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Warthur posted:The more I look at this situation the more I think that Wizards have backed themselves into a really silly corner. There's no route they can take out of here without either a) basically surrendering and not accomplishing their intended goals or b) being utter dickbags on some level. Today’s announcement suggests they’re trying to split the difference, admitting they were wrong about some things while not conceding others.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:10
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The Bee posted:How restrictive was the GSL, compared to both the previous and current versions of OGL 1.1?
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Jan 14, 2023 01:11
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I hate the Penny Arcade strip (she says, getting ready to post more in another subforum) but I'm completely unsurprised by this because Gabe got his start in 4e and while I hate Tycho's writing I'm glad they had a thought and sad it wasn't...made...better or more good to look at.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:11
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Hostile V posted:I hate the Penny Arcade strip (she says, getting ready to post more in another subforum) but I'm completely unsurprised by this because Gabe got his start in 4e and while I hate Tycho's writing I'm glad they had a thought and sad it wasn't...made...better or more good to look at. Honestly, by modern Penny Arcade strip standards, it wasn't terrible!
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Jan 14, 2023 01:13
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I'm refraining from having any particularly strong opinions just because this all seems like a situation that will look totally different in hindsight a month or even just a few days from now. But after watching that I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't be so bad for Hasbro to devour gaming like the Ogdru Jahad, leaving nothing behind and dissipating into the cold void itself so that no monument or memory remains.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:15
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Warthur posted:The more I look at this situation the more I think that Wizards have backed themselves into a really silly corner. There's no route they can take out of here without either a) basically surrendering and not accomplishing their intended goals or b) being utter dickbags on some level. That Old Tree posted:I'm refraining from having any particularly strong opinions just because this all seems like a situation that will look totally different in hindsight a month or even just a few days from now. But after watching that I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't be so bad for Hasbro to devour gaming like the Ogdru Jahad, leaving nothing behind and dissipating into the cold void itself so that no monument or memory remains.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:32
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Father Wendigo posted:I don't think even a full surrender will stop the 'Not-WotC' portion of the industry from going ahead their proposed open source system. It shouldn't, tbh. Having the concept of an open source license be in the hands of a company and not a proper open source organization was always kind of a ticking time bomb. I'd be happy if Wizards dialed things back gracefully and One DnD didn't have this baggage stuck to it, but even if they do separating from the OGL is the right move.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:40
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Hostile V posted:I hate the Penny Arcade strip (she says, getting ready to post more in another subforum) but I'm completely unsurprised by this because Gabe got his start in 4e and while I hate Tycho's writing I'm glad they had a thought and sad it wasn't...made...better or more good to look at. Their podcast where they played 4E was what got me to buy the books back in the day. It sounded like fun, and it turned out that impression was right. I still remember when they did the live game of 5E and the guy running it couldn't explain why squares had been replaced by feet, and Scott Kurtz visibly lost interest 15 minutes in and was just doodling his character because all his cool powers were gone. Even before the Zak stuff that turned me off to the new edition entirely.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:09
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Arivia posted:Today’s announcement suggests they’re trying to split the difference, admitting they were wrong about some things while not conceding others. Some of the stuff they are saying I am not actually against. Though I agree unless they want to produce for D&D there is no reason for other companies to go back to them.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:14
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Hostile V posted:I hate the Penny Arcade strip (she says, getting ready to post more in another subforum) but I'm completely unsurprised by this because Gabe got his start in 4e and while I hate Tycho's writing I'm glad they had a thought and sad it wasn't...made...better or more good to look at. One of the more recent comics recreates an exchange where his daughter asks him to stop putting her in the comics because her friends keep asking her if she actually has a cloaca and his takeaway from this is that the youths are still reading Penny Arcade so he's still got it.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:19
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Kurieg posted:One of the more recent comics recreates an exchange where his daughter asks him to stop putting her in the comics because her friends keep asking her if she actually has a cloaca and his takeaway from this is that the youths are still reading Penny Arcade so he's still got it. That is not in fact the takeaway, it's very much a joke based on the relationship he has with his kids, and his kids' friends that he runs D&D for.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:36
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Vire posted:I am not sure how they will legally enforce anything before 2.0 can use the old OGL but you have to use 2.0 going forward. Wouldn't that mean that 1.0a is still authorized? It’s not hard. You say “1.0a is no longer an authorized license; the offer to license under these terms is no longer open. Existing licenses already accepted via publication are not impacted.” Which is what every IP lawyer I know thought was their intent from day one. (Also I’m not sure why anyone thinks that the OGL 1.0 authorizes sub licenses. It states sub licenses do not terminate automatically if the license is terminated w/r/t a particular entity, but it doesn’t actually grant the licensee the right to sub license. It’s a pretty badly written document, so glad Paizo decided to use the people who hosed it up originally for the ORC.)
