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Yeah, Junker Queen is extremely engaging to play, it just sucks that her skillshot is not really that good. It is really funny sticking a Winston/D.va/Doom with it though and yoinking them back after they try to escape.
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Jan 17, 2023 13:51
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"Verbal stop throwing by playing junker queen you have to play meta" *is 9/9/3* ?? OK I'll go Ori then IMMEDIATELY pick up a pick on both healers kill a dps with a spear and ult "Good job Verbal now we can win" I love Ori but I was having fun :/ And then the next two games I went hog out of spite and had at least 10k healing both games lmao tanks
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Jan 17, 2023 16:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:that's one of the core strategies in ow: if you can outskill the opponent on a mirror matchup, then you should just play the mirror This is why I'm stuck forever as Ori
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Jan 17, 2023 16:30
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dogstile posted:It's really weird that a tanks job is to just go murder stuff faster than the other tank while everyone else's job is to "not die", tbh. I really am feeling this. I miss 6v6 2CP, but I've always been in a minority on that topic. It's so much fun building up the pressure against a stout defensive position and then eventually popping it with teamwork and strategy. Running away from an unkillable monster horse while dodging sniper fire isn't as fun.
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Jan 17, 2023 16:37
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verbal enema posted:This is why I'm stuck forever as Ori Elor-hell 
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Jan 17, 2023 16:47
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I've just had a match where the other DPS player spent the whole loving match yelling at me for throwing because I was playing Symmetra and then we won the match AND I had the best DPS stats AND I got the POTG. Then he said "I'm sorry I guess you played alright after all", which made the whole thing even more annoying. I should just disable the chat.
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Jan 17, 2023 17:00
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Jack Trades posted:Then he said "I'm sorry I guess you played alright after all", which made the whole thing even more annoying. How's the Greek mode going for everyone?
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Jan 17, 2023 17:07
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Father Wendigo posted:How's the Greek mode going for everyone? It's fun as a tank brawl mode. The more Lucios there are, the worse it becomes because you'll end up being chain-stunned over and over and over and over
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Jan 17, 2023 17:24
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I have success playing Ram against Orissa. I'm terrible at Hog so it's either Ram or Orissa for me. I love JQ but I just can't make her work.
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Jan 17, 2023 17:32
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:It's fun as a tank brawl mode. The more Lucios there are, the worse it becomes because you'll end up being chain-stunned over and over and over and over Lucio is the only fun character to play in that mode and everyone knows it
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Jan 17, 2023 18:21
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someone actually tests the aim assist vs m&k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Q-us_jc2I
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Jan 18, 2023 00:04
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The thing I really can't get past about the loving overwatch community is that in a competitive ladder in a team game, bright sparks decide that they're going to slampick ball and play him as a ranged dps that opens no space at all for your team. Or similar intellectual feats. People don't give a gently caress about throwing matches for the other 4 players on their team. They just don't. And there is nothing, nothing at all, that you can do about this. "It averages out" if you play a very, very large number of games which I don't have time to play. It's absolutely hair-tearingly frustrating to watch these glazed-eyed motherfuckers just doing their dumb poo poo, over and over and over again. And then pointing at their mediocre stats to 'prove that they were doing something' because they simply don't understand even the basics.
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Jan 18, 2023 13:04
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SadisTech posted:The thing I really can't get past about the loving overwatch community is that in a competitive ladder in a team game, bright sparks decide that they're going to slampick ball and play him as a ranged dps that opens no space at all for your team. Or similar intellectual feats. People don't give a gently caress about throwing matches for the other 4 players on their team. They just don't. And there is nothing, nothing at all, that you can do about this. "It averages out" if you play a very, very large number of games which I don't have time to play. It's absolutely hair-tearingly frustrating to watch these glazed-eyed motherfuckers just doing their dumb poo poo, over and over and over again. And then pointing at their mediocre stats to 'prove that they were doing something' because they simply don't understand even the basics. I have an idea. It's a bit radical but hear me out. Maybe we could make it so that there are two tanks instead of one, so that if one tank is trash, you still have the other more competent tank player to fall back onto? Wouldn't that be amazing? Also, to be fair, that's the case in literally every team game, OW2 just made it way worse. EDIT: Somewhat related bit from OW1 development blogs. 
