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What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed. |
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| 🦋 |
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15 | 3.71% |
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115 | 28.47% |
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12 | 2.97% |
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67 | 16.58% |
| dragonfly |
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94 | 23.27% |
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14 | 3.47% |
| 🐝 |
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87 | 21.53% |
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Ytlaya posted:edit: Your argument here is literally "because a non-zero number of non-US-aligned countries exist, it shows that the US doesn't really have any power over them because People Have Agency." This is a very stupid argument! Especially in a world where the US has repeatedly succeeded in exercising influence over far more countries than those in which it's failed to do so. It's some bizarre geopolitical version of the bootstraps argument, where nations are assumed by default to be accurate represents of The Will of Their People. I want to be clear here that what you're saying is very wrong and stupid, beyond the sort of disagreements that usually come up in this thread. That’s not what I’m saying at all, and that’s probably my fault for phone posting while doing some household chores. I think the US has a tremendous amount of influence, often malign. Hell, the US propped up dictators who expressly didn’t reflect the will of the people at times. But people take that way too far and assume it’s always puppetmasters the whole way down. The people who make that logical leap include pro-US people as well as anti-US people.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:29
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I too used to think it was naive to assume the US was an evil puppetmaster. then it briefly became my job to drive and bodyguard state department officials and briefcases full of cash to warlords in Iraq. owned.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:30
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mlmp08 posted:That’s not what I’m saying at all. I think the US has a tremendous amount of influence, often malign. Hell, the US propped up dictators who expressly didn’t reflect the will of the people at times. But people take that way too far and assume it’s always puppetmasters the whole way down. The people who make that logical leap include pro-US people as well as anti-IS folks. it’s kind of like a horseshoe if you think about it
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Jan 7, 2023 21:30
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Best Friends posted:I too used to think it was naive to assume the US was an evil puppetmaster. then it briefly became my job to drive and bodyguard state department officials and briefcases full of cash to warlords in Iraq. owned. I think the US makes the attempt at puppet mastery far more often than it actually succeeds.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:31
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mlmp08 posted:That’s not what I’m saying at all, and that’s probably my fault for phone posting while doing some household chores. I think the US has a tremendous amount of influence, often malign. Hell, the US propped up dictators who expressly didn’t reflect the will of the people at times. But people take that way too far and assume it’s always puppetmasters the whole way down. The people who make that logical leap include pro-US people as well as anti-IS folks. You constantly downplay the amount of influence the US MIC exerts and talk about agency like geopolitical bootstraps, whether you intend to use the argument that way or not it's what you do. Acknowledging that it's stupid but continuing to do it doesn't get you anything e: and then in the very next post you downplay it again by trying to talk down the extent to which you think the US is successful at it lol. You suck
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Jan 7, 2023 21:33
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lol speaking of the British Empire the arguments being made itt are almost verbatim those made surrounding involvement in Egypt and the Sudan from the 1880’s on. e: Three Empires on the Nile: The Victorian Jihad, 1869-1899 is the most readable and general history. It’s like an episode of Blowback. TEotN posted:A secular regime is toppled by Western intervention, but an Islamic backlash turns the liberators into occupiers. Caught between interventionists at home and fundamentalists abroad, a prime minister flounders as his ministers betray him, alliances fall apart, and a runaway general makes policy in the field. As the media accuse Western soldiers of barbarity and a region slides into chaos, the armies of God clash on an ancient river and an accidental empire arises. “No, no these people aren’t our puppets. Their rulers naturally align to our economic interest. The public all supports us except for bandits and thugs. We have an equitable relationship between free nations, not an empire. ” Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 21:40 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 21:35
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mlmp08 posted:I think the US makes the attempt at puppet mastery far more often than it actually succeeds. sure, you don’t make all the shots you take. But one side gets money rained down on them and gets puff pieces in friendly media about being moderate rebels and the other side gets hunted by those moderate rebels and our moderate allies to establishment media blackouts. that’s a very strong hand on the scale.
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Jan 7, 2023 21:40
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Best Friends posted:sure, you don’t make all the shots you take. But one side gets money rained down on them and gets puff pieces in friendly media about being moderate rebels and the other side gets hunted by those moderate rebels and our moderate allies to establishment media blackouts. that’s a very strong hand on the scale. You won't ever catch him with stuff like this because we all know that real life isn't like a game of total war or civilization. You don't pick up the unit and move them across the map, which is exactly what he is arguing against. mlmp08 posted:Clicking "bookmark" on a logical fallacy website must be the result of a long and wild online trip. if you misrepreseent my point and then argue against it, what type of fallacy is that?
