(Thread IKs:
Nenonen)
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What should the presidential powers be in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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| UNLIMITED!!!! URKKI 2.0!!!!!! |
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3 | 23.08% |
| Sauli should be allowed to telecast to our homes whenever he pleases, but that should be the limit. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| He should be limited to writing mildly worded letters to HBL and other provincial newspapers. |
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2 | 15.38% |
| None. More power to Sanna & Katri & Maria & Li & Anna-Maja & Jenni! |
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2 | 15.38% |
| Unlimited, but every decision must be subject to a plebiscite. |
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0 | 0% |
| None, but the president's life must be video streamed 24 /7 for the duration of their term, with no censorship. |
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4 | 30.77% |
| Total: | 13 votes | ||
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endlessmonotony posted:In Finland there's a fuckton of people who hate Russia and want to antagonize them further, and will do so as long as they feel safe. Do you happen to have any polls or such to substantiate this claim? I know there's a big ol' honking statue for Väinö Tanner in Helsinki, but you realize the man himself is dead, right?
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Jan 19, 2023 07:24
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endlessmonotony posted:I don't give a poo poo about Putin's feelings or respecting Russia for that matter. I'm eagerly waiting for the day when Putin wakes up with a knife in his back, so things can start going back to the previous status quo. I would love to go back to the status quo. Unfortunately, that's not happening. The genie is out of the bottle and it has a black shirt and a red armband. Putin has built a pretty hosed up system which has its own inertia, and while I would love for some liberal to take over, it's more likely that some fascist 2nd in command is going to. We have to 1) protect ourselves and 2) participate in a united front to stop this madness.
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Jan 19, 2023 08:42
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Keisari posted:I would love to go back to the status quo. Unfortunately, that's not happening. The genie is out of the bottle and it has a black shirt and a red armband. Eh, it's clear neither respect for human rights nor sense will save the day, but greed yet might. I don't disagree it's wise to make plans in case it doesn't, but I won't stop worrying about the problems with painting the neighbor and her people as evil, or the other guys as good. They have, um, some problems with race, gender, and sexuality of their own, and tend to be rather hostile towards leftist policy in general.
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Jan 19, 2023 09:01
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endlessmonotony posted:Eh, it's clear neither respect for human rights nor sense will save the day, but greed yet might. I don't support painting Russians as some evil nonhuman people either. Mulla on semmonen sanonta että Venäjä on paska maa mutta venäläiset hieno kansa, kun taas Ranska on hieno maa mutta paska kansa.  The US has certainly a lot of problems and I absolutely loathe the concept of American dominance, but unfortunately we Finns are, despite punching above our weight, as a small nation forced to pick from the options presented, we don't get to make new ones. In other news: https://yle.fi/a/74-20013608 Is translaki seriously going to pass with the help of Kokoomus? What a time to be alive. Edit: I'm wondering if Kokoomus is positioning itself to be a more arvoliberaali porvaripuolue, while Keskusta as the more arvomulkku porvaripuolue. It would make sense considering how citypeople are in general more liberal. Keisari fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Jan 19, 2023 |
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Jan 19, 2023 09:53
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Keisari posted:I don't support painting Russians as some evil nonhuman people either. Mulla on semmonen sanonta että Venäjä on paska maa mutta venäläiset hieno kansa, kun taas Ranska on hieno maa mutta paska kansa. I don't trust America, but I sure as hell don't trust Russia. It's a story that sounds pretty goddamn familiar and we got hosed over the last time too. But I disagree on "just do nothing" working either. No good answers here, pick the least worst. That's also a story that sounds familiar. Also I've been wondering when Kokoomusnaiset start trying to kick the Cockpers to just Pers. If it works, prepare for a century of sinipuna I guess.
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Jan 19, 2023 09:59
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endlessmonotony posted:Eh, it's clear neither respect for human rights nor sense will save the day, but greed yet might. We already had the forever young Erkki Tuomioja opine that Halla-aho's statements about ryssäviha were stupid. Of course we had Sanna Ukkola then drag UKK from beyond the grave to (potentially, Pekka Peitsi was not solely UKK's writings!) approve of ryssäviha, but her job is to make click-bait to start out with. I still don't see this massive outpouring of Finns "who hate Russia and want to antagonize them further". Unfortunately Finland has never really recovered from the "nyt puhutaan ulkopolitiikkaa" era of typerehtiminen, and we won't have an adult conversation in our main-stream media about what it means to be Uncle Sam's satellite, aside from some mikaaaltolas waging their presidential campaign and man-splaining about the goodness of America's collective hearts. But as Keisari wrote above, we didn't really have a lot of choices left to us after Putin began a war of genocidal aggression. Selling leningradians more oltermanni is a quaint idea, but the decision making of the Russian state took that right off the table, and we just have to live with that.
