[Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

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(Thread IKs: fart simpson)

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

i say swears online posted:

yeah from what i've seen it was pretty popular

The "african" market is both too wide AND too shallow to see any returns on investment and I don't think the occasional wakanda shaped bone is going to do much except make a few useful idiots to raise a stink over ever increasing chinese investments into different african countries.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 23:46

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# ? May 26, 2024 07:22

Isentropy: Dec 12, 2010

Tankbuster posted:

The "african" market is both too wide AND too shallow to see any returns on investment and I don't think the occasional wakanda shaped bone is going to do much except make a few useful idiots to raise a stink over ever increasing chinese investments into different african countries.

Also they've got a pretty solid film industry of their own

# ? Jan 10, 2023 23:53

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

well they are all different countries so yes. Like in South Africa you have as pro western a regular population as it gets, but the ANC to their credit didn't fall head over heels into the rest of the Free(tm) world into complaining about Russia and destroying long standing relations with it.

# ? Jan 10, 2023 23:55

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019; Can't post for 20 hours!

the socialist alternative take on Infinite COVID lol

https://www.socialistalternative.org/2023/01/04/the-collapse-of-xi-jinpings-zero-covid-policy/

quote:

The Collapse of Xi Jinping�s Zero COVID Policy
Vincent Kolo January 4, 2023

In response to a wave of anti-government protests in late November, the Chinese dictatorship (CCP) has pivoted abruptly from its deeply unpopular Zero COVID regime. But for the Chinese masses, this is a case of out of the frying pan, into the fire. With no reliable data available and signs of deliberate underreporting of deaths, it seems major cities like Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou are experiencing an explosive surge of the Omicron variant, with other parts of the country awaiting the same grim fate in the weeks ahead.

According to official data, new infections in the whole country are running at around 2,000 per day, a ludicrously low figure. Unofficial estimates say that half of Beijing�s 22 million people have already been infected with Omicron. Even Hu Xijin, former editor of the Global Times, posted a rebuke on social media: �either report real figures or stop publishing them.�

China may now experience the fastest COVID wave in the history of the pandemic. Chinese experts predict 840 million people could be infected in the next few months. The terrifying speed and scale of this outbreak is due on one hand to the highly transmissible Omicron variants now spreading inside the country, plus a largely �immunologically na�ve� population that has been spared exposure to the virus for three years due to a stringent Zero COVID policy based on lockdowns, travel restrictions, and mass testing � all of which have suddenly been removed in many parts of the country.

Omicron is relatively mild for most people, but highly infectious. The BF.7 variant currently prevalent in China has a reproductive �R number� of 16, compared to 10 or 11 during last winter�s Omicron outbreak in the United States. This denotes the average number of people infected by each positive case. China�s top epidemiologist Zhong Nanshan told state media on 11 December that this number is even higher in China, with one person infecting 22 others.

Whereas in the US last winter cases doubled every two to three days, �now in China, the doubling time is like hours,� said epidemiologist Ben Cowling at the University of Hong Kong (NPR, December 15). Given the low vaccination rate among China�s elderly, with only 40% of over-80s fully vaccinated, there are projections of between half a million and 2 million COVID deaths in the coming waves.

Political Crisis

In late November, protests erupted in around 20 cities and more than 80 universities against the never-ending lockdowns and testing strictures of the Zero COVID policy. These protests were historic, breaking the mold of protests over the past three decades in that they were national in scope and because they raised explicitly political demands for democratic rights and even for Xi Jinping to �step down�.

The CCP has invested huge sums in creating the world�s biggest and most technologically sophisticated police state. It did this precisely to make such an outbreak of protest impossible. Of course, this project was doomed to fail, as we predicted. Despite the protests gathering relatively modest numbers, the mere fact they happened has plunged Xi�s regime into a state of crisis.

The timing and manner of the dictatorship�s abandonment of its Zero COVID controls defies all logic, unless we understand it as a panic reaction to these protests and the fear of even more protests if it did nothing. Not only is it winter, with the Chinese New Year � the world�s biggest yearly human migration � barely a month away, but China was already experiencing its biggest surge in infections when the government U-turn came.

In none of the other countries that followed a Zero COVID strategy has it ended in such a haphazard, abrupt, and poorly timed manner. In China, the key elements of an alternative pandemic strategy such as a vaccination booster campaign and beefing up the public healthcare system, especially ICU capacity, are only now being hastily improvised, instead of being prepared in advance.

Rather than a transition, it is as if the old pandemic control regime has fallen apart. The government has no �Plan B� other than to improvise one day at a time. The state�s propaganda of the past three years, which closely identified the Zero COVID doctrine with Xi personally (he is the �commander-in-chief� of the �people�s war� against the virus), stressed this was the world�s best pandemic strategy and proof of China�s �superior system� compared to chaotic Western-style �democracies�. The disastrous pandemic policies of Western governments, rooted in decades of neoliberal welfare destruction, flattered Xi�s contrary but equally anti-working class approach.