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Jan 7, 2023 21:47
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Lostconfused posted:https://twitter.com/AngelaBubelyak/status/1610625407723634689 A journalist for a Finnish newspaper did a good thread recently on the number of Leo 2s that could realistically be sent to Ukraine by NATO countries. It seems like 2, optimistically 3 battalions' worth could be sent (so 80-120). Considering that its peacetime readiness rate is like ~60% for Western militaries and the fact that they wouldn't be sent all at once, I doubt Ukraine would be ever able to operate much more than a battalion. https://twitter.com/J_JHelin/status/1611173839265742849 https://twitter.com/J_JHelin/status/1611212714155687936
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Jan 7, 2023 21:50
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I mean I question whether national groups should have agency at all seems like a not great organization
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Jan 7, 2023 21:54
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Frosted Flake posted:lol speaking of the British Empire the arguments being made itt are almost verbatim those made surrounding involvement in Egypt and the Sudan from the 1880’s on. Who writes this poo poo? "first modern Islamic state" "American military involvement in the Islamic world is the beginning of a new era for America"
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Jan 7, 2023 21:55
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Jan 7, 2023 21:58
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Weka posted:Who writes this poo poo? The publishers do. Good manuscripts are bundled for the middlebrow, it's the nature of the beast.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:09
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https://twitter.com/Levi_godman/status/1611804145652240384 dying for oil is old news now it's time to die for salt
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Jan 7, 2023 22:11
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Danann posted:dying for oil is old news now it's time to die for salt dying for Caesar’s salt profits is older
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Jan 7, 2023 22:13
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those salt mines do look amazing
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Jan 7, 2023 22:14
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Ah we're back to Soledar memes.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:42
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Danann posted:https://twitter.com/Levi_godman/status/1611804145652240384 News from the 1st Century.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:54
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I honestly don't know what point mlmp is trying to make, it seems to start with "only conspiracy theorists think the American government uses puppet regimes" ==> "the US used puppet regimes but they tend to fail". If you want to make the argument that puppets are more complicated than just a slave/master dynamic I think a better example would be Saudi Arabia which not only refuses to tow the line but directly funded the 9/11 terrorists and is currently negotiating with the BRICS bloc.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:55
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Danann posted:https://twitter.com/Levi_godman/status/1611804145652240384 If Ukraine does not take all it's territory back, the salt market will be flooded with supply anyway thanks to reddit and twitter.
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Jan 7, 2023 22:59
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Plucky little US 
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Jan 7, 2023 23:00
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I honestly don't know what point mlmp is trying to make, it seems to start with "only conspiracy theorists think the American government uses puppet regimes" ==> "the US used puppet regimes but they tend to fail". Saudi is what happens when the people with the money call every shotcaller in the US and tell them, "I'll give you a million bucks not to coup me." There are some realpolitik reasons to coup them, but it's easier, less chancy, and more profitable not to.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:00
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Danann posted:https://twitter.com/Levi_godman/status/1611804145652240384 retvrn
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Jan 7, 2023 23:03
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Yeah, TB is difficult to kick, I would imagine that latent TB (is not uncommon in parts of the former Soviet Union) is becoming active as the immune system of soldiers gets weakened by the elements and probably a fairly poor diet. It is difficult to diagnose (usally a x-ray machine is used in that part of the world) and as a bacteria ot can last continually eventually dragging down the immune system of the infected. You really don't want to just leave it with people since it is both highly contagious as one would expect and has a 50% death rate untreated. It is treatable with antibitoics but it often takes weeks if not months of continued use supportive medication. Once someone has it, you probably can't just send them back to the line for quite a while.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:23
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I honestly don't know what point mlmp is trying to make, it seems to start with "only conspiracy theorists think the American government uses puppet regimes" ==> "the US used puppet regimes but they tend to fail". Funding 9-11 WAS toeing the line. Zeroisanumber posted:Saudi is what happens when the people with the money call every shotcaller in the US and tell them, "I'll give you a million bucks not to coup me." There are some realpolitik reasons to coup them, but it's easier, less chancy, and more profitable not to. What possible government could result that would be better for the interests of the USA state? Only a weaker government would be more subservient and a weaker government would be less effective at fighting Iran and supporting Israel.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:46
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Soledar O’Bryansk
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Jan 8, 2023 00:09
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Shaping Identity in Eastern Europe and Russia: Soviet and Polish Accounts of Ukrainian History, 1914-1991 The Ukraine's emergence as an independent state in 1991 was not accompanied by violence, it may be argued, due to the weak national consciousness of most of its citizens. Dr.Velychenko's latest work compares Soviet with Polish accounts of the Ukraine's past, examines how 'national history' was written and how its interpretation changed in each country. This book provides an account of how historical writing was used to build and destroy nations and states and is particularly relevant today in light of recent events in Eastern Europe. Seems like a banger, and also in line with the rest of the books on Galicia. I have wondered how Poland feels about all this, particularly with Bandera, but generally Ukrainians west of the 1914 border originally being Poles loyal to the Hapsburg monarchy.