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Jan 19, 2023 10:05
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I personally opposed a NATO membership for Sweden. But after seeing what the Russians are doing in Ukraine. I don't know what I expected. With Russian capabilities. I believe we can win a defensive war. But I'm in the Guard, and I don't want to sort mass graves for the following years for the communities that Russia did manage to conquer before we stopped them. If a NATO membership means that we can stop them on the beaches or even in the Baltic, then fine.
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Jan 19, 2023 10:07
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endlessmonotony posted:I don't trust America, but I sure as hell don't trust Russia. It's a story that sounds pretty goddamn familiar and we got hosed over the last time too. If you're referring how last time all we got was thoughts and prayers and some token aid, I will point out that we were unallied then. This time we will have a formal defensive pact with not just the US, but British as well. (I don't trust the Germans one bit atm lmao) So even if the US succumbs to Fascism and FYGM, we still wont be alone. gently caress, even Poland sounds like a really dependable ally capable of loving Russia up really badly at the moment. Regarding Kok, I wonder if this shift is happening right now. If you had suggested a decade ago, hell, even 5 years ago that Kokoomus would support translaki, I would have thought you were joking. Keisari fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jan 19, 2023 |
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Jan 19, 2023 10:11
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Keisari posted:Edit: I'm wondering if Kokoomus is positioning itself to be a more arvoliberaali porvaripuolue, while Keskusta as the more arvomulkku porvaripuolue. It would make sense considering how citypeople are in general more liberal. Hah, no. Kok is, as name implies, Money the Gathering. There are people who identify as feminists who will obligingly go to another perskeko just to punish the poors, side by side with creeps like Wille.
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Jan 19, 2023 10:11
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Feliday Melody posted:I personally opposed a NATO membership for Sweden. But after seeing what the Russians are doing in Ukraine. I don't know what I expected. Sweden throughout the Cold War "counted on" Finland to buy them a week or two, and I suppose after Sweden finally scrapped their atom bomb program in the seventies they sort of figured NATO would create a sufficient kerfuffle with the Soviets that Sweden wouldn't have to pull their own weight. And of course everyone knew that "modern warfare" in the Cold War sense would just destroy absolutely everything and it didn't really make a lot of sense to prepare for a prolonged struggle. NATO would've nuked Finland to stop the Soviet conventional forces from marching to Norway through Lapland, and the Soviets made a lot of noise in the 60's and 70's about nuking Norway and Denmark if they looked at the Soviets funny.
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Jan 19, 2023 10:15
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Nenonen posted:Hah, no. Kok is, as name implies, Money the Gathering. There are people who identify as feminists who will obligingly go to another perskeko just to punish the poors, side by side with creeps like Wille. Oh certainly the "porvari" part of the term would be priority number 0, 1 and 2. But as a secondary thing that they are more than willing to go along legislation like this, which is frankly a quite drastic departure (in a good way) from the old humiliating doctor circus and sterilization. EDIT: I'm just very surprised that Kok is going along with this, that's all.
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Jan 19, 2023 10:25
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I think the ones in the valiokunta were caught in a situation where they got what they made the most noise about (only one gender change/ year) and were in a situation where torpedoing the whole thing would have looked really bad.