Now, the Chinese regime�s pandemic strategy is being �optimized� according to its new buzzword. Zero COVID is not officially dead, but it is no longer mentioned in official statements. This is not the first time in history that a political campaign has continued in name long after it was terminated in practice � to avoid humiliating the leader. Mao�s Cultural Revolution did not officially end until his death in 1976, although in reality it ended already in 1969.

Why This? Why Now?

Xi has now fallen silent, although he has clearly sanctioned this policy shift. Responsibility for dismantling Zero COVID has been devolved to local governments, in part to protect the emperor from the fallout. The dictatorship�s fear of widespread mass anger is evidently the main reason for this sudden 180-degree turn. But there is also an element of revenge: to punish the masses for daring to challenge Xi.

The dictatorship has understood that the virus can be an ally in pacifying the population and curbing new protests. It played a significant part in the CCP�s battle to reestablish control over Hong Kong in 2020, at a time when the mass anti-authoritarian struggle had already entered a downward phase. This was months before the national security law was imposed on the city. In many western countries the early phase of the pandemic, with cases surging and society thrown into chaos, was also accompanied by a cessation or sharp downturn of mass struggle.

Rather than fill the streets to enjoy their newfound mobility, the population of China�s biggest cities has largely avoided venturing out in fear of infection or because they are infected. Beijing last week was described by one netizen as a �virtual ghost town�. Ridership on the subway is lower now in Beijing and several other major cities than it was before the Zero COVID restrictions were lifted, when proof of a negative PCR test was required to use public transport.

The capital�s hospitals are reportedly overwhelmed, with scenes reminiscent of Hong Kong earlier this year, of patients forced to wait outside in hospital car parks. Alarming numbers of medical personnel are infected, with reports that doctors and nurses in Beijing are being ordered to work despite testing positive for COVID. Common fever medicines such as Paracetamol and Ibuprofen as well as self-testing kits have sold out in many cities, another sign the regime�s policy reversal was completely unplanned and knee-jerk. Blood banks are also reportedly running short.

Beijing�s crematoriums are working around the clock, increasing speculation the government is suppressing data about COVID deaths. In Wuhan, during the original outbreak in early 2020, it was widely believed the official death count was underreported. Officially, two people have died of COVID in Beijing since 3 December. A hashtag on the two deaths became the top trending item on social media, with many expressing disbelief.

Not only is China�s official death count out of whack with the experience of other countries after lifting restrictions, but it is challenged by eyewitness accounts. �Reuters journalists witnessed hearses lined up outside a designated COVID-19 crematorium in Beijing and workers in hazmat suits carrying the dead inside the facility,� reported Reuters on 19 December. Internet searches for �funeral homes� by Beijing residents are at their highest level since the pandemic began.

CCP�s Internal Power Struggle

Xi�s regime has been under mounting pressure to exit from Zero COVID in order to address a deepening economic slump and staunch the accelerating trend of decoupling by Western companies. Many local governments have been brought to the edge of bankruptcy by the huge costs of maintaining the Zero COVID infrastructure, especially the demand for full-scale mass testing. Soochow Securities estimated that a year�s worth of mass testing could cost China�s local governments a combined 1.7 trillion yuan (US $257 billion), about 1.5% of GDP.

This economic pressure has exacerbated the power struggle inside the CCP and conflicts between the center and the regions. For Xi, an important benefit of the Zero COVID policy was its role in the internal CCP power struggle as a tool to weed out critics and reward those displaying slavish loyalty.

Record youth unemployment (almost 20% officially), falling real wages and the implosion of the housing market are all important factors behind November�s protests. The dictatorship�s media and propaganda arms have of course not reported the protests. Officially, they did not happen. It would be extremely dangerous for this regime to acknowledge its hand was forced by mass pressure.

At the CCP�s 20th Congress, only six weeks before this explosion of struggle, Xi Jinping again reiterated the need to maintain the Zero COVID policy. During the congress it was announced that China�s testing capacity had reached the level of an incredible 1 billion PCR tests per day. What this massive investment was actually for is a legitimate question today, as mass testing is being summarily scrapped.

At the congress Xi purged the top-level Politburo Standing Committee of opposition elements and promoted acolytes like Li Qiang and Cai Qi, both strongly associated with enforcing Zero COVID in their cities. As Shanghai CCP boss, Li Qiang presided over the brutal two-month lockdown of China�s largest city earlier this year, stoking massive public discontent. It is no coincidence that during the November protests some of the most radical anti-government slogans surfaced in Shanghai, including chants of �Down with the CCP� and �Xi Jinping step down�.

