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John Murdoch posted:Of the modern Bethesda games, the biggest issues for me were: I got poo poo to do, I absolutely do not want to be taking 5-10+ minutes to get to the same places over and over again you psycho.
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Jan 7, 2023 20:57
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| # ? May 23, 2024 12:45 |
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I think you misread something. Weirdly hostile response either way. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 21:05
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They allow this now that Elon Musk owns twitter. For real though, it might help him get a non lovely build.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:12
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RandomBlue posted:I got poo poo to do, I absolutely do not want to be taking 5-10+ minutes to get to the same places over and over again you psycho. Silt Striders will remember that
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Jan 7, 2023 21:13
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I rather liked the Morrowind model where modern "fast travel" didn't exist, but you ultimately still had plenty of options for traveling from Point A to Point B. So you could walk there, or pay for a boat or silt strider ride, or you could visit the Mage's guild and get teleported to a nearby guild point, or you could get the propylon indices working, or you could hack together a spell and fly there, or you could launch yourself clear across the map with something like the scrolls of Icarian Flight, or...
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Jan 7, 2023 21:14
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Real problem is devs make these huge open worlds and got nothing to put in them
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Jan 7, 2023 21:17
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John Murdoch posted:I think you misread something. I do not actually think you're a psycho and I understand what you wrote just fine, the weirdly hostile part was a joke. I don't like when games don't respect my time and IMO it's not fun to walk/run/drive the same path 50 times instead of being able to fast travel once I've travelled there already. Though for an RPG I like a chance at random encounters when fast travelling.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:23
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kazil posted:Real problem is devs make these huge open worlds and got nothing to put in them Games should learn from Elden Ring. Why have empty space in your open world when you can have dozens of poison swamps instead.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:25
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RandomBlue posted:I do not actually think you're a psycho and I understand what you wrote just fine, the weirdly hostile part was a joke. I don't like when games don't respect my time and IMO it's not fun to walk/run/drive the same path 50 times instead of being able to fast travel once I've travelled there already. Though for an RPG I kinda like a chance at random encounters when fast travelling. I think you misunderstand - in Oblivion, you can fast travel to any city on the map as soon as you're done with the tutorial. John Murdoch played the game instead as if they could only fast travel to those places after first going there by foot, like any other non-city map marker in Oblivion. They didn't drop fast travel completely. (That reminds me, do the wagons outside cities in Skyrim allow you to travel to any city from the start, or only cities you have visited?)
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Jan 7, 2023 21:26
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I thiink Skyrim does the same thing where you can fast travel to every hold by default (and there's the wagon service for a more diegetic method) but it always slips my mind because it's just so antithetical to how I play that I never actually realized it during my playthrough, only learning well afterwards, then subsequently forgetting again. FWIW, I'm otherwise fine with fast travel. edit: I typed this before seeing the last few posts yet it synched up almost perfectly, neat.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:29
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I rarely use fast travel in open world games unless I'm at the very end and just pingponging around for the last couple things I need. Otherwise be patient and enjoy the view!
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Jan 7, 2023 21:30
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John Murdoch posted:Though I'm also perfectly fine with the compass existing as long as it's not the primary way I'm navigating*; following the terrain/landmarks/POIs while knowing I'm not completely off track is my preferred style. I think once the compass exists it requires a real effort from the developers to not lean on it and go through the extra effort to write the necessary dialog or whatever. With todays huge open world games do the people doing the quests (especially sidequests) even know where they'll end up in the game? I could imagine stuff gets developed as much in parallel as possible, so you just scatter quests evenly accross the map towards the end of the dev cycle.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:31
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The last few games I've played I've preferred to walk/drive/ride and don't fast travel very often. I'm a completionist and I want to find those "in betweens" and random encounters. I don't care how people play their games though, and devs giving more options is better. If it's an option and you can't rely on your self restraint or need everyone else to obey your purity clause that's clearly a 'you' thing. Note: I am not addressing anyone in this post
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Jan 7, 2023 21:34
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John Murdoch posted:I thiink Skyrim does the same thing where you can fast travel to every hold by default (and there's the wagon service for a more diegetic method) but it always slips my mind because it's just so antithetical to how I play that I never actually realized it during my playthrough, only learning well afterwards, then subsequently forgetting again.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:40
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RandomBlue posted:I don't like when games don't respect my time number 1 phrase for the worst people in the world to use to legitimise why they like dogshit game design
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Jan 7, 2023 21:50
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Stux posted:number 1 phrase for the worst people in the world to use to legitimise why they like dogshit game design Any examples of the "dogshit game design" that people try to legitimize with that phrase?