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Jan 14, 2023 03:16
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That Old Tree posted:I'm refraining from having any particularly strong opinions just because this all seems like a situation that will look totally different in hindsight a month or even just a few days from now. But after watching that I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't be so bad for Hasbro to devour gaming like the Ogdru Jahad, leaving nothing behind and dissipating into the cold void itself so that no monument or memory remains. Out - out are the docs - out all! And, over each naturalistic term, The streamers, textually crawl, Scream into their cameras and squirm, And the nerds, all pallid and twee, Unlike, unsubscribe, and flee, The play is the tragedy, "RPG," And the hero, the Conquerer Wotsee.
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Jan 14, 2023 03:28
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Kalman posted:(Also I’m not sure why anyone thinks that the OGL 1.0 authorizes sub licenses. It states sub licenses do not terminate automatically if the license is terminated w/r/t a particular entity, but it doesn’t actually grant the licensee the right to sub license. It’s a pretty badly written document, so glad Paizo decided to use the people who hosed it up originally for the ORC.) Section 7: Use of Product Identity is the one that people are thinking of with sublicenses. It's the one that's used for compatibility licenses, like the old d20/3e D&D one, Pathfinder, Old-School Essentials, etc. Those probably legally aren't actually called sublicenses but to a layman they're licenses that are subsidiary to the OGL, so it makes sense to call them sublicenses.
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Jan 14, 2023 03:43
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Serf posted:Their podcast where they played 4E was what got me to buy the books back in the day. It sounded like fun, and it turned out that impression was right. I still remember when they did the live game of 5E and the guy running it couldn't explain why squares had been replaced by feet, and Scott Kurtz visibly lost interest 15 minutes in and was just doodling his character because all his cool powers were gone. Even before the Zak stuff that turned me off to the new edition entirely. We're the same person
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Jan 14, 2023 03:46
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Trying to make a deal about sticking it to the NFTs and the big corporations seems both hypocritical coming from a big corporation, and a bit off-target given they specifically have problems with backlash from their now former corporate partners who are now no longer willing to support their product.
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Jan 14, 2023 03:48
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Has anyone seen a Downfall video of this entire fiasco? Sure seems like it would give me a laugh. Also, I am not impressed with PF1 after trying (and failing) to ever finish both computer games. But now I am activily interested in PF2 and not much interested in D&D6. Well done Hasbro!
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Jan 14, 2023 03:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Trying to make a deal about sticking it to the NFTs and the big corporations seems both hypocritical coming from a big corporation, and a bit off-target given they specifically have problems with backlash from their now former corporate partners who are now no longer willing to support their product. I think they'd already given up on getting the third party publishers back. Instead, they were trying to give a comfy statement to their playerbase to try and make them feel heard and empowered, and ideally stick around instead of looking over to what those other corporations are doing.
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Jan 14, 2023 04:10
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Serf posted:Their podcast where they played 4E was what got me to buy the books back in the day. It sounded like fun, and it turned out that impression was right. I still remember when they did the live game of 5E and the guy running it couldn't explain why squares had been replaced by feet, and Scott Kurtz visibly lost interest 15 minutes in and was just doodling his character because all his cool powers were gone. Even before the Zak stuff that turned me off to the new edition entirely. The exchange that always gets me is one of them talking about how cool it was that Clerics could heal and attack in the same turn, or heal by attacking, or anything but choosing to Just Heal in a turn. Then Mearls or whoever says "Actually that's not how this game works" and the player just deflates.
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Jan 14, 2023 04:12
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https://twitter.com/ShawnTomkin/status/1614068810323218433
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Jan 14, 2023 04:48
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Admiral Joeslop posted:The exchange that always gets me is one of them talking about how cool it was that Clerics could heal and attack in the same turn, or heal by attacking, or anything but choosing to Just Heal in a turn. Then Mearls or whoever says "Actually that's not how this game works" and the player just deflates. I'm in the same boat. I loved hitting people with my axe and radiating healing vibes as a result.
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Jan 14, 2023 04:52
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Serf posted:Their podcast where they played 4E was what got me to buy the books back in the day. It sounded like fun, and it turned out that impression was right. I still remember when they did the live game of 5E and the guy running it couldn't explain why squares had been replaced by feet, and Scott Kurtz visibly lost interest 15 minutes in and was just doodling his character because all his cool powers were gone. Even before the Zak stuff that turned me off to the new edition entirely. Absolutely the same, yeah
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Jan 14, 2023 05:05
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Pinwiz11 posted:I'm in the same boat. I loved hitting people with my axe and radiating healing vibes as a result. The system had its issues, but compared to other D&D editions it really spread the fun around and that's the main thing I remember fondly.