Li�s counterpart in Beijing, Cai Qi, also promoted to the standing Committee at the 20th Congress, announced in June that Zero COVID would be �maintained for the next five years�. This statement went viral, but not in the way Cai intended, and within hours the reference to �five years� had been deleted from news reports.

Zero COVID has now disappeared from official statements. Xi�s last public comments on the policy were at the November 10 Politburo meeting, when he told them to stick �resolutely� with Zero COVID. It was not mentioned once in the new 10-point plan announced on December 7 by the National Health Commission (NHC) and the Joint Prevention and Control Mechanism of the State Council (China�s cabinet). This is a �stunning U-turn� as the Financial Times noted. But it�s also important to note that there has been no official announcement that the policy has ended. In typical CCP-ese, the policy has instead been �optimized�.

�Lying Flat�

Xi�s regime has substituted one disastrous policy for another. It looks remarkably like the �lying flat� policy which CCP propaganda previously depicted as a failed Western strategy. This term has been used to vilify those scientific experts who have dared to call for a different approach. Official statements portray the regime�s sudden chaotic change of course as a refinement based on alleged �successes�. State media now stresses the reduced severity of Omicron � which is hardly news � whereas previously it reported the opposite. It hails the 90% vaccination rate, but this was achieved more than a year ago, and excludes tens of millions of the most vulnerable.

All of the factors currently being cited to justify the sudden policy shift have been present for a long time, but Xi�s regime persisted with Zero COVID regardless. It did so partly for political reasons including the quest for an extreme form of social control and as a weapon in Xi�s power struggle agenda ahead of the 20th Congress (to cement his lifetime rule project).

What is happening now is a massive policy failure. Socialists have consistently criticized Xi�s Zero COVID policy for its lack of a scientific basis, its brutality and bureaucratic heavy-handedness. The lockdowns were not used to gain time to address China�s too-low vaccination rates. The IMF says 375 million people over the age of 15 in China have yet to receive three doses, and this includes over 90 million over-60s. Rather than solve the crisis in the public healthcare system, resources have instead been misdirected into the gargantuan machinery of testing, quarantine and lockdown enforcement. The most effective � foreign � vaccines are banned in China (except for foreigners!), as part of Xi�s anti-Western nationalist propaganda.

According to official data, as of November 19 only 1.9 million Chinese have been infected with COVID in a population of 1.4 billion. Feng Zijian, a former deputy director of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, said he expected 60% of China�s population to be infected in an initial wave of infections � which translates into 840 million new cases. Eventually, as much as 90% of China�s population will have been infected, according to Feng.

The coming weeks look particularly uncertain. Even as many cities have abandoned the old policy, there are still lockdowns. Shanghai announced the closure of all its schools and kindergartens starting from December 19. University students that chinaworker.info has spoken to in different cities report that many restrictions are still in place.

The CCP�s pandemic policy is likely to remain erratic, with zigzags and crises. Its new �lying flat� policy puts the biggest burden on the working class and on the precarious sector which includes 300 million migrant workers, on healthcare workers and on the rural population where public healthcare is in an even more dilapidated condition. There are 1.48 doctors and 2.1 nurses for every 1,000 people in rural areas, compared with 3.96 doctors and 5.4 nurses per 1,000 urban residents, according to the South China Morning Post (December 12, 2022).

It cannot be excluded that the regime performs new 180-degree turns in the next period. Political zigzags are after all part of the CCP�s DNA. If the worst-case scenarios for COVID fatalities are realized we could see a new pivot back towards large scale lockdowns, although this will encounter increasing difficulties. Xi has so far maintained complete silence on the demise of Zero COVID, which could feasibly position him to reverse today�s policy while scapegoating other CCP leaders and local administrations with responsibility for its failure.

Other political somersaults are possible such as the implementation of a vaccine mandate for the elderly � a step the regime has avoided, fearing significant opposition arising from China�s appalling track record of defective vaccines long before COVID. It cannot be entirely excluded that the ban on foreign mRNA vaccines is lifted, depending on the severity of the situation.

Scope For Concessions?

Xi�s regime has been forced to change course by mass pressure, but the new course is in many ways worse than its forerunner. It is not a real concession and far less a reform, in the sense of a tangible improvement. It does show to that significant minority of the population who know about the mass protests (most people don�t know) that struggle can force the dictatorship to retreat, at least partially. Marxists explain the importance of this as a crucial lesson for future struggles. But we also explain that more is needed.

ISA and chinaworker.info have explained that the capitalist dictatorship in China, as a general rule, possesses less political flexibility than a bourgeois democratic system with its parliament and rotating (capitalist) governments. Some challenges that don�t automatically endanger a Western-style �democratic� regime, such as the collapse of a government�s authority, could pose an existential crisis for a dictatorship.