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Jan 18, 2023 13:09
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the nonmeta tank player [assuming they mainly play ball] is giving you about even odds to win the game against the other team's tank. that's how elo ratings and matchmaking works if ball is their main pick, they might even be throwing the game by not picking ball!
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Jan 18, 2023 13:21
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comedyblissoption posted:if ball is their main pick, they might even be throwing the game by not picking ball! and if it's not? elo's not granular enough to pick that up, they'll be in an artificially inflated position with a more difficult/less optimised hero and will lose. hell, even if it is their main you could be meeting them on a downturn as heroes that are easier to perform with become counters and they have to work harder to maintain their previous rank. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Jan 18, 2023 |
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Jan 18, 2023 13:25
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Had a game where one tank took ball and the other took doom and neither could get any actual picks so the fights just dragged on and the robot didn't go anywhere until finally one tank switched to hog and we pushed into their spawn gg.
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Jan 18, 2023 13:45
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yes if someone picks a hero theyre not familiar with, theyre usually going to do a lot worse even if that hero is the meta just understand that if the game is a master I ball main vs a master I roadhog main, it's an even game between those two tanks
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Jan 18, 2023 13:45
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It's interesting, because for the past few years I've played a game with absolutely no matchmaking by skill at all. The attitude there is always "if you want even matchmaking you can make a clan and play the clan battles mode", and random battles and even ranked battles there are just random matchmaking with whoever is in the queue. I play that game at about the the top 1% in terms of stats and win rate, and am so used to playing random games where some of my teammates literally don't even understand the basic mechanics of the game that the nominal skill disparity in an OW2 game seems.... trivial in comparison. Or maybe I just suck too bad at OW2 right now to fully understand how bad it is.
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Jan 18, 2023 13:50
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imagine there was a chess ladder where people are allowed to choose if they only play white or black if a 2000 rated white-only player plays a 2000 rated black-only player [assuming accurate ratings], they both have about a 50% chance to win even though white is the stronger side "skill" in an elo rating system is your predicted probability of winning hth
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Jan 18, 2023 13:55
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I have absolutely zero problem with someone playing ball if they can vaguely goddamn play ball. I have a big problem with being given a tank player on any hero who thinks that their role is "hang around somewhere behind our team, sometimes off to the side of the enemy team, never actually try to take any space off them, just shoot a bit and die sometimes" I hope that clarifies my post comedyblissoption posted:just understand that if the game is a master I ball main vs a master I roadhog main, it's an even game between those two tanks ah I see the problem, you are operating on the assumption that the tank role, the most impactful role in the game, is going to be evenly matched on hidden mmr in ranked matches I have some bad news. SadisTech fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jan 18, 2023 |
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Jan 18, 2023 13:57
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What if I pick black for 90% of my matches and win over half but 10% of the time I pick ball and win 35%?
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Jan 18, 2023 13:58
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You're making a flawed core assumption that ELO = Skill which is only true after a large number of matches.