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Jan 8, 2023 00:22
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lmao that loving cover
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Jan 8, 2023 00:24
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All sales are final GTFO
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Jan 8, 2023 00:29
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Lostconfused posted:lmao that loving cover 
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Jan 8, 2023 00:36
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quote:The research for this book was made possible by a Research Fellowship from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada. In 1988, under the auspices of the Canada-Soviet Academic Exchange Program, I was able to work in the libraries of Kiev and Lviv. Every loving time.
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Jan 8, 2023 00:39
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Yeah I'm thumbing through it and Poles thought Ukraine was Stalin's creation... pretty much until NATO expansion started up. A few other books from the same series in the past few years: Romantic Nationalism in Eastern Europe: Russian, Polish, and Ukrainian Political Imaginations This book explores the political imagination of Eastern Europe in the 1830s and 1840s, when Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian intellectuals came to identify themselves as belonging to communities known as nations or nationalities. Bilenky approaches this topic from a transnational perspective, revealing the ways in which modern Russian, Polish, and Ukrainian nationalities were formed and refashioned through the challenges they presented to one another, both as neighboring communities and as minorities within a given community. Further, all three nations defined themselves as a result of their interactions with the Russian and Austrian empires. Fueled by the Romantic search for national roots, they developed a number of separate yet often overlapping and inclusive senses of national identity, thereby producing myriad versions of Russianness, Polishness, and Ukrainianness. Genocide in the Carpathians: War, Social Breakdown, and Mass Violence, 1914-1945 Genocide in the Carpathians presents the history of Subcarpathian Rus', a multiethnic and multireligious borderland in the heart of Europe. This society of Carpatho-Ruthenians, Jews, Magyars, and Roma disintegrated under pressure of state building in interwar Czechoslovakia and, during World War II, from the onslaught of the Hungarian occupation. Charges of "foreignness" and disloyalty to the Hungarian state linked antisemitism to xenophobia and national security anxieties. Genocide unfolded as a Hungarian policy, and Hungarian authorities committed mass robbery, deportations, and killings against all non-Magyar groups in their efforts to recast the region as part of an ethnonational "Greater Hungary." In considering the events that preceded the German invasion of Hungary in March 1944, this book reorients our view of the Holocaust not simply as a German drive for continent-wide genocide, but as a truly international campaign of mass murder, related to violence against non-Jews unleashed by projects of state and nation building. Focusing on both state and society, Raz Segal shows how Hungary's genocidal attack on Subcarpathian Rus' obliterated not only tens of thousands of lives but also a diverse society and way of life that today, from the vantage point of our world of nation-states, we find difficult to imagine. Forging a Multinational State: State Making in Imperial Austria from the Enlightenment to the First World War The Habsburg Monarchy ruled over approximately one-third of Europe for almost 150 years. Previous books on the Habsburg Empire emphasize its slow decline in the face of the growth of neighboring nation-states. John Deak, instead, argues that the state was not in eternal decline, but actively sought not only to adapt, but also to modernize and build. Deak has spent years mastering the structure and practices of the Austrian public administration and has immersed himself in the minutiae of its codes, reforms, political maneuverings, and culture. He demonstrates how an early modern empire made up of disparate lands connected solely by the feudal ties of a ruling family was transformed into a relatively unitary, modern, semi-centralized bureaucratic continental empire. This process was only derailed by the state of emergency that accompanied the First World War. Consequently, Deak provides the reader with a new appreciation for the evolving architecture of one of Europe's Great Powers in the long nineteenth century. Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism The full magnitude of Benedict Anderson’s intellectual achievement is still being appreciated and debated. Imagined Communities remains the most influential book on the origins of nationalism, filling the vacuum that previously existed in the traditions of Western thought. Cited more often than any other single English-language work in the human sciences, it is read around the world in more than thirty translations. Written with exemplary clarity, this illuminating study traces the emergence of community as an idea to South America, rather than to nineteenth-century Europe. Later, this sense of belonging was formed and reformulated at every level, from high politics to popular culture, through print, literature, maps and museums. Following the rise and conflict of nations and the decline of empires, Anderson draws on examples from South East Asia, Latin America and Europe’s recent past to show how nationalism shaped the modern world. Apologies to our Croatian poster, but it's wild of how many things we take for granted as immutable facts about people and nations were the result of Viennese bureaucrats setting policy. Nationalism is often the product of the educated urban middle class, but the specific members of this class can vary depending on the context. For example, in Vietnam, nationalism emerged from the middle class educated in Paris, while in Pakistan, it arose from those educated at Oxford and Cambridge. In Croatia and Ukraine, the literate class emerged from the children of priests who were required to be literate for bureaucratic purposes under Austrian administration. This rapid process of national awakening among the children of priests who had recently come from rural areas may have contributed to the close connection between religious identification and nationalism from the start in these countries, both intentionally and unintentionally on the part of the Hapsburgs. This close connection may have created rough edges that other nations had more time to smooth out. There are so many interesting things going on here, and it's funny and sad to me that there was an emerging scholarly consensus that will probably never make it into the mainstream or popular understanding now that we've hitched our wagon to Ukrainian Nationalism and all of their myths.