For example, in Britain the past year has seen a series of governments disintegrate in spectacular fashion, which reflects a historic crisis of the main capitalist party, the Tories. But this has not yet placed the collapse of Britain�s capitalist system on the agenda.

There are other examples where �democratic� capitalist governments maneuver with a degree of freedom that isn�t possible to the same extent in a rigidly authoritarian system as in China or at present in Iran. This is why the capitalist class as a general rule, except in specific conditions like those in China of historically belated, extremely unstable capitalist relations, prefers bourgeois democracy to bourgeois dictatorship. But even the most �democratic� capitalists can reconcile themselves to dictatorship if their system�s survival requires it.

Democratic demands, for example the demand for independent labor unions, or freedom of speech and the scrapping of draconian censorship measures, are resisted tooth and nail by the CCP regime because these things would endanger its rule, threatening to unleash a chain reaction of lost control heading towards dissolution and collapse. Therefore, any zigzag concessions will be followed by renewed repression.

The CCP is not a party, it is the state. The fall of the CCP therefore means the break-up of the state. This is the main reason Xi decided he had no alternative but to crush the democracy struggle in Hong Kong for fear it would eventually reach a point where it would spillover into mainland China.

This does not mean the dictatorship cannot make concessions when it is under pressure from a mass struggle. In 2010, Beijing forced the Japanese car companies to give 30% pay increases to the car workers in Guangdong, in order to end a wave of strikes that was also beginning to raise demands for an independent trade union. In 2003, in the face of what was then the biggest ever mass protest in Hong Kong, Beijing ordered the Hong Kong government to execute a humiliating retreat and scrap its planned �Article 23� security law. The Hong Kong government fell � it was expendable. In Guangdong, the provincial CCP also staged a partial retreat over the protest village Wukan in 2011. CCP negotiators agreed to allow a village election and the release of arrested protesters.

What did these concessions have in common? Firstly, and most importantly, they did not fundamentally threaten the dictatorship�s power and control. Secondly, the conceding party in these examples was not the central government but a subordinate agency or outside party � a future scapegoat. Thirdly, all these concessions could be and were in fact rolled back through new counterrevolutionary attacks.

Therefore, the CCP�s rule historically is not entirely without political flexibility. But it is far more limited than in most �democratic� capitalist regimes. And this flexibility has decreased dramatically under Xi Jinping�s rule. The �stick� of repression has got bigger while the �carrot� of concessions has got smaller. Under pressure from a potentially revolutionary movement or crisis, the CCP regime could make promises and offer reforms, which can never be trusted. What they won�t do is dissolve the dictatorship and capitalism. This task requires a mass workers� movement with a revolutionary democratic and socialist program.

not gonna do it but you can assume long sections are plagiarized from western newspapers in English :ussr:

# ? Jan 11, 2023 00:51

Homeless Friend: Jul 16, 2007

Antonymous posted:

He is a graduate of the Iowa Writers' Workshop and has been a Fulbright Scholar, Poynter Fellow at Yale, MacDowell Fellow, NYU visiting scholar, and frequent Pulitzer Center grantee. He is represented by Adam Eaglin of The Cheney Agency.

the #1 funny thing about xinjiang will always be americans feeling bad about prisoners

in china lol

# ? Jan 11, 2023 01:16

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

Homeless Friend posted:

the #1 funny thing about xinjiang will always be americans feeling bad about prisoners

in china lol

the #2 is that it�s literally the only place on earth the west opposes discriminating against a Muslim minority.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 01:19

Isentropy: Dec 12, 2010

British cops in some districts are using food banks, the fundamentals of the economy are strong

# ? Jan 11, 2023 01:25

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

Best Friends posted:

the #2 is that it�s literally the only place on earth the west opposes discriminating against a Muslim minority.

They also oppose to it in Myanmar. (But not in India.)

# ? Jan 11, 2023 01:35

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Tankbuster posted:

well they are all different countries so yes. Like in South Africa you have as pro western a regular population as it gets, but the ANC to their credit didn't fall head over heels into the rest of the Free(tm) world into complaining about Russia and destroying long standing relations with it.

nollywood was pretty insular when i was there. lots of historical dramas and moral cautionary tales

there was a nigerian Crash this year called Country Hard where a bunch of standalone stories intersect

more recent movies are romantic comedies and comedy-of-error movies where something simple snowballs into a disaster

i say swears online has issued a correction as of 02:12 on Jan 11, 2023

# ? Jan 11, 2023 01:37

tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

uganda has a fun low-budget action films industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Black

# ? Jan 11, 2023 01:57

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

tristeham posted:

uganda has a fun low-budget action films industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Black

lol this version has commentary, give this timestamp'd section thirty seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa5kPuDtosQ&t=440s

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:14

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

genericnick posted:

Fun thing I just remembered:

lmao, post that in the Epstein thread if you haven't already

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:18

tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

i say swears online posted:

lol this version has commentary, give this timestamp'd section thirty seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa5kPuDtosQ&t=440s

lol if i start i'll watch the whole thing again

# ? Jan 11, 2023 02:26

Gresh: Jan 12, 2019

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1612992302309335041

# ? Jan 11, 2023 03:01

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

i say swears online posted:

lol this version has commentary, give this timestamp'd section thirty seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa5kPuDtosQ&t=440s

Yea that's a common feature of Wakaliwood films. Be sure to check out Who Killed Captain Alex?