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Jan 19, 2023 10:36
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lollontee posted:some people in this country genuinely want a war with russia, some people mistakenly believe that joining an anti-russian military alliance is going to "deter" russia, but regardless of what we want, russia sees our NATO membership as a direct military threat. whether this is correct or not is irrelevant, point being that the russian state, not just putin, sees NATO as a direct threat to it's national security. so why are we provoking them over this, again? Because we shouldn't live our lives based on whether or not a right-wing fascist conservative dictatorship feels that is "provoking" them or not after they have given literally every possible reason a bordering country might have to engage in said "provocation"? quote:our economically foundational trade relations are over for the forseeable future, the cheap gas and natural resources from russia that were the basis of our remaining heavy industry are gone, and in the coming years, so will the companies that relied on them to remain profitable. Oh no, less reliance to genocidal dictators engaging in an imperialist war of conquest next to us at the very minimum and more impetus towards going with nuclear and renewables, the nightmare. Also [citation needed] for our heavy industry being entirely tied to the third of energy that we used to get from Russia that somehow all apparently went to them and can't in no way be replaced. quote:coupled with an EU wide recession, we're headed for an economic shitstorm the likes of which we haven't seen in my lifetime. Either you're very young or have a very limited ability to form and retain memories, which is it? quote:and all of this, so that ukraine might entertain impossible fantasies of conquering a bunch of people who do not want their rule anymore. how the gently caress is this worth all that we're losing? Yes, it is truly Ukraine's impossible conquering fantasies that have led to this current situation, and nobody in the areas that Russia currently occupies wishes for them to be under Ukrainian rule. Do I need to remind you of the [citation needed] again? You're averse to justifying your claims based on anything else than a vomit of pointless stream of consciousness that has no seeming relevance to reality, so I keep persisting in trying to anchor it to said sphere of existence we both legimately occupy. One source? Let's start easy. One source for your claims. You can do it, buddy!  endlessmonotony posted:Eh, it's clear neither respect for human rights nor sense will save the day, but greed yet might. Plenty of Russians are good. Those who support Putin and have the said "problems" with race, gender, sexuality etc. are evil fascist pieces of poo poo and I have no problems painting them as that. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Jan 19, 2023 |
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Jan 19, 2023 11:21
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Rappaport posted:Selling leningradians more oltermanni is a quaint idea, but the decision making of the Russian state took that right off the table, and we just have to live with that. I can somewhat understand the POV of peaceniks and Russian sympathisers because it would be really, really beneficial to Finnish economy to be Russia's friend. But the thing is, why would Russia be our friend if it can be our master?
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Jan 19, 2023 13:01
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Fish of hemp posted:why would Russia be our friend if it can be our master? Thread title right here.
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Jan 19, 2023 13:43
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Keisari posted:Thread title right here.
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Jan 19, 2023 13:58
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Fish of hemp posted:I can somewhat understand the POV of peaceniks and Russian sympathisers because it would be really, really beneficial to Finnish economy to be Russia's friend. You see, while the rest of the world, especially the treacherous NATO One World Government of the Western Imperialists, is entirely driven by the cold, unfeeling Great Game logic of their reptilian overlords, only our eternal Bae Russia-kun is motivated by pristine feelings of friendship and Buddha-like love for Finland, and would never seek to dominate us or utilize that friendship for any less than neo-Catharist aims to purify the material world from all that stands in our way of becoming perfect leftist angels *shits on the entire collected history of Finnish-Russian relations* *writes "vilpitön vastaus" on the cover with the poo poo*
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Jan 19, 2023 14:13
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There are still people who would sing this without a shred of irony.työväensitsien avaruusajan mobiililaulukirja posted:(Säv. Pikajuna Meksikoon)
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Jan 19, 2023 14:34
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:There are still people who would sing this without a shred of irony. Et sä mua huijaa, nuo on lollontreen postauksia jotka muokkasit säveleen sopiviksi.
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Jan 19, 2023 14:42
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My bet is that a NATO Finland will still cultivate positive relations and happily trade with Russia if they ever calm down. There just isn't much motivation in Finland to actually antagonize Russia that I can see.
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Jan 19, 2023 16:20
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DarkCrawler posted:*writes "vilpitön vastaus" on the cover with the poo poo* turhaan sää mua vihaat jos kaikki muut nauraa sun väittelytaidoille
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Jan 19, 2023 17:15
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Fish of hemp posted:I can somewhat understand the POV of peaceniks and Russian sympathisers because it would be really, really beneficial to Finnish economy to be Russia's friend. because it is more profitable to be friends, rather than trying to rule over someone. eg, it is china who is offering afghanistan trade deals, even though they are supposed to be be islam hating atheist out to exterminate all muslims.
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Jan 19, 2023 17:19
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lollontee posted:because it is more profitable to be friends, rather than trying to rule over someone. Russia seems to be doing their foreign policy with an approach of if you aren't going to be friends with us, we will bomb and invade you and make the remaining people in ruins to be our friends by force. To me that doesn't seem like a healthy basis for friendly foreign relations.... quote:it is china who is offering afghanistan trade deals, even though they are supposed to be be islam hating atheist out to exterminate all muslims. Good for them but isn't dealing with lovely oppressive governments who forbid women from attending universities the exact same thing that western countries are rightly criticized when they deal with countries like Saudi Arabia? So it's just cynical looking the other way kind of deal where getting rear earth minerals/ fossil fuels is the only important aspect. Unless Chinese have bought into the liberal ideology where they think that through trade networks and cultural exchange, oppressive countries will see the light and will start treating their citizens more humanely, but somehow I doubt that the Chinese believe that that will actually work....