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Jan 18, 2023 13:59
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if theyre trying to win the game the way they know how, then they are very likely giving you an even game against the enemy's tank if they are constantly doing stupid things, it's also very likely the meta slave enemy tank is constantly doing stupid things and is actually the much worse player than the ball player who is overcoming their disadvantages to be rated the same
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Jan 18, 2023 13:59
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SadisTech posted:ah I see the problem, you are operating on the assumption that the tank role, the most impactful role in the game, is going to be evenly matched on hidden mmr in ranked matches the issue in this hypothetical situation is a matchmaker not being able to find an even mmr game and absolutely not the hero picks
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Jan 18, 2023 14:04
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You are going to get obvious disparities sometimes. Sometimes teams just don't work well, sometimes people don't know how to play with ball, ball might be having a really lovely day, etc. I ran into a dude who had no idea how to play against Zarya while i was loving about, despite him having a favorable matchup. poo poo happens sometimes. Jack Trades posted:You're making a flawed core assumption that ELO = Skill which is only true after a large number of matches. Well, unless you have a better solution, you should probably play more matches. But don't think you're ever going to get into a perfect elo where you won't run into tanks that are outclassed. It's a pvp game, that has players smurfing constantly and wildly different playstyles. Gone are the days where everyone just went goats or dive and everyone kinda merged where they should be, they've made the game far more swingy, for better or worse.
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Jan 18, 2023 14:08
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yeah there's a lot of X factors that make the game swingy like smurfs or whatever. but guess what that's not the fault of the ball main! if the smurf was on the ball player's side, they would stomp the meta tank players! the player is far more important than the hero, and the elo rating rates the player not the hero. for a very obvious example of this, if the best ball player on the ladder smurfed in silver as ball against an orisa silver main, the ball player would dominate. a plat II ball wins 50% of the time vs the plat II meta. it's just how it works out! please stop silently or actively raging at the nonmeta picks in your games thanks in advance!
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Jan 18, 2023 14:13
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comedyblissoption posted:if theyre trying to win the game the way they know how, then they are very likely giving you an even game against the enemy's tank By this logic every game should be a real down to the wire push and pull between evenly matched players who are all playing at the same fundamental level. Instead we see a distinct pattern of matches being extremely, extremely one sided on a very very frequent basis where one team has much higher performance stats across the board than the other. This is because the teams are not evenly skill balanced across roles in most matches and in many cases are not even evenly matched in average MMR, if this system is anything like that in the original Overwatch. However, even if the teams were evenly balanced in average MMR, a variance in tank skill will make a big difference. This is because the tank role directly functions as a multiplier to the effectiveness and survivability of the other heroes on their team. A tank that is performing at a higher level will claim more space for their team, allowing more advantageous positioning, and therefore better application of damage and healing, more ability to leverage good cover, and better routes to rotate where needed. This is true even at lower levels of play. A tank skill difference will give one team so much more pressure than the other that the contest becomes extremely one sided. This is actually an entirely different scenario from what we see (or at least, I see) occurring on a regular basis, where it genuinely looks like some players are picking heroes they are almost unfamilar with and experimenting with them in ranked play. Your logic saying that the off meta Ball and "meta slave" Ramattra are adding roughly equal value simply does not apply to an instance where the Ramattra is positioned roughly appropriately and performing the tank role for his team, where the Ball is not engaging with the enemy team, not disrupting them, not achieving significant damage, and not contributing at all to team fights, meaning that the front line of his team consists of whatever DPS heroes the team has for as long as they can survive (not long). This is clearly and obviously not an even skill match. This is a player choosing to throw a game, or having such lower skill than their opponent that the effect is identical to throwing. What you lay out above is true to the extent that your assumptions hold good, but they just don't. SadisTech fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jan 18, 2023 |
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Jan 18, 2023 14:16
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IMO Comedy bliss is making a lot of assumptions, for example that a tank regularly plays ball at the same level of his other characters instead of only occasionally and with a far lower win rate than his other picks. I know for a fact that I don't play all characters at the same level.