# ? Jan 11, 2023 03:03

Eminent DNS: May 28, 2007

Gresh posted:

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1612992302309335041

"the era of trusting communist China is over,” McCarthy said Tuesday on the House floor."

Read that in a vacuum and guess the decade

# ? Jan 11, 2023 04:02

Eminent DNS: May 28, 2007

This is one of the few times I'd like to be a Congress guy so I could make some fiery speech about the legacy of the opium wars, even though I know it wouldn't do anything

# ? Jan 11, 2023 04:03

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

i say swears online posted:

lol this version has commentary, give this timestamp'd section thirty seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa5kPuDtosQ&t=440s

This is loving incredible, thank you kind poster

# ? Jan 11, 2023 04:34

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

somebody asked for a summary of the ebbs and flows of china's covid policy and i think this does a pretty good job of it. basically comports with my own experience

https://twitter.com/nise_yoshimi/status/1611638886899261440

# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:13

ModernMajorGeneral: Jun 25, 2010

R. Guyovich posted:

somebody asked for a summary of the ebbs and flows of china's covid policy and i think this does a pretty good job of it. basically comports with my own experience

https://twitter.com/nise_yoshimi/status/1611638886899261440

good read

if your eyes glaze over at this guy talking about what him and all his friends were doing for 3 years reading the conclusion by itself is still good

quote:

By this metric of ours, China looks to have hosed up bad. But did the Chinese state and people see it this way? The narrative that Covid involved some kind of attempt at lockdown/mitigation then inevitably when this didn�t work had to bear a large number of deaths, the �exit wave�, as the pandemic ended without a victory over the virus � this framing was not something that happened naturally, but was a result of pandemic failures in the west that demanded we get over it, because we could not defeat it, then thusly meant the whole world was obliged to get over it as well, because it was and remains our drat planet. This is the ideology of neoliberal capitalism � you simply get over things, whether market collapse, pandemic, or huge and dreadful economic and social crises, because the gutting of all arms of the state except that of repression and the draining of all political will except for tepid games of management means that your government and society no longer posses any capacity for dealing with problems in any real sense. The Covid-19 pandemic was a test for all of mankind, and we failed � but to be more particular capitalism failed, to either contain the pandemic or look out for its victims. And in our intertwined world devoid of alternatives it was so decided that this meant we all had to fail.

Did socialism with Chinese characteristics bravely defy this trend? Not entirely. Zero-Covid was a hybrid response borne of a hybrid system, that still unfairly affected the most disadvantaged in Chinese society and still ultimately prioritised profits and capital over people. But the Chinese system cannot � indeed, no matter how much it tries � shake off its basic Marxist DNA, which impels it to try to conquer the world, to defeat the things that neoliberalism declares as natural laws. Where we shrugged, China, for a combination of reasons both political and historical, foolishly tried to save lives, and we went through a whole range of responses witnessing this play out � first disbelief at the scale of the effort, then horror at its apparent success, and now finally a smug satisfaction at the fact that it seems even the communists weren�t able to defy gravity. We hope next time they�ll learn their lesson and simply give up like the rest of us; lie flat from day one instead of trying.

None of what has happened since 2020 bodes well for the next disaster, the next pandemic, the next great war. We are exhausted, indifferent, divided. The tragedy of Zero-Covid is not that it didn�t save lives (it did), not that it hurt people for no good reason (it also did), but that one country, no matter how motivated, cannot defeat a planetary-level disaster event by itself. In this case the country that tried was reduced to the ineffectual, sprawling, mess of late 2022 not because Xi Jinping just really liked it or because you see only authoritarian countries do these kind of things, but simply because its response to the disaster was never supposed to last for three years and it only did because the Chinese were trying in their broad-strokes, hard-nosed greater-good way to do the right thing even when everyone else gave up. And now we�re laughing at them for even doing so, while as ever hoping enough people suffer that the annoying Communist Party that attempted this either goes away or at least returns to 2000s neoliberal indifference to its people, so that when that next crisis does hit nobody will embarrass us by attempting to do anything about it.

