Kalit posted:Where do you see that CAIR had an immediate press statement? That CAIR press event shown in that news story was from today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWbknyjyXSY Yep, same day as the university president's statement, with the student onstage.
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Jan 12, 2023 04:12
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koolkal posted:Sounds like the professor gave warnings and the real issue here is really whether the art should have been allowed to be shown at all, not the manner in which it was shown or how many warnings were given. At least according to a professor at University of Michigan, it doesn't sound rare for Prophet Muhammad to be shown within academia: quote:Dr. Gruber said that showing Islamic art and depictions of the Prophet Muhammad have become more common in academia, because of a push to “decolonize the canon” — that is, expand curriculum beyond a Western model. Granted, you could make the argument that all of the professors who do this are wrong, but this is definitely far from the only occurrence. Discendo Vox posted:Yep, same day as the university president's statement, with the student onstage. Oh sorry, I thought you meant the same day as when the news came out about the student's complaint.
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Jan 12, 2023 04:20
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koolkal posted:Sounds like the professor gave warnings and the real issue here is really whether the art should have been allowed to be shown at all, not the manner in which it was shown or how many warnings were given.
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Jan 12, 2023 04:22
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It's very normal to show things like depictions of Muhammad where relevant to the coursework, such as in history of religion/comparative theology classes- the fact that the notion isn't and wasn't universally held is straight up the kind of "oh cool I didn't know that" hook that one uses to appeal to undergrads under other circumstances, like the colossal clusterfuck of biblical authorship. The basis for the dismissal is like the exact inverse of how all this stuff's supposed to work; the external viewpoint is controlling the scope of academic content, to such an extent that, explicitly, no accommodation is acceptable. There's zero hint of any kind of inappropriateness from the instructor, and every indication that the student or group did this to set precedent on it. A good test for reactions on this would be to compare it against, say, a similar demand about piss Christ getting discussed in an aesthetic philosophy class, or med school programs that teach abortion procedures. edit: this might be worth pulling in some academics from SAL. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jan 12, 2023 |
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Jan 12, 2023 04:28
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koolkal posted:Sounds like the professor gave warnings and the real issue here is really whether the art should have been allowed to be shown at all, not the manner in which it was shown or how many warnings were given. She didn't have to look away. She chose to look away. We should make reasonable accommodations for religions (and in this case did), but we shouldn't let religions dictate what is acceptable for everyone else.
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Jan 12, 2023 04:45
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Rebel Blob posted:One thing to not here is that this is a historical piece of art created by devout Muslims. The prohibition against depicting Mohammad has not been and is not universal in the Islamic world. It was ignorant of the school's administration to write that the professor's actions were Islamaphobic, an inaccurate understanding of the issue that generalizes a specific religious viewpoint to all of the diverse Islamic world. Its part of a Salafi extremist iconoclastism, which notably also involves demolishing what could be considered world heritage sites in Mecca and Medina. Its an extreme interpretation around the prohibition on idols. This is almost literally the poo poo terrorists use in justifying dynamiting archeological sites. Its not that it is used as a item of devotion, its that its an image that doesn't fit into their worldview, including the fact that other interpretations of Islam (and other cultures in general) have ever existed. The most extreme forms of this ban depictions of the human figure entirely. Its like the white power jackasses whining when a minority woman in a film is more important than a white man, or when someone whose race doesn't have an impact on the story isn't white.
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Jan 12, 2023 05:10
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The events being referred to in the article on the Hamline University art class took place more than a week ago, and therefore it is against the rules of this thread to quote or discuss the article. I regret the impending probations of the posters who have been discussing this article. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 12, 2023 05:34
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ThE eVeNtS bEiNg ReFeRrEd To In ThE aRtIcLe On ThE hAmLiNe UnIvErSiTy ArT cLaSs ToOk PlAcE mOrE tHaN a WeEk AgO, aNd ThErEfOrE iT iS aGaInSt ThE rUlEs Of ThIs ThReAd To QuOtE oR dIsCuSs ThE aRtIcLe. I rEgReT tHe ImPeNdInG pRoBaTiOnS oF tHe PoStErS wHo HaVe BeEn DiScUsSiNg ThIs ArTiClE. Get a life.