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Jan 14, 2023 05:27
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Yeah, that Penny-Arcade episode was a hilarious harbinger of things to come. I also liked the live AP they did around that time (the D&D people, not PA) that had a big moment where they were all on some rooftop, the DM called for a perception check, everyone biffs it, and the visibly confused DM stammers for a second before finally saying "Okay, you wait 15 minutes or so, now roll another perception check" or something.
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Jan 14, 2023 05:31
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Reddit is reporting that the statement has been edited. So they couldn’t even do this right.
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Jan 14, 2023 06:55
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Comstar posted:Reddit is reporting that the statement has been edited. It was edited before it was posted, and traces of the original draft were left. Should note it was just changing of language in minor ways.
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Jan 14, 2023 06:59
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theironjef posted:Yeah, that Penny-Arcade episode was a hilarious harbinger of things to come. I also liked the live AP they did around that time (the D&D people, not PA) that had a big moment where they were all on some rooftop, the DM called for a perception check, everyone biffs it, and the visibly confused DM stammers for a second before finally saying "Okay, you wait 15 minutes or so, now roll another perception check" or something. I think that GM was Mearls himself, even.
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Jan 14, 2023 13:55
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Hostile V posted:I hate the Penny Arcade strip (she says, getting ready to post more in another subforum) but I'm completely unsurprised by this because Gabe got his start in 4e and while I hate Tycho's writing I'm glad they had a thought and sad it wasn't...made...better or more good to look at. The news post was really good, imho. Couple bits that stood out to me: quote:I'm shocked, startled, and mystified that there hasn't been an announcement from Critical Role slash Darrington Press, who has the most to lose, and whose legendary exploits the new OGL seems custom made to curtail. quote:D&D is on its most successful iteration ever precisely because it's a universal touchstone. I've heard - you know, from you - that streaming and podcasts are to thank for that. I can't really make heads or tails of your apology, but let me say this: you have entered treacherous waters entirely of your own volition. Literally just turn around, and walk back out. Agreed. Serf posted:Their podcast where they played 4E was what got me to buy the books back in the day. It sounded like fun, and it turned out that impression was right. I still remember when they did the live game of 5E and the guy running it couldn't explain why squares had been replaced by feet, and Scott Kurtz visibly lost interest 15 minutes in and was just doodling his character because all his cool powers were gone. Even before the Zak stuff that turned me off to the new edition entirely. Thinking back, a lot of the cool stuff in that 1st season of Critical Role was either 1) homebrewed stuff brought in from the Pathfinder campaign they were playing at home (Taliesin's Gunslinger conversion, Grog the Goliath, Keyleth the elemental druid, Mercer's Dramatic Resurrection Mechanics etc.) or 2) The Bard doing 5e Bard things, i.e. being OP as gently caress. I think in some ways this could be what 5e is for a lot of people. The campaign I played in last night: The players are mostly plumbers and no one gives two shits about OGL, but of course we're playing in a homebrew sewer-level that's a cross between the Underdark and Ravenholm, but, you know, in the sewer. Also, we all have guns. Like all the cool stuff going on here is almost in spite of the underlying 5e system. I think 4e has more of that coolness baked in, and yeah, I too chuckle at how Paizo eventually came to the same conclusion as WotC when it came to creating a follow-up to 3.5e. PF 2e has a very similar feel. Baked in coolness vs. "finding the fun" of 5e. I dunno, my viewpoint is extremely myopic as I only have my own experiences to draw from, but either way, it feels like OGL 2 wants to kill off both the PF 2e approach and the "customized 5e" approach. We could never play our homebrew sewer adventure in some lovely transaction-based WotC VTT. Maybe Foundry VTT with enough plugins and modules? But I don't think WotC VTT will come anywhere near the level of customizability needed to make 5e fun.
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Jan 14, 2023 15:45
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Yeah the baked in coolness in pf2e is selling it really well to my players. They're going through character creation now and loving all the options and looking at future feats, and loving how it's not giving up an ASI to get them. My buddies wife plays a Barbarian and is loving the instincts, and is like "omg I can scare enemies to death, or pick up and yeet party members around and they can attack on landing" Sure this is stuff we could house rule and figure out but the fact it's there in the rules and they think of cool stuff like that is nice. Makes my life easier as a DM too
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Jan 14, 2023 17:50
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Honestly the easiest way to sell pf2e is to give people the list of feats for their class and let them read the cool poo poo they can do.