Wherever we go from here, whatever happens next, I hope people can try to remember this; that while Zero-Covid has ultimately proven to be a tragedy, a tragedy requires not just misery but hope, that the good was intermingled with the bad. And that in coming to terms with the manifold failures of the pandemic worldwide, unaccountable as those responsible seem to be, that we can remember that it perhaps didn�t have to turn out how it did. In China the common phrase �add oil� came up a lot during Covid, meaning to keep on going, to put more fuel in your tank, not to give up. We said this about Wuhan, about Xi�an, about Shanghai � we asked in turn everywhere struck with the virus to add oil. I guess now I�m saying this again. As China staggers into the post-pandemic world, catching up with everyone else, I�ll ask everyone to add oil for a different reason � don�t stop being mad. Don�t ever forget what happened. Don�t stop being mad about the gravity they imposed upon us, that forced us all to live with it, that killed so many and ruined so much simply because they didn�t feel like doing any better and poured scorn upon those who did. With the end of Zero-Covid that nebulous thing called �the pandemic�, I guess, is finally over.

The fire next time will be somewhere else.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 05:51

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

that was very good

# ? Jan 11, 2023 06:18

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

R. Guyovich posted:

somebody asked for a summary of the ebbs and flows of china's covid policy and i think this does a pretty good job of it. basically comports with my own experience

https://twitter.com/nise_yoshimi/status/1611638886899261440

more or less lines up with my own experience too, although the author seems more negative about the whole thing than i was

# ? Jan 11, 2023 06:33

R. Mute: Jul 27, 2011

mawarannahr posted:

the socialist alternative take on Infinite COVID lol

https://www.socialistalternative.org/2023/01/04/the-collapse-of-xi-jinpings-zero-covid-policy/

not gonna do it but you can assume long sections are plagiarized from western newspapers in English

very bad

R. Guyovich posted:

somebody asked for a summary of the ebbs and flows of china's covid policy and i think this does a pretty good job of it. basically comports with my own experience

https://twitter.com/nise_yoshimi/status/1611638886899261440

very good

# ? Jan 11, 2023 08:30

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

R. Guyovich posted:

somebody asked for a summary of the ebbs and flows of china's covid policy and i think this does a pretty good job of it. basically comports with my own experience

https://twitter.com/nise_yoshimi/status/1611638886899261440

Good read. I agree with their conclusion on how COVID Zero ultimately fell apart

quote:

Zero-Covid state�s initial successes and didn�t wane until deep into the 2022 Omicron wave, and by the fierce arguments unfolding in China now still has not entirely died off. In 2021 especially, before things soured, many people were proud of Zero-Covid, and remain so. Xi�s Party has always been caught in an awkward place between the alienating, mistrustful and distant politics of its predecessors and its attempted recognition of the importance of political support and public consensus, and Zero-Covid�s mixture of technocratic top-down management and its dependence, in the last resort, on co-operation between volunteers and citizens, reflects this. When that co-operation vanished in late 2022, with protests and riots facing the Big Whites instead of queues of accepting citizens, the policy became unworkable � or at least, it had been rendered unworkable except by brute force applied wholesale across the country, which would have accomplished nothing. Ironically it is this that has led to the end of Zero-Covid � the Chinese state�s unwillingness to use the naked force it is often accused of depending upon. The cost of this unwillingness to resort to violence will paradoxically be enormous, but then so would the cost of the violence itself.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 10:14

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

https://twitter.com/Tarhuwa/status/1612976533764710401?s=20

# ? Jan 11, 2023 11:55

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

i say swears online posted:

yeah from what i've seen it was pretty popular

what do african countries think of wolf warrior

# ? Jan 11, 2023 12:23

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

good read

if your eyes glaze over at this guy talking about what him and all his friends were doing for 3 years reading the conclusion by itself is still good

good read.

feel the same about it from here in western australia, without the global racial geopolitics part of it. we had the same dickheads crowing about our 'hermit kingdom' finally opening up and facing the freedom virus.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 12:44

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

Lol Azerbaijan

# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:13

oscarthewilde: May 16, 2012; I would often go there
To the tiny church there

one thing i've been thinking about a lot - especially when it comes to the global response to covid - is Fukuyama weird hegelianism. Fukuyama is a bad hegelian, who barely understood Koj�ve, let alone Hegel, but certain aspects of his analysis are that are still quite interesting. In one of his early, non-End of History works he discusses globalization and the resulting liberalization and democratization of the world. as part of his horribly ideological mindset, he believes that an efficient society and economy can only be produced in an economically and politically liberal state. even in illiberal states with state-run economy citizens the world over will notice the clear superiority of those liberal states, internalize liberal beliefs, form a broad social movement with similarly liberalised subjects and eventually force their country to liberalise.

this analysis is, of course, completely wrong and, if anything, western neoliberalism is less efficient, and more polarising than any potential alternative, but something still rings true. To a certain extent, though I am not sure why and how, subjects the world over are becoming more liberal. the production of the liberalised and atomised subject is a fait-accompli in the West, and can explain the completely ineffective response to COVID throughout the West, but even beyond the West subjects the world over are slowly beginning to hold the same beliefs, consider the world and themselves in the same way and stand in similar relations to the state and society.