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Jan 7, 2023 21:58
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Apparently fast travel since that's all I've mentioned. I'm fine with unlockable fast travel, which is how almost every game handles it, being able to go everywhere immediately sounds bad but I've never played a game that does that, that I can recall. As mentioned in Skyrim you pay for someone to take you between cities but I wouldn't call that immediately available fast travel. You have to go to one of the hubs first, go the wagon master or whatever and pay to get to the other city. RandomBlue fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 22:01
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Jack Trades posted:Any examples of the "dogshit game design" that people try to legitimize with that phrase? can you read? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 7, 2023 22:03
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I thought that Stux had an actual point to make for once but no, it was just Stux making Stux posts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 7, 2023 22:09
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if you're going to do an open world the open world needs to matter to the game other than just having a lot of space where you can walk around. navigating it needs to have some player involvement outside of 'point horse/car' and maybe sometimes 'shoot guy' but most open world games are just wasted space. further because almost every open world in games is completely dead outside of enemies patrolling camps. see things like morrowind, gravity rush 2, or death stranding for times when it's actually utilized well, or even stuff like space rangers or mount in blade if you want to go more of the 'playing inside a 4x game' type route
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Jan 7, 2023 22:11
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Jack Trades posted:I thought that Stux had an actual point to make for once but no, it was just Stux making Stux posts. 
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Jan 7, 2023 22:15
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Talk about games respecting my time then I play like 90% survival crafting games. Don't @ me.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:18
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My time is not especially valuable.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:19
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I've found that I'm okay with an otherwise-sparse open world if it nails the vibes. I guess I wouldn't call Witcher 3's world empty, but it's not the most "engaging" or whatever. Nonetheless it's one of my favorite open worlds because I just enjoy walking around it soaking in the atmosphere. Probably 20 of my hundreds of hours in that game are just trotting down a road in Skellige or sitting on top of the walls in Kaer Morhen listening to the music and the wind and feeling (oddly, given the game) at peace in its beauty. I also don't really care for fast travel so if you can nail a cool world to exist in then I'm very happy to take a long time traversing it.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:20
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Personally I love fast travel. I can walk in real life big deal
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Jan 7, 2023 22:34
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I do hate it when games don't respect my time but usually that just means stuff like having like a four second animations to open the menu when I have to do that multiple times per minute. Making you do stuff in-game that actually takes time and effort instead of short-circuiting everything into a bland sequence of "and then this happened, and then this happened, ..." isn't disrespecting your time.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:36
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I think they should institute fast travel in real life but in games you get to take your time looking at the scenery 
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Jan 7, 2023 22:38
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I just think "don't respect your time" is a weird way of looking at something. Nothing inherently does or doesn't respect your time - things are made a certain way for a certain reason, and if you don't like that decision it's fine and maybe the game isn't for you, but it doesn't mean it doesn't respect you. Just say you don't like X game dev decision and move on. And (I think) to Stux's prior point, I do hate when it's invoked to criticize a game that intentionally has lulls in its story or moment-to-moment gameplay. Games, music, movies whatever should have downtime, room to breathe and just exist. I don't want go go go all the time.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:50
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thats right
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Jan 7, 2023 22:55
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Fast travel should cost some medium priority resource (in a good game with a a good open world) so that players are incentives to actually travel between spots on the map.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:57
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i just want the relic challenges in metal hellsinger to reset faster when I fail them
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Jan 7, 2023 22:57
