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Nickoten posted:I don't think a consumer of average sophistication for the market the good is being sold in (the standard for this kind of action) would know that. drat, next time someone calls me basic, I'm going to say, "Forgive me, I am a consumer of average sophistication."
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Dec 22, 2022 21:50
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Yeah, but it changes the context he would have trademarked it under in the first place. If he was suing those other uses of Yomi, it'd be a pure lawsuit farm situation like the people who managed to get the trademark for video games with Edge in the name. So him only doing trademark stuff for this use of yomi is... honestly kind of nice? I mean I do think this, if it were true, would make him seem much more reasonable, and I get why you say this. It's just that Sirlin himself is saying the motivation was the opposite (that only the title matters, not the content): https://twitter.com/Sirlin/status/1605761666792112129?s=20&t=iBQw4lHWH3mhh2IUDQZbAA So I don't think the difference here is in Yomi Domini using yomi to mean "reading."
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Dec 22, 2022 22:03
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CitizenKeen posted:Is the OGL change being discussed in one of the many D&D threads, and if so, which one? It seems to have been drowned out here by lay people discussing IP law. (Thanks in advance.)
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Dec 22, 2022 22:12
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Nickoten posted:I mean I do think this, if it were true, would make him seem much more reasonable, and I get why you say this. It's just that Sirlin himself is saying the motivation was the opposite (that only the title matters, not the content): Yeah, other people have mentioned the... timing of all of this in other threads, which I didn't think about before now because I was giving Sirlin the benefit of the doubt for some reason. (Namely, that he's currently making Yomi 2 so clearly this RPG Maker game needs to be deleted from Steam days before the Winter Sale and this fighting game needs to change it's entire SEO, which makes it a lot worse than when I assumed he just randomly looked up one day and saw people using Yomi.)
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Dec 22, 2022 22:16
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CitizenKeen posted:Is the OGL change being discussed in one of the many D&D threads, and if so, which one? It seems to have been drowned out here by lay people discussing IP law. (Thanks in advance.) Also, the OGL change was discussed in this thread back here.
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Dec 22, 2022 22:17
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Yeah, other people have mentioned the... timing of all of this in other threads, which I didn't think about before now because I was giving Sirlin the benefit of the doubt for some reason. Were either of those games even doing numbers by the way? Some people described one of them as "viral" and affecting his SEO in the Twitter thread but I hadn't heard anything about it. But hey, maybe the silver lining is this will indirectly end up being good marketing for them?
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Dec 22, 2022 22:22
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Yomi Shuffle was actually going a bit viral, at least by indie game standards. Mostly because "turn-based fighting game that animates as a cool stick-figure fight when you're done" is a really solid hook. It's also the one with the clearest "this has conceptual overlap with Sirlin's Yomi" argument, as this thread has already proven. And also, good luck to Yomi Domini with their upcoming arguments in court about all of this. Random RPGMaker games deserve that much respect too.
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Dec 22, 2022 22:29
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Well at least I now know about Yomi Shuffle. I guess I'll get that cause it does sound like a fun idea. I'm also a fan of Mega Knockdown, another take on "not real-time fighting game", made by a goon.
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Dec 22, 2022 22:41
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Sajam has a video on his youtube channel of Yomi Hustle with 95k views so I'm sure that helped put some eyes on it. Kind of unfortunate to change the name a few weeks after that video came out though.
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Dec 22, 2022 22:55
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I understood this to be a cease and desist, not a lawsuit? I don't think anything's going to court. Lynx Winters posted:https://twitter.com/Sirlin/status/1603295451494555655 This looks to me like the maker of Yomi Hustle has already agreed to change the name, and also that it was infringing.
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Dec 22, 2022 22:58
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Leperflesh posted:I understood this to be a cease and desist, not a lawsuit? I don't think anything's going to court. Yeah, they did. It's now Your Only Move Is HUSTLE. And I probably misread the Yomi Domini devs' statement, because this is all I can definitely find. https://twitter.com/HorizonOminous/status/1605696551439024128
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Dec 22, 2022 23:06
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That Yomi Hustle tweet reads like a thing they agreed to do via private settlement. It doesn't matter, ultimately, just I dunno who would tweet out an agreement that they violated someone's rights in this situation if they didn't have to.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:10
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Yeah, they did. It's now Your Only Move Is HUSTLE. And I probably misread the Yomi Domini devs' statement, because this is all I can definitely find. A response to a DMCA is not necessarily a lawsuit, though it could lead to one if the fight continues to that scale. Basically they’re putting together a legal package to ask Steam to reinstate them because the DMCA was bullshit. Which it is, this is not the intended use of a DMCA takedown in the slightest and they weren’t using his copyrighted material. DMCA takedown has nothing to do with trademark.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:11
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Steam does have a Trademark form you can fill out; I'm guessing they did that and the Yomi Domini creator just figured DMCA means any kind of notice and takedown system since it gets used that way on the internet.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:14
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Also possible, yeah.