Fukuyama might be wrong in ascribing the cause to the complete superiority of liberalism, but whether the root cause is the digitalisation of the human experience through social-media and the itnernet, the alienation inherent in all labour relations (even in China!), the fundamental contradictions of capitalism, Bretton Woods and the imposition of the Washington Consensus through the WEF, World Bank and the IMF, the lizard people and Bildenbergers, the World-Spirit on horseback or a combination of all of the above, the processes in which the subject is produced is changing and slowly becoming more self-similar. though, unlike, Hegel, I fear that the universalisation of the subject will not lead to the realisation of Freedom and Spirit in the world

# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:35

oscarthewilde: May 16, 2012; I would often go there
To the tiny church there

Red and Black posted:

Good read. I agree with their conclusion on how COVID Zero ultimately fell apart

quote:
Zero-Covid state�s initial successes and didn�t wane until deep into the 2022 Omicron wave, and by the fierce arguments unfolding in China now still has not entirely died off. In 2021 especially, before things soured, many people were proud of Zero-Covid, and remain so. Xi�s Party has always been caught in an awkward place between the alienating, mistrustful and distant politics of its predecessors and its attempted recognition of the importance of political support and public consensus, and Zero-Covid�s mixture of technocratic top-down management and its dependence, in the last resort, on co-operation between volunteers and citizens, reflects this. When that co-operation vanished in late 2022, with protests and riots facing the Big Whites instead of queues of accepting citizens, the policy became unworkable � or at least, it had been rendered unworkable except by brute force applied wholesale across the country, which would have accomplished nothing. Ironically it is this that has led to the end of Zero-Covid � the Chinese state�s unwillingness to use the naked force it is often accused of depending upon. The cost of this unwillingness to resort to violence will paradoxically be enormous, but then so would the cost of the violence itself.

Inspired, in large part, by this quote

# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:36

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

I have been thinking, there should be a R0 value, not for virus , but for how much and how fast the neoliberal world order can infect a closed country into neolib-like state. The R0 value doubles if the country has extractable resource.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 14:46

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

oscarthewilde posted:

one thing i've been thinking about a lot - especially when it comes to the global response to covid - is Fukuyama weird hegelianism. Fukuyama is a bad hegelian, who barely understood Koj�ve, let alone Hegel, but certain aspects of his analysis are that are still quite interesting. In one of his early, non-End of History works he discusses globalization and the resulting liberalization and democratization of the world. as part of his horribly ideological mindset, he believes that an efficient society and economy can only be produced in an economically and politically liberal state. even in illiberal states with state-run economy citizens the world over will notice the clear superiority of those liberal states, internalize liberal beliefs, form a broad social movement with similarly liberalised subjects and eventually force their country to liberalise.

this analysis is, of course, completely wrong and, if anything, western neoliberalism is less efficient, and more polarising than any potential alternative, but something still rings true. To a certain extent, though I am not sure why and how, subjects the world over are becoming more liberal. the production of the liberalised and atomised subject is a fait-accompli in the West, and can explain the completely ineffective response to COVID throughout the West, but even beyond the West subjects the world over are slowly beginning to hold the same beliefs, consider the world and themselves in the same way and stand in similar relations to the state and society.

Fukuyama might be wrong in ascribing the cause to the complete superiority of liberalism, but whether the root cause is the digitalisation of the human experience through social-media and the itnernet, the alienation inherent in all labour relations (even in China!), the fundamental contradictions of capitalism, Bretton Woods and the imposition of the Washington Consensus through the WEF, World Bank and the IMF, the lizard people and Bildenbergers, the World-Spirit on horseback or a combination of all of the above, the processes in which the subject is produced is changing and slowly becoming more self-similar. though, unlike, Hegel, I fear that the universalisation of the subject will not lead to the realisation of Freedom and Spirit in the world

material conditions precede consciousness. as Capital spreads and grows larger, so minds adapted for the material conditions it creates become more common.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 15:02

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

oscarthewilde posted:

one thing i've been thinking about a lot - especially when it comes to the global response to covid - is Fukuyama weird hegelianism. Fukuyama is a bad hegelian, who barely understood Koj�ve, let alone Hegel, but certain aspects of his analysis are that are still quite interesting. In one of his early, non-End of History works he discusses globalization and the resulting liberalization and democratization of the world. as part of his horribly ideological mindset, he believes that an efficient society and economy can only be produced in an economically and politically liberal state. even in illiberal states with state-run economy citizens the world over will notice the clear superiority of those liberal states, internalize liberal beliefs, form a broad social movement with similarly liberalised subjects and eventually force their country to liberalise.

this analysis is, of course, completely wrong and, if anything, western neoliberalism is less efficient, and more polarising than any potential alternative, but something still rings true. To a certain extent, though I am not sure why and how, subjects the world over are becoming more liberal. the production of the liberalised and atomised subject is a fait-accompli in the West, and can explain the completely ineffective response to COVID throughout the West, but even beyond the West subjects the world over are slowly beginning to hold the same beliefs, consider the world and themselves in the same way and stand in similar relations to the state and society.

