and another one of our mutual friends). but at least back then he was just more of a depressed, awkward nerd. in recent years, he's noticeably become far more bitter and resentful. the lovely thing is i think i'm partly to blame for that, as i didn't talk to him much for a long time because i was dealing with my own issues regarding the pandemic and other personal problems. i mean, i dunno. maybe i'm giving myself too much credit, but i feel like without me around, he started watching rightwing nerd/geek culture content and fell into some dark places. regardless, just speaking to him now you can just feel the hatred he developed. the last couple of times we hung out, he couldn't stop complaining about how SJWs/feminists/the woke crowd/etc. were ruining gaming and anime. no matter how much i tried to steer the conversations away from politics, he would still somehow connect whatever we were talking about to his newfound agenda hating all things in his media attributed to the left. it became clear he couldn't shut up about that sort of poo poo so i decided to cut him off completely. the worst part is, i don't know if anything could be done about him now. i'm the kind of guy that doesn't mind arguing politics in real life, but at the same time, there are certain people i can't do it with. and my (former, i guess) friend here is one of them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2023 01:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 15:10 |
|
|
Gab is probably the worst of any of those right-wing social media places since when the Nazis and worst of the Chuds got banned from Twitter they mostly went over there. So I'm not at all surprised that this guy got radicalized by being on that site.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2023 01:33
|
|