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Dec 22, 2022 23:44
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Yeah, my main takeaway from all this is that we wouldn't be this mad if it was anyone besides Sirlin. That’s not true. I also hate the guy who trademarked the word edge.
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Dec 23, 2022 07:28
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Yeah, my main takeaway from all this is that we wouldn't be this mad if it was anyone besides Sirlin. This whole situation is annoying but fine when you remove all the names, you know? "A guy who helped popularize a term in the North American FGC named a game after it, and now a cool game named itself a bit too similarly so it needs to change its name" is... fine. Annoying, but fine. It's the legal system working as intended. There's a few stacked issues here, I think. 1. Trademarking use of a normal Japanese word or concept is pretty lame. 2. IP laws in general are poo poo, and even if this is legally above-board it's a dick move to do. Maybe if anyone could afford to fight back, then it would shake out that "yomi" can't be protected this way, but that's months of years of legal muckraking and money down the drain to find out. 3. The targets here that would need to fight it are people who cannot on a practical level. They're small one-person game developers who just want to sell their games, and had their Steam storefronts hosed with ahead of one of the busiest times on Steam, plus now have to change the names of their games and that'll lead to confusion for people trying to search up the game to buy. These would all be lovely no matter if it was another person or some big corporation going after the use of "yomi" in games. Though the added final factor of "4. Sirlin himself is a dillweed nobody likes anyway" magnifies it. The way he's appropriated the concept of "yomi" and branded a game around it, or the way Yomi and Fantasy Strike both lift character designs and concepts from fighting game characters and defends the copying as "remix culture" when if Capcom or SNK cared to go after him, he'd lose, adds to people's anger: https://twitter.com/JohnXuandou/status/1605736936504979456
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Dec 25, 2022 19:44
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Anyone know the story behind Troll Lord Games saying they don't talk about politics. Which very pointedly does not seem to actually talk about whatever is they are talking about? Facebook indicates an employee yelled anti some anti-vaccers lunatics and they they yelled at Troll Lord Games, but anyone know the full story?
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Jan 2, 2023 11:39
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From what I understand the employee had to remove their post and apologise. This is another case of the 'there are two sexualities : straight and political' meme in action
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Jan 2, 2023 11:47
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Yeah, a (presumably freelance) author tweeted something along the lines of "people who refuse to get vaccinated and go to conventions are assholes." He was "reminded" of Troll Lord's policy that they're a "no political talk" company and if you want to talk politics publicly you have to never mention you work for them, not even in your Twitter bio apparently. Of course, the owner of Troll Lord's personal Facebook is a mixture of stuff about Troll Lord and his own right-wing horseshit. Angrymog posted:From what I understand the employee had to remove their post and apologise.
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Jan 2, 2023 15:31
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Remind me to never buy anything from them.
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Jan 2, 2023 16:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:Troll Lord was the one where the designer for their main game (Castles & Crusades) got banned from rpg.net for saying that urbex was the modern dungeoneering and homeless people were the orcs
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Jan 4, 2023 00:55
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Goddamn.
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Jan 4, 2023 02:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:Troll Lord was the one where the designer for their main game (Castles & Crusades) got banned from rpg.net for saying that urbex was the modern dungeoneering and homeless people were the orcs I remember when C&C was the OSR darling of the day. I ended up getting a copy based on hype and it was kinda dogshit? Like not even AD&D with the serial numbers filed off - it had all the charm removed, too.
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Jan 4, 2023 03:39
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Wrong thread
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Jan 4, 2023 04:10
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No you're right - even a straight read of C&C reveals it as a convoluted mess. I wouldn't recommend it for an OSR system even outside of the author's poo poo opinions
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Jan 4, 2023 04:10
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As I recall, the big merit of Castles and Crusades was supposed to be the "SEIGE engine," a unified mechanic for ability checks. It was wonky and convoluted and many other games have done better at this point.