Fukuyama might be wrong in ascribing the cause to the complete superiority of liberalism, but whether the root cause is the digitalisation of the human experience through social-media and the itnernet, the alienation inherent in all labour relations (even in China!), the fundamental contradictions of capitalism, Bretton Woods and the imposition of the Washington Consensus through the WEF, World Bank and the IMF, the lizard people and Bildenbergers, the World-Spirit on horseback or a combination of all of the above, the processes in which the subject is produced is changing and slowly becoming more self-similar. though, unlike, Hegel, I fear that the universalisation of the subject will not lead to the realisation of Freedom and Spirit in the world

i think the "slowly becoming more self-similar" you are referring to is probably just industrialization and urbanization. i think pre-industrial cultures have a lot more variation between them, and industrialization necessarily leads to destruction of much of the old ways and standardization. and then as you connect more and more to the world economy, you end up adhering to certain norms along with that as well. you can even see it play out in real time on different scales in countries that are still going through the process: the rural areas of china for example can have pretty significant differences between them in culture, language, etc. but in the big modern cities everyone speaks mandarin and stuff feels a lot more same-y no matter where you are in the country, in a similar way to how in many ways shanghai feels similar to tokyo which feels similar to new york

# ? Jan 11, 2023 15:32

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

i guess the US finally had a war game where it �wins� in a war with China over Taiwan

https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/1075288.html

The result? Taiwan remains independent but it a smoking pile of rubble, no electricity or basic services. economy completely destroyed.

China and the US both take heavy losses, but the US takes heavier losses and its military position in Asia is utterly ruined with its bases across the region annihilated.

The conclusion of the study conducted by arms manufacturer funded CSIS is that the US and Taiwan should buy more weapons

# ? Jan 11, 2023 15:45

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Zodium posted:

material conditions precede consciousness. as Capital spreads and grows larger, so minds adapted for the material conditions it creates become more common.

Major worry for China's approach of building communism through using capital to unleash productive forces though. From my experience with young Chinese (<35 years old, doing PhDs abroad) they are both rather liberal in their outlook and very naive and ignorant about the results produced by liberalism. They all had major support and respect for the protests against zero covid back in China, and this was only very partially due to their own benefitting of removing travel restrictions. Most of them plan to go back to China and live their lives there after they finish their studies but see the people protesting as "risking their lives to make China better".

Being generally well-off to just straight up having wealty parents and generally only interacting with people through their university studies who are materially well-off gives them a very skewed perspective on what a Western European society is really like. They aren't unique in this, as at least in NL, if you are well-off, there's basically zero reason to interact with people from the lower class unless you specifically seek them out.

From what they tell me, they also feel like their lived experience here has exposed some of the "lies" the CPC propaganda has told them about the West. When I try to get specifics there a lot of it is stuff that is actually true, just poo poo that is a bit hidden, that most (well-off) Westerners would insist isn't true, and that isn't as universal as what they either were presented or had come to believe.

# ? Jan 11, 2023 15:49

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

Orange Devil posted:

From what they tell me, they also feel like their lived experience here has exposed some of the "lies" the CPC propaganda has told them about the West. When I try to get specifics there a lot of it is stuff that is actually true, just poo poo that is a bit hidden, that most (well-off) Westerners would insist isn't true, and that isn't as universal as what they either were presented or had come to believe.

any examples?

# ? Jan 11, 2023 15:59

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019; Can't post for 20 hours!

AnimeIsTrash posted:

Lol Azerbaijan

they�re doing what they can�. the uk has more money and ♾️ responsibility

# ? Jan 11, 2023 15:59

In Training: Jun 28, 2008

people like that are the base for bourgeois political legitimacy, but what kind of outlet do they have domestically. I'm curious what the Chinese approach is to curbing that kind of influence, I know they have party members on executive boards and hold billionaires accountable etc. But how do you deal with reactionary nouveau riche

# ? Jan 11, 2023 15:59

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

In Training posted:

But how do you deal with reactionary nouveau riche

they should be killled in my humble opinion

# ? Jan 11, 2023 16:05

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# ? May 26, 2024 07:22

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

stephenthinkpad thank you btw for the Taiwan election post - I was able to engage with some people from a position of not-complete-ignorance

# ? Jan 11, 2023 16:07

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Asia/Oceania] Yellen says she hopes China wont mount retaliation against any steps Washington takes

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