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Jan 19, 2023 17:50
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Glah posted:Russia seems to be doing their foreign policy with an approach of if you aren't going to be friends with us, we will bomb and invade you and make the remaining people in ruins to be our friends by force. To me that doesn't seem like a healthy basis for friendly foreign relations.... should any country be required to tolerate hostile regimes then? because there certainly isn't any such international standard in operation, going by the actions of the leading world powers within the past half a century. indeed, if the past century isn't a series of invasions by western countries against hostile regimes, i don't really know what to call the past century. Glah posted:Good for them but isn't dealing with lovely oppressive governments who forbid women from attending universities the exact same thing that western countries are rightly criticized when they deal with countries like Saudi Arabia? So it's just cynical looking the other way kind of deal where getting rear earth minerals/ fossil fuels is the only important aspect. indeed china is to be held to far higher moral standards, than these so-called western democracies, who are happily trading with people who believe that women ought to be held in bondage. while in the case of the west, such behavior is only to be expected as natural, it is indeed a considerable moral question in the case of china, as they are aiming to be a far more moral regime. seriously though, comparing the interaction the western empire has had with afghanistan for the past 22 years, i loving challenge you to come up with anything that china could do by simply trading with afghanistan, that would result in a comparable amount of human suffering that was inflicted on afghanistan by the people we are supposed to be buddy buddy with now, for moral reasons
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Jan 19, 2023 18:14
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Elukka posted:My bet is that a NATO Finland will still cultivate positive relations and happily trade with Russia if they ever calm down. There just isn't much motivation in Finland to actually antagonize Russia that I can see. It is possible but unlikely. Finland in NATO has way less political space to maneuver than Finland as just an EU country. We are absolutely going to sacrifice some of our sovereignty to acquire safety. US has a long history of strong arming their smaller "allies" to further their own goals and Finland most likely wont be an exception. Fated To Be Fat fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jan 19, 2023 |
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Jan 19, 2023 18:24
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lollontee posted:turhaan sää mua vihaat jos kaikki muut nauraa sun väittelytaidoille Ah yes, one needs to do better, like completely ignoring every question that would expose their beliefs as loving idiotic while still claiming they are interested in honest debate. Ja en kyllä noin pikimustana patana rupeaisi väittämään että "kaikki muut nauravat" jollekin toiselle. Eiköhän pää-asiallinen pilkan kohde ole aika selvä. lollontee posted:because it is more profitable to be friends, rather than trying to rule over someone. eg, it is china who is offering afghanistan trade deals, even though they are supposed to be be islam hating atheist out to exterminate all muslims. Why wasn't it more profitable to be friends with Ukraine?
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Jan 19, 2023 18:31
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DarkCrawler posted:Why wasn't it more profitable to be friends with Ukraine? because there was a civil war
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Jan 19, 2023 18:32
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lollontee posted:because there was a civil war Lol that just manifested out of nowhere with no input from the friendly Russians at all? Oh, and how profitable has this endeavor been to Russia as opposed to staying the gently caress out?
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Jan 19, 2023 18:34
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DarkCrawler posted:Lol that just manifested out of nowhere with no input from the friendly Russians at all? did i say that it did or give any reason to ever assume so? stop projecting m8
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Jan 19, 2023 18:35
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lollontee posted:did i say that it did or give any reason to ever assume so? stop projecting m8 Yes, you did, and have given plenty of reasons by claiming that it would be more profitable to stay as friends and that friendly relations are Russia's commanding priority. How does fomenting civil war fit into that?
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Jan 19, 2023 18:37
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why was there a civil war in ukraine again? anyone remember? just seems like nobody does remember what happened between euromaidan and russian intervention is all. like ya'll think the russians occupied crimea the second yanukovich was ousted?
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Jan 19, 2023 18:38
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lollontee posted:why was there a civil war in ukraine again? anyone remember? just seems like nobody does remember what happened between euromaidan and russian intervention is all. like ya'll think the russians occupied crimea the second yanukovich was ousted? Why don't you explain why there was a civil war in Ukraine, so you can be told why you're once again wrong as poo poo?