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Jan 4, 2023 04:44
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Each class in Castles & Crusades has a "prime attribute", such as Strength for a Fighter, or Constitution for a Barbarian. The player then gets to select one more prime attribute of their choice, and Humans get to pick a third. All other attributes are considered "secondary" if a player is doing something that would require a roll, the DM (C&C calls them the "Castle Keeper") assigns the task a "Challenge Base" of 12, if the task is being attempted by a character whose prime attribute is applicable to the task, or 18 otherwise the DM then has to assign a "Challenge Level". The Player's Handbook says that the Challenge Level can correspond to the hit die of the monster or NPC involved, or the level of the caster who cast a spell in dispute, or the level of the creature that set the trap that is trying to be disarmed, and so on. Otherwise, the Handbook says a Challenge Level of 1 to 5 is appropriate for "easy" tasks, or 6 to 10 for difficult tasks, or 11 to 15 for heroic tasks, with the DM advised to err on the side of setting Challenge Levels on the easier side the Challenge Base and the Challenge Level are added together, and the sum is called the Challenge Class then, the player will roll a d20, add their character level to the roll, and add their attribute modifier* to the roll (and any other modifiers), and they will succeed if the roll is greater than or equal to the challenge class the example cited is a level 5 Fighter with 16 Strength attempting to push over a statue to crush a kobold underneath: the Challenge Base is 12 because the act of pushing-over a statue pertains to Strength, and Strength is a prime attribute for a Fighter. The Challenge Level is set to 4 because it is supposedly a "simple-to-difficult task". This gives us a Challenge Class of 16. The Fighter's player rolls a d20, and gets an 11. Adding the character level of 5, and the Strength modifier of +2 gives a final result of 18, which is greater than 16, so the player succeeds. ___ * mind you, this is using OSR rules, so modifiers are a +1 with a 13 to 15, +2 with a 16 to 17, and +3 with an attribute of 18. And attributes are generated with a 3d6 roll
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Jan 4, 2023 06:11
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I get the feeling that C&C got a lot of its popularity due to the fact that for a while it was pretty much the only (physically) published OSR game around?
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Jan 4, 2023 07:23
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Comrade Koba posted:I get the feeling that C&C got a lot of its popularity due to the fact that for a while it was pretty much the only (physically) published OSR game around? technically C&C was a little ways into OSR already having been established as A Thing, so as far as being published, it would have been competing with the likes of OSRIC and Swords & Wizardry, etc. as far as I can tell, C&C was popular because it was marketed fairly well. Up until today I still get regular emails for promos and deals and sales, and there's been numerous 'editions' and reprints of C&C
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Jan 4, 2023 08:36
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they're on seven?
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Jan 4, 2023 09:14
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if you ever get a chance for free they published a book of new classes, and the class write-ups are incredible, just the most generic fantasy descriptions possible, barely if at all related to what the class is or does
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Jan 4, 2023 09:17
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gradenko_2000 posted:technically C&C was a little ways into OSR already having been established as A Thing, so as far as being published, it would have been competing with the likes of OSRIC and Swords & Wizardry, etc. Took a quick look and it looks like C&C came out in 2004, OSRIC was released in 2006 but wasn’t available in print until 2009. S&W first came out in 2008. I think it’s fair to say it had a pretty good head start. gradenko_2000 posted:as far as I can tell, C&C was popular because it was marketed fairly well. Up until today I still get regular emails for promos and deals and sales, and there's been numerous 'editions' and reprints of C&C Also very true. You can still find physical copies of C&C in game stores. As far as I can tell a lot of other OSR stuff is still effectively PDF-only or possibly POD, which means you won’t see copies at stores, online or physical. (No, I’m not mad that the OSE people still haven’t been able to figure out EU shipping, why do you ask?)
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Jan 4, 2023 11:46
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Comrade Koba posted:Took a quick look and it looks like C&C came out in 2004, OSRIC was released in 2006 but wasn’t available in print until 2009. S&W first came out in 2008. I think it’s fair to say it had a pretty good head start. oh huh, I stand corrected! thanks for fact-checking me, truly
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Jan 4, 2023 11:53
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Comrade Koba posted:(No, I’m not mad that the OSE people still haven’t been able to figure out EU shipping, why do you ask?) Which is really F-ing stupid because they used to have a UK web store, and they're UK based. Then they hooked up with Exalted Funeral who have been promising a UK/EU webstore any day now for at least two years. Really wonder why they don't go with Melsonian Arts Council, Soulmuppet, or even one of the big boys like Modiphius or Cubicle 7.
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Jan 4, 2023 11:54
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Angrymog posted:Which is really F-ing stupid because they used to have a UK web store, and they're UK based. Then they hooked up with Exalted Funeral who have been promising a UK/EU webstore any day now for at least two years.
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Jan 4, 2023 12:01
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https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1610405307561443333
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Jan 4, 2023 14:10
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I just saw this. The five games that were cancelled were unannounced and no names have been given in any of the articles I saw, and 15 people have been laid off though apparently they're "free to reapply for other jobs within the company." That's a pretty big swing in projects though, especially considering all the talk about D&D being "under-monetized."
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Jan 4, 2023 14:38
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Their in-house VG output has mostly been shovelware so far. They'd probably be better off borrowing strategy from modern Games Workshop and granting a license to most people who ask.
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Jan 4, 2023 15:15
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Yeah 5 games and 15 people suggests mobile shovelware to me as well.
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Jan 4, 2023 15:18
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