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Jan 18, 2023 14:18
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comedyblissoption posted:a ball main who is rated very significantly higher than a meta main is going to probabilistically curbstomp the meta main. it's the definition of elo rating. Again, I'm not complaining about the choice of Ball! That was entirely your takeaway. I'm complaining about the PLAYER not having a semblance of competence to match the enemy tank. This is not about hero choice, it's about MATCH MAKING SUCKING. E: Or the player base sucking because they are happy to throw games while practicing in Comp. Either way - it's poo poo for everyone else on their team. E2: The fact that you keep talking about tanks being at the same Elo makes me wonder if you know that the current system averages out your hidden MMR across the five players on your team. Theoretically. And then matches your team against another team with an average MMR that is within a certain range. So one team will likely have an inherent MMR advantage, however slight, unless evenly matched teams were available when the matchmaker was searching - and then of those teams, one might have their tank as their lowest MMR player, while the other might have their tank as their highest MMR player. So given that there are five people on each team, the odds are very good that the tanks will NOT have equivalent MMR values and are likely to vary quite a bit. SadisTech fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jan 18, 2023 |
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Jan 18, 2023 14:19
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How do you propose one practices tanking in competitive matches without tanking in competitive matches
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Jan 18, 2023 14:23
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Dynamite Dog posted:How do you propose one practices tanking in competitive matches without tanking in competitive matches I mean you generally don't do your very basic practice of a character in competitive matches? You don't climb to whatever rank you can achieve and then go "Gee now I'll throw myself down to bronze while I pick up this guy" unless you're a streamer doing it for the views on the climb back up. And if you do do this, you're being a right shitheel to the other players who are getting matched with you because of alllll the factors literally just discussed above. Yeah?
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Jan 18, 2023 14:29
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Man, I really want the event Echo skin (even if it's an old ow2 skin AND has absolutely nothing to do with the year of the rabbit), but it forces me to play CTF blitz which has to be the dumbest loving mode. Race to score first so the enemy team leaves and then score 4 more times uncontested! Yet another mode in which tanks are absolutely overpowered! Now I have to farm normal CTF too, which at least is a game you can play but still completely broken. At least this time there's no "get 300 kills with a specific character" challenge.
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Jan 18, 2023 14:31
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SadisTech posted:I mean you generally don't do your very basic practice of a character in competitive matches? You don't climb to whatever rank you can achieve and then go "Gee now I'll throw myself down to bronze while I pick up this guy" unless you're a streamer doing it for the views on the climb back up. And if you do do this, you're being a right shitheel to the other players who are getting matched with you because of alllll the factors literally just discussed above. Yeah? This is a fine response but not to my comment about competitive practice.
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Jan 18, 2023 14:32
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SadisTech, imagine there is a player that plays just ball and they end up at gold IV and stay there after many many games. in order for this to happen, they have to win about 50% of games at gold IV. now imagine the same for a rammatra or some other meta hero who ends up at gold IV. for this to happen, they have to win about 50% of the games. now imagine they face off against each other. it's likely the ball has a 50% win rate. since it's a 50% win rate, the game is by definition even! a game does not have to come down to the wire to be an evenly matched game. a single instance of a game could be a complete blowout and still have been evenly matched. ow2 for various reasons is probably just a more snowbally game than ow1, but it's not b/c some people are picking off meta picks on ladder. Cpt_Obvious posted:IMO Comedy bliss is making a lot of assumptions, for example that a tank regularly plays ball at the same level of his other characters instead of only occasionally and with a far lower win rate than his other picks. I know for a fact that I don't play all characters at the same level.