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Jan 19, 2023 18:43
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lollontee posted:should any country be required to tolerate hostile regimes then? because there certainly isn't any such international standard in operation, going by the actions of the leading world powers within the past half a century. indeed, if the past century isn't a series of invasions by western countries against hostile regimes, i don't really know what to call the past century. And do you know that when someone does a crime, it doesn't make it morally justifiable for you to do so too? So just because there's a precedent of war of aggression waged by an imperialist power, it doesn't mean that some other imperialist power doing a war of aggression is suddenly ok and we shouldn't condemn them. Strange how you always see the exact same arguments with these pro-imperialism folk. 'They are a threat to our security so we must pre-emptively invade and bomb their country to hell', 'They are bad people, did you know that the population there supports islamic extremisim/nazim?' etc. Spot the neo-con or a tankie would be a amusing game tho. quote:seriously though, comparing the interaction the western empire has had with afghanistan for the past 22 years, i loving challenge you to come up with anything that china could do by simply trading with afghanistan, that would result in a comparable amount of human suffering that was inflicted on afghanistan by the people we are supposed to be buddy buddy with now, for moral reasons
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Jan 19, 2023 18:48
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Glah posted:And do you know that when someone does a crime, it doesn't make it morally justifiable for you to do so too? So just because there's a precedent of war of aggression waged by an imperialist power, it doesn't mean that some other imperialist power doing a war of aggression is suddenly ok and we shouldn't condemn them. yeah, i know it means stay the gently caress out of a fight with no good guys Glah posted:Afganistan war created much suffering and should be condemned. But what does that have to do with the point I was making? I was just pointing out the simple fact that the Chinese trade policies are the exact same thing as western countries have been criticized of doing. my point was that it really, really loving isn't the exact same thing, numbnuts
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Jan 19, 2023 18:52
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Fated To Be Fat posted:It is possible but unlikely. Finland in NATO has way less political space to maneuver than Finland as just an EU country. We are absolutely going to sacrifice some of our sovereignty to acquire safety. US has a long history of strong arming their smaller "allies" to further their own goals and Finland most likely wont be an exception. This is true, but it's not that Finland had much more political space to maneuver before making the decision to join NATO. We were an EU country whose foreign policy was tied to an EU policy. When Brussel's and big EU countries decided to condemn Russia, it meant that Finland was right there with them but without having concrete security guarantees. And that painted a big target on our back for Russian motives for influencing, we basically became the weak link in Russian-EU politics. I was against NATO membership before the Russian invasion, but the geo-political reality was that we had tied ourselves politically into opposing Russian imperialism but lacked the safety of military alliance with countries whom we shared the foreign policy with. So seeking NATO membership became the rational choice, and it was nice seeing the whole political field realizing this. In a better world, NATO would have become irrelevant and EU would have created their own security apparatus separate from American projects. But unfortunately we don't live in one, so we had to settle for this option.
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Jan 19, 2023 18:59
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lollontee posted:my point was that it really, really loving isn't the exact same thing, numbnuts The end result is the same, west/China gets the resources it wants, assholes in charge of oppressive policies get money and power for selling away their natural resources and the workers and the population are left to suffer.
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Jan 19, 2023 19:07
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lollontee posted:indeed china is to be held to far higher moral standards, than these so-called western democracies, who are happily trading with people who believe that women ought to be held in bondage. while in the case of the west, such behavior is only to be expected as natural, it is indeed a considerable moral question in the case of china, as they are aiming to be a far more moral regime. seriously though, comparing the interaction the western empire has had with afghanistan for the past 22 years, i loving challenge you to come up with anything that china could do by simply trading with afghanistan, that would result in a comparable amount of human suffering that was inflicted on afghanistan by the people we are supposed to be buddy buddy with now, for moral reasons Also, not for moral reasons, for security from an imperialistic power in our own neighborhood. But since you know you can't argue against it from the standpoint of basic realpolitik you have to make it about moral principles so you can engage in your West bad kabuki theater performance. If everyone is evil, than the only thing that matters is how bad whatever evil power is to you from your own standpoint. I'd rather be any NATO country over Armenia, Belarus, annexed Ukrainian regions, Abkhazia or South Ossetia, from the utilitarian standpoint of the effects of whatever imperialistic actor against their vassal states. What is your argument when you aren't obsessing over morality?
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Jan 19, 2023 19:10
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Wtf does this drivel have to do with Finland? If you want to debate each other, why not just do it in the pm's? Or do you two seriously believe that anyone is interested in... that?
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Jan 19, 2023 19:17
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Finland's NATO membership is pretty topical to Finland, no?
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Jan 19, 2023 19:24
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DarkCrawler posted:Finland's NATO membership is pretty topical to Finland, no? Now how is China's relations with Taleban relevant to Finland's NATO membership? Try to stay on topic instead of vomiting endless posts just because both of you think that you have to 'win' an online debate. Hint: you are not changing either one's views by going through this same thing the 12th time.
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Jan 19, 2023 19:38
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