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Jan 12, 2023 05:41
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Discendo Vox posted:the fact that the notion isn't and wasn't universally held is straight up the kind of "oh cool I didn't know that" hook that one uses to appeal to undergrads under other circumstances, like the colossal clusterfuck of biblical authorship. Hamline University Student Newspaper posted:The Oracle was able to identify these two images using video of the lecture. The first was a 14th century depiction of the Prophet receiving his first revelation from the archangel Gabriel, created by Rashīd al-Dīn, a Persian Muslim scholar and historian.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:09
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Barrel Cactaur posted:This is almost literally the poo poo terrorists use in justifying dynamiting archeological sites. Its not that it is used as a item of devotion, its that its an image that doesn't fit into their worldview, including the fact that other interpretations of Islam (and other cultures in general) have ever existed. The most extreme forms of this ban depictions of the human figure entirely. I'm of the opinion that there's a non-zero number of instances of iconoclasm where it's really about pissing off white people in the West than it is to fulfill religious doctrine.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:21
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Rebel Blob posted:One thing to not here is that this is a historical piece of art created by devout Muslims. The prohibition against depicting Mohammad has not been and is not universal in the Islamic world. It was ignorant of the school's administration to write that the professor's actions were Islamaphobic, an inaccurate understanding of the issue that generalizes a specific religious viewpoint to all of the diverse Islamic world. This is true. You can find historical depictions especially in Persia, Central Asia, etc. Here is a small collection (content warning, shows face of prophet) on a tumblr:  https://minyatursanati.tumblr.com/post/102227009168/tarihi-tablolarda-hz-muhammedin-y%FCz%FC Star Man posted:I'm of the opinion that there's a non-zero number of instances of iconoclasm where it's really about pissing off white people in the West than it is to fulfill religious doctrine. Some specific examples would be welcome
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Jan 12, 2023 06:23
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mawarannahr posted:Some specific examples would be welcome I don't have any and am pulling it out of my rear end and just making noise.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:27
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Everyone who was guessing that George Santos isn't George Santos' real name, collect your prizes now https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1613368093551611909
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Jan 12, 2023 06:32
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Youth Decay posted:Everyone who was guessing that George Santos isn't George Santos' real name, collect your prizes now I'm going to guess that Anthony Devolver was the alias. Or one of the aliases. 
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Jan 12, 2023 06:35
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"The Talented Mr. Devolder" doesn't really have the same ring to it.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:38
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm going to guess that Anthony Devolver was the alias. https://www.thedailybeast.com/openly-gay-rep-elect-george-santos-didnt-disclose-divorce-with-woman According to the Daily Beast, his middle name is allegedly Anthony and Devolder is his mother's, the one who died multiple times in different ways, maiden name. He's used it as an alias several times, including running as "Devolder Santos" for Congress in 2020, and ran a GoFundMe for his mother's funeral costs as "Anthony Devolder" on behalf of himself as "Antony Santos". He raised $1,850 of his $9,000 asking amount. Call this motherfucker Devolder Fibsalot because he's just schemes and aliases all the way down.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:44
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VikingofRock posted:She didn't have to look away. She chose to look away. We should make reasonable accommodations for religions (and in this case did), but we shouldn't let religions dictate what is acceptable for everyone else. also if we going to such granular(dumb) measurements of tuition dollars she only lost a few dollars?? also I hope all the students dont cheat on diet and food stuff.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm going to guess that Anthony Devolver was the alias. His full name is reportedly George Anthony Devolder Santos. The "Devolder" comes from his mother, Fatima Aziza Caruso Horta Devolder.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:49
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Angry_Ed posted:"The Talented Mr. Devolder" doesn't really have the same ring to it. I kind of ruined my Revolver Ocelot joke one post up because I thought of it in two seconds and then realized that it's Decoy Octopus who's the one who pretends to be other people.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:50
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nine-gear crow posted:https://www.thedailybeast.com/openly-gay-rep-elect-george-santos-didnt-disclose-divorce-with-woman I half expected the pictures of his mother on the gofundme to just be him in a wig wearing a shawl.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:51
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nine-gear crow posted:I kind of ruined my Revolver Ocelot joke one post up because I thought of it in two seconds and then realized that it's Decoy Octopus who's the one who pretends to be other people. Technically Ocelot also did that. Once. It's really stupid if you think about it for any length of time.
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Jan 12, 2023 06:55
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Devolder they come devolder they fall
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Jan 12, 2023 06:58
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we tell people first entering the working world 'fake it till you make it', then complain when that advice catapults them into the halls of power. just hypocrisy really
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Jan 12, 2023 07:30
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The only place this saga can go from here is that George Santos does not actually exist and the photos and videos are all fakes
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Jan 12, 2023 07:32
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Trump just lost a huge chunk of his black support: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/10/us/diamond-and-silk-lynnette-hardaway-dead.html
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Jan 12, 2023 07:39
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haveblue posted:The only place this saga can go from here is that George Santos does not actually exist and the photos and videos are all fakes who is george santos? he is supposed to be brazilian. some say his father was german. nobody believed he was real. nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear biden tell it, anybody could have worked for santos. you never knew. that was his power. the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. and like that, poof. he's gone
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Jan 12, 2023 07:44
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George Santos used to go by a different name: John Barron.
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Jan 12, 2023 07:56
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Oh, I used to work at Caruso, Santos & Devolder. Not that bad.