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Jan 8, 2023 01:01
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Given the history of US meddling and intervention, even if the US is hands-off in a given instance it would be foolish not to consider and prepare for meddling and intervention. They are unable to act freely due to the ever present gunman just outside the frame.
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Jan 8, 2023 01:12
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Turtle Watch posted:Soledar O’Bryansk Lmao
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Jan 8, 2023 01:15
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Seems like a lot of word mincing tbh. In the end a cultural identity still exists. It's like complaining that multiculturalism in America imposes a single national identity without maintaining all the original European, Asian, and African identities. Well I guess Canada gets a bit of a pass here with Quebec.quote:As a result, the USSR was not a Russian-ruled colonial empire with a historiography denying all non-Russian distinctions and particularities, nor was it a national confederation of equals whose official history was the sum of its parts. The Party demanded loyalty to the USSR as a socialist state, yetthe USSR's official "national" identity and past were constructed primarily from Russian culture and historiography. The "history of the USSR" differed in terminology and periodization from tsarist histories of Russia; unlike tsarist historiography it recognized non-Russians as historical, if only transitional, national entities, and incorporated selected ideas ransacked from non-Russian historiography. The official interpretation recognized non-Russian Republics and "people" as distinct historical entities, allotted them official survey histories, and denied the Russians a history of the RSFSR. But none of this altered the fundamental statist Russocentrism of the official view.
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Jan 8, 2023 01:20
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Lostconfused posted:Seems like a lot of word mincing tbh. In the end a cultural identity still exists. It's like complaining that multiculturalism in America imposes a single national identity without maintaining all the original European, Asian, and African identities. Well I guess Canada gets a bit of a pass here with Quebec. The scholarship in social history since Albion's Seed is that America does not have a single national identity, but at least four distinct ones, some say more. You're getting too caught up on race - Asian and African identities in America are racial, but they're not national. Similarly, within Austria-Hungary, a multi-national state, communal distinctions sometimes existed but were not as sharp as when the Empire splintered. If I can explain in context why the creation of these identities was dangerous, take the isolated region of Sub-carpathian Rus, which did not have a prior history of antisemitic violence or pogrom. As they became "Ukrainian" they became antisemitic, eventually leading the region, like much of Western Ukraine to enthusiastically participate in the Holocaust: "In the interwar period, efforts were made to instill a Ukrainian national identity among the Carpatho-Ruthenian people in Subcarpathian Rus'. This was accomplished through the efforts of immigrants from Russia and Galicia who taught in schools in the region and promoted Ukrainian and Russian national ideas. These efforts were led by Ukrainophiles, many of whom were teachers and worked to foster a new generation of Carpatho-Ruthenians who identified as Ukrainian. As the Ukrainian language gained more usage in regular newspapers and the Ukrainian national movement grew stronger, tensions arose between Jews and Carpatho-Ruthenians. Many Holocaust survivors from the region recalled positive relations between the two groups before the war, but these relations deteriorated during the war due to the influence of Nazi ideology and the actions of Ukrainian nationalists. The construction of a Ukrainian identity in the region thus contributed to the emergence of antisemitism that had not previously existed." "The creation of Ukrainianism, or the promotion of a Ukrainian national identity, in Subcarpathian Rus' during the interwar period contributed to the emergence of antisemitism and ultimately the Holocaust in the region. As the Ukrainian national movement gained strength and the Ukrainian language became more widespread, tensions began to rise between Jews and Carpatho-Ruthenians. The situation was further exacerbated by the Hungarian occupation of the region during World War II, as many Carpatho-Ruthenians perceived Jews as being loyal to the Hungarian authorities. This led to a deepening of the schism between the two groups and an increase in antisemitic sentiment." "The promotion of Ukrainianism also played a role in the Holocaust in Subcarpathian Rus' through the actions of Ukrainian nationalists. Some Ukrainian nationalists, particularly those affiliated with the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), participated in the mass murder of Jews during the war. In particular, the OUN-B faction, which had a significant