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Jan 18, 2023 14:33
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SadisTech posted:E2: The fact that you keep talking about tanks being at the same Elo makes me wonder if you know that the current system averages out your hidden MMR across the five players on your team. Theoretically. And then matches your team against another team with an average MMR that is within a certain range. So one team will likely have an inherent MMR advantage, however slight, unless evenly matched teams were available when the matchmaker was searching - and then of those teams, one might have their tank as their lowest MMR player, while the other might have their tank as their highest MMR player. So given that there are five people on each team, the odds are very good that the tanks will NOT have equivalent MMR values and are likely to vary quite a bit. it's possible blizz or the matchmaker is already doing this, but it's hard to know without data and you can't get the data since blizz has made everything so opaque anyways one of the best tips for playing a competitive online multiplayer video james is to focus on your own play and not the stupidity of your teammates [except as a funny story type thing]. you will have a much better and funner time! every single multiplayer team game in existence has the complaints you are bringing up. comedyblissoption fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jan 18, 2023 |
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Jan 18, 2023 14:39
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Dynamite Dog posted:This is a fine response but not to my comment about competitive practice. It's directly a response to your comment about competitive practice. Competitive is not the place for learning hero fundamentals, specifically because you have an MMR value based on your existing hero pool for a role, and practicing a new hero will put you at a dramatically lower effective MMR and essentially lead to your throwing games. There is a reason that many players, particularly high level players, will create an entirely fresh account for learning a new hero or role. Refining skill is perfectly acceptable once you have the basics down - you'll probably move down in MMR but that's just going to happen. But picking up a mechanically complex hero and just coming into it cold is really being an rear end to the people getting matched on your team with the expectation that your performance will be at your expected MMR. comedyblissoption posted:SadisTech, imagine there is a player that plays just ball and they end up at gold IV and stay there after many many games. in order for this to happen, they have to win about 50% of games at gold IV. now imagine the same for a rammatra or some other meta hero who ends up at gold IV. for this to happen, they have to win about 50% of the games. Yes man, I understand the point you are making, even agree with it, and have stated several times that you are not even arguing the same topic that I am. Please forget the issue of meta/off meta picks. Please even pretend that I didn't name any specific hero. That is not the concern.
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Jan 18, 2023 14:41
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those are unreasonable expectations for queueing for a ladder in any team multiplayer game in existence sadistech. I suggest lowering the expectations you have of your teammates drastically
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Jan 18, 2023 14:44
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comedyblissoption posted:those are unreasonable expectations for queueing for a ladder in any team multiplayer game in existence sadistech. I suggest lowering the expectations you have of your teammates drastically It is unreasonable to complain about people throwing games is the takeaway from this when you boil it down. Unless you mean that I expect people to create new accounts to practice or whatever, which, no, that was offered as an example to illustrate the point. Quick Play exists and is the ultimate zero stakes practice arena for picking up the fundamentals of a new hero. I expect that people will in fact throw a certain percentage of games at this point. (That percentage is pretty distressingly high if we're being honest about it.) But that doesn't mean that I can't bitch about people doing that. I also expect that people will sneeze and cough without covering their mouths in public but that doesn't mean that they aren't morons and I don't get to get pissed off about it. My point can be distilled into this: A significant proportion of ranked matches, which are in theory the 'serious' way to play this game, are deeply imbalanced. This can split in your favour or against you. This imbalance is often, but not always, down to tank ability being highly different between teams. This may be due to poor matchmaking (likely) and also may be due to players either selecting a hero they have not learned to play at anywhere near their hidden MMR for the role, or intentionally throwing (also likely). Whatever the reasons underlying this situation, it is not good or fun to experience, particularly when you are on the team that is suffering the impact of this imbalance. It would be good if this frequent occurrence of imbalanced matches could be reduced. Blizzard have stated their intention is to introduce role-based skill matching, but we don't have a time frame on this, and I have seen multiple people express that they don't believe it will be practical to implement. We'll see, I suppose.
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Jan 18, 2023 15:00
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I will say one thing that sucks about ow2 is it's way harder to tell if there's a smurf in your game, and ow2 being f2p and making it easier to hide you're a smurf might have made the smurfing problem way worse. it could partly explain how much more snowbally the game is. valorant had such a smurfing problem they spent a bunch of developer time to specifically create a special smurf detection system to kick smurfs back to the rating they should be at
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Jan 18, 2023 15:01
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I am fairly certain that Overwatch 2 has such a system implemented. How effective it is is a matter for debate, but there is definitely a big MMR boost applied to new accounts that enter at higher than expected skill level. The devs made an assumption that new players should be given a starting point of Gold and as it turns out, the average new F2P player entering the game should effectively be low Bronze, so they've had to tweak that. So smurfs should stand out statistically fairly hard, one would think.
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Jan 18, 2023 15:09
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