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Jan 12, 2023 08:14
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Discendo Vox posted:George Santos used to go by a different name: John Barron. He also went by David Dennison
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Jan 12, 2023 08:15
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haveblue posted:The only place this saga can go from here is that George Santos does not actually exist and the photos and videos are all fakes Either that or he murdered the original George Santos and stole his life completely like a changeling or a brood parasite.
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Jan 12, 2023 08:36
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Angry_Ed posted:It's really stupid if you think about it for any length of time. Yeah, that's Metal Gear all right.
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Jan 12, 2023 09:03
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So is santos ... actually a crazy person? Legitimately mentally ill in some way that we find out about soon?
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Jan 12, 2023 09:05
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Kavros posted:So is santos ... actually a crazy person? Legitimately mentally ill in some way that we find out about soon? He's probably just taking right wing cynicism to it's logical conclusion.
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Jan 12, 2023 09:38
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Kavros posted:So is santos ... actually a crazy person? Legitimately mentally ill in some way that we find out about soon? What would that be like? Mr. Burns and the Three Stooges Syndrome but for mental health?
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Jan 12, 2023 09:39
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Rust Martialis posted:Trump just lost a huge chunk of his black support: Good riddance.
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Jan 12, 2023 10:33
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For 12 years you've been asking "who is George Santos?"
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Jan 12, 2023 10:50
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Kavros posted:So is santos ... actually a crazy person? Legitimately mentally ill in some way that we find out about soon? Seems like the next logical step in who the GOP puts forward from Palin to Boebart to MTG to Devolder. Like there's no way in hell the GOP didn't know this about him already now that we see it's at this level.
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Jan 12, 2023 13:59
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Nenonen posted:For 12 years you've been asking "who is George Santos?" Well yeah, the answers keep changing on a monthly basis. Perhaps the true answer is...us. We are all George Santos. Welcome to the Santos, George.
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Jan 12, 2023 14:03
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I guess its a little different because it is/was his actual name not his grandad's name or a euphemism by a reporter but I wonder if calling him either Santos or Devolder is going to become an epic culture war own like Drumpf or Brandon.
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Jan 12, 2023 14:10
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Discendo Vox posted:It's very normal to show things like depictions of Muhammad where relevant to the coursework, such as in history of religion/comparative theology classes- the fact that the notion isn't and wasn't universally held is straight up the kind of "oh cool I didn't know that" hook that one uses to appeal to undergrads under other circumstances, like the colossal clusterfuck of biblical authorship. The basis for the dismissal is like the exact inverse of how all this stuff's supposed to work; the external viewpoint is controlling the scope of academic content, to such an extent that, explicitly, no accommodation is acceptable. There's zero hint of any kind of inappropriateness from the instructor, and every indication that the student or group did this to set precedent on it. Our college has a guiding document that basically says "professors have the freedom to talk about challenging or sensitive topics that are within the scope of practice." We define "scope of practice" specifically because we have had instances where, for example, English professors pontificate on vaccine efficacy (guess what their opinions might be...) or Biology professors talk about Trump. "Academic freedom" as we define it is supposed to protect against this sort of thing from happening. A health professor could talk about abortion if that is the topic of the day, because it is within scope of practice. However, our guiding document defines faculty as being "full-time, tenure-track," specifically exempting adjuncts from protection. I wasn't around for developing that language, so I can't say exactly why we do that, but it could be because an adjunct does not go through the same strict scrutiny that a professor on the tenure track does, and that an adjunct - who is typically on a semester-by-semester or course-by-course contract - doesn't expect the same kind of protections as FTE faculty do. So, I think the argument is, because they aren't employees of the school, they aren't offered the same protections, and thus could be canned for any reason. I suspect that Hamline, being also a private, liberal arts school, operates similarly. (please let's not turn this into a derail about the state of adjuncts in higher ed, because I 100% support them and think they are treated like poo poo a lot of times) If this were something that happened with one of our tenure-track faculty, we have a procedure that needs to be followed, that generally goes "student makes a complaint (ideally first to the "offending" professor, but not necessarily), then goes to the Dean of the School, the Dean gathers facts and makes a decision on whether the complaint is "reasonable," if the student or faculty member doesn't like it, they can complain up to the Provost, the Provost then calls a meeting of an Academic Freedom Committee made up of faculty from around the college who makes a decision, throws that decision up to the Provost, who gets the final say. Needless to say, this process takes forever. There are lots of checks and balances, and there is a committee whose job it is to make sure the faculty feels supported. Our academic freedom procedure is designed specifically to make sure this sort of kerfuffle doesn't happen. Again, we would not have done this in this case because the person was an adjunct. What's also wild about this situation is that the student could have said their thing - "Hamline is racist!" or whatever - and the university could have said something like, "we appreciate the opportunity to have a public dialogue about the subject/we appreciate all viewpoints," etc., and, if they really didn't like what the adjunct did, months later they could just not renew the contract. This entire PR nightmare could have been avoided easily.
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Jan 12, 2023 14:25
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