presence in Subcarpathian Rus', was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews in the region." "It is also worth considering the broader historical and political context in which Ukrainianism emerged in Subcarpathian Rus'. The region was under foreign rule throughout the period, initially by the Austo-Hungarians and later Czechs, Hungarians and Soviets, and the promotion of Ukrainianism was presented as a form of resistance to this rule. Jews, as a minority group, were said to have been aligned with the foreign powers and therefore perceived as being in conflict with the interests of the Carpatho-Ruthenian people. The emergence of a national identity was therefore understood to mean conflict with Jews as a liberatory act. Relations between Jews and Carpatho-Ruthenians could not survive the Carpatho-Ruthenians undergoing the process of Ukrainianism and a self-conception of Ukrainian conflict against foreign powers of which Jews were collaborators." Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 01:50 on Jan 8, 2023 |
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Jan 8, 2023 01:29
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Well that's the thing about identity, you can form it around anything. It's just the particular combination of ethnicity and nation being combined and into a single identity is the spicy combination that leads to genocide in Europe last century. Even worse for jewish people because they ended up on the wrong side of ethnicity, nation, and religion. Well maybe not nation, it's all degrees of difference I guess until some specific point where the differences pile up to the point of conflict.
Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 01:50 on Jan 8, 2023 |
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Jan 8, 2023 01:47
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FF you really should become a professional Galicia understander because ten years from now when people are dissecting how it all went wrong with the Ukraine intervention you can ride the wave all the way to writing a book or even appearing as a talking head on tv.
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Jan 8, 2023 01:48
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Slavvy posted:FF you really should become a professional Galicia understander because ten years from now when people are dissecting how it all went wrong with the Ukraine intervention you can ride the wave all the way to writing a book or even appearing as a talking head on tv. Lostconfused posted:Well that's the thing about identity, you can form it around anything. It's just the particular combination of ethnicity and nation being combined and into a single identity is the spicy combination that leads to genocide in Europe last century. Even worse for jewish people because they ended up on the wrong side of ethnicity, nation, and religion. Well maybe not nation, it's all degrees of difference I guess until some specific point where the differences pile up to the point of conflict. It's wild that there was a parallel movement for Galicia to become the Jewish homeland (within Austria-Hungary) which was more popular than Zionism. I think a viable peace plan for Palestine is a return to the real mother country. Joking aside, the consequences for being a talking head going against Ukrainian nationalism in Canada are interesting to speculate about, but I guess if I do a War Studies degree in it I'll have more of a buffer. I can't imagine it would go over great, but I also wonder how overt the enforcement would be. I should reach out to that RMC professor. It might be a good way to get a feel for it. Likely if I did War Studies on the KuK Armee it would be about Storm Columns or something, for the previously listed reasons of not reading German or Hungarian and not being able to travel to Vienna to study under the experts there. Canadians never fought them, so even getting it approved as a thesis, I mean it would have to be "The Edelweiss CMBG?: Canadian and Austro-Hungarian conceptions of shock and firepower, 1914-18, 2005-09" The place of the Jews in the Austro-Hungarian Empire has generated whole libraries of books, and that's where I'm finding a lot of these books published: Holocaust Studies.
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Jan 8, 2023 02:14
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Frosted Flake posted:Ukrainians west of the 1914 border originally being Poles loyal to the Hapsburg monarchy. I don't think this is true. Here's a Polish ethnographic map from 1912, showing the proportions of Polish population according to pre-WW1 censuses. I've highlighted Lwow, which has a ~50% Polish population, but the surrounding countryside does not.  Here is a Polish ethnographic map showing the proportions of Polish population (incorporates data from pre-WW1 censuses and the 1916 census) with towns and geographic features labeled, it's 10MB. I've just pulled these from the wiki article on the Curzon line, but in the absence of better evidence I'm inclined to believe them. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...z_1916_roku.jpg
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Jan 8, 2023 02:15
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