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GhostDog posted:I think once the compass exists it requires a real effort from the developers to not lean on it and go through the extra effort to write the necessary dialog or whatever. It requires that the quest writers coordinate with whatever department is doing world design so it also needs a certain level of coordination and communication which I think a lot of larger studios lack for various reasons. Just pretend this post is about Stux if you want but I think that's less interesting
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Jan 7, 2023 22:58
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When I think about a game not respecting my time, it's usually in reference to what the game has me doing, and the first commandment of Tim Rogers: "Thou shalt not presume the player has nothing better to do than play your game." Because I do have something better to do, even if it's just playing a different game. There's a kind of busywork some games lob at you, sometimes optional, sometimes not; things to do in our video game so you have more things to do. I see this in a lot of Ubisoft-style open world games. Climb every mountain for a checkbox. Collect every thermos. There's 300 of them scattered across the map. No hints, no puzzles, no challenges, sometimes even no benefits or unlockables. You'll get an achievement though. You like those, right? And yes, usually it's optional, but that's besides the point. They put something tedious to do in their game with the barest of incentives to actually do it, with the expectation (and understanding) someone, somewhere will do it. That person might not be me, but it's still bad practice.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:01
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Anno posted:I just think "don't respect your time" is a weird way of looking at something. Nothing inherently does or doesn't respect your time - things are made a certain way for a certain reason, and if you don't like that decision it's fine and maybe the game isn't for you, but it doesn't mean it doesn't respect you. Just say you don't like X game dev decision and move on. Unskippable cutscenes are the epitome of a game not respecting my time, especially the second time around (after a death, etc..).
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Jan 7, 2023 23:03
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Impermanent posted:Fast travel should cost some medium priority resource (in a good game with a a good open world) so that players are incentives to actually travel between spots on the map. Nah. Either your world is interesting enough the player wants to do that without the cost, or you're just punishing someone who doesn't want to see the same boring thing again for the 20th time. Often both, if you have a well fleshed out world but someone is going back through it.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:03
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There are plenty of games that have a gently caress ton of mandatory grinding because they don't respect their player's time.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:04
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Bad Seafood posted:When I think about a game not respecting my time, it's usually in reference to what the game has me doing, and the first commandment of Tim Rogers: "Thou shalt not presume the player has nothing better to do than play your game." Because I do have something better to do, even if it's just playing a different game. There's a kind of busywork some games lob at you, sometimes optional, sometimes not; things to do in our video game so you have more things to do. I see this in a lot of Ubisoft-style open world games. Climb every mountain for a checkbox. Collect every thermos. There's 300 of them scattered across the map. No hints, no puzzles, no challenges, sometimes even no benefits or unlockables. You'll get an achievement though. You like those, right? lol how are you going to be upset about something optional that somebody that isn't you might do?
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Jan 7, 2023 23:04
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Bad Seafood posted:When I think about a game not respecting my time, it's usually in reference to what the game has me doing, and the first commandment of Tim Rogers: "Thou shalt not presume the player has nothing better to do than play your game." Because I do have something better to do, even if it's just playing a different game. There's a kind of busywork some games lob at you, sometimes optional, sometimes not; things to do in our video game so you have more things to do. I see this in a lot of Ubisoft-style open world games. Climb every mountain for a checkbox. Collect every thermos. There's 300 of them scattered across the map. No hints, no puzzles, no challenges, sometimes even no benefits or unlockables. You'll get an achievement though. You like those, right? tim rogers is a stupid bitch
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Jan 7, 2023 23:05
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kazil posted:lol how are you going to be upset about something optional that somebody that isn't you might do?
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Jan 7, 2023 23:11
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I don't think it's that wild to suggest a lot of modern game design trends lean towards manipulative skinner box behaviors, some of which are so nakedly "Here is a thing to do to check a box" that they don't even have the illusion of being worthwhile or interesting on their own. And these trends cost money. They take development time and resources. Someone, maybe several someones, stayed overnight implementing this stuff when they could have gone home, or made an actually fun game. I think that's a valid reason to dislike something even if it's not my problem.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:18
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