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Jan 14, 2023 18:55
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Lamuella posted:Honestly the easiest way to sell pf2e is to give people the list of feats for their class and let them read the cool poo poo they can do. Tell them about the gunslinger feat where you throw a throwing weapon at the enemy and then shoot it in midair so it hits harder.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:03
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I would like to know more about the group of tabletop-enthusiast plumbers, personally.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:36
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grassy gnoll posted:I would like to know more about the group of tabletop-enthusiast plumbers, personally. The DM recently became a professional plumber. At the company he works for, another guy had played D&D a lot when he was a kid. Another guy got talked into trying it out by those two. There have been multiple adventures involving dungeons/towers/castles with pipeworks controlling such things as: acid pools, subterranean moats and other water obstacles, fire suppression systems, gas vents, and so on. I'm a software engineer, and I guess this is payback for all the times I ran Shadowrun with involved decking/hacking scenarios. I'm not complaining, though. The DM is really good at DMing, and the other guys are insanely fun to play with as well.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:50
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LegalEagle is on the case EDIT: The gist is "You don't actually need the OGL for most of the things you might think you do". Zurai fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 19:55
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Linda Codega continues to be excellent and is basically the go to journalist for the industry at this point. https://twitter.com/lincodega/status/1614283426336542720
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Jan 14, 2023 20:05
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Zurai posted:LegalEagle is on the case I think he does not quite grasp the issue as he largely frames it in terms of "does this allow me to make Homebrew content" instead of anything like Pathfinder or VTTs or the like.
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Jan 14, 2023 21:23
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Roadie posted:The "TSR" grifters have nothing to do with the OGL, though. I am objecting to the specific objection that WotC is just using diversity and inclusion as a shield while having zero commitment to those values. They do have some commitment. Some people don't like that and will happily attack the corporation for being "insincere" in the hopes that they'll quit even paying lip-service to diversity, much less changing the game or spending money promoting it. Confusing the issue or treating WotC as if they are already doing nothing actually assists the people who wish they were doing nothing. A company that didn't care about diversity or inclusion, and there's plenty still out there, especially in the TG industry, would never have even made the attempt to invoke it. Fighting for diversity isn't like D&D combat: if you make enough successful attacks, you might not have defeated the enemy yet, but you have made its actions less effective. Gao posted:I'm watching The Rules Lawyer read and comment on this document, and he pointed out that "VTT-uses" could easily mean something like you streaming yourself playing a game on Foundry, as that's use of a VTT. This doesn't necessarily mean they're allowing you to make a commercial VTT with OGL content. Note that the other things in that sentence are things fans do with their content. I feel like we need to see the actual OGL document before really believing WotC meaningfully backtracked on anything. Very true. But as I've suggested already, WotC could have just brazened the situation out. Maybe the execs believe they can make small changes to the OGL they were going to publish, wait a few months, and then publish without complaint, but if the blowback was enough to halt the original release then a similar blowback is going to be as bad or worse for them. Screw this up a second time and the Hasbro senior VPs may start smelling blood in the water. I suspect they'll try to keep a few key items--in particular, protecting their as-yet undeveloped VTT from competition and trying to undercut the number of third-party developers pulling in millions from the RPG community for a D&D-derivative product--but it's unclear yet how many concessions they plan to make. I'd wager they'll give a lot of ground on in-print products, especially given the higher bar to get something into print, while trying to hold the line on "born digital" works. As there's no way they can allow the 1.0a license to stand if they want to do that, they are going to have to either revoke it effective a given date for all products released subsequent to that date, or they're going to have to release One as a non-OGL product. I'd think the latter course of action would be more reasonable at this stage, but we'll see.
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Jan 14, 2023 21:34
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Narsham posted:I am objecting to the specific objection that WotC is just using diversity and inclusion as a shield while having zero commitment to those values. This is literally the bare minimum standard any company of this size/scale is held to The reason it comes across as insincere is because they are required to be diverse and inclusive and the issue that the public is discussing didn't have anything to do with inclusivity or diversity, it had to do with a very large company rescinding an agreement in an attempt to seize everyone's profit and IP It'd be like a company responding to criticism about a breach of contract by pointing out how accessible their business is to the handicapped, on account of all the ramps they have installed and the handicapped parking spaces in their parking lot WotC/Hasbro has marketed their internal diversity a lot but it doesn't mean anything about how the company actually operates internally and if they were seriously committed to diversity they wouldn't be using it like this (as a shield, to defend their company from backlash over a terrible thing they did)
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Jan 14, 2023 21:49
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Narsham posted:Some people don't like that and will happily attack the corporation for being "insincere" in the hopes that they'll quit even paying lip-service to diversity, much less changing the game or spending money promoting it. "everyone who is openly suspicious of a corporation, that is regularly openly evil, of not actually giving a gently caress about progressive issues are the REAL racists who just want things worse" is a hell of a take Skyelan fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 21:53
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Narsham posted:I am objecting to the specific objection that WotC is just using diversity and inclusion as a shield while having zero commitment to those values.
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