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It’s like one guy on reddit from what I saw. The platform has been out for months now and ftpm is enabled by default on the motherboards, I would expect more complaining if that was the case
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Jan 24, 2023 12:21
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What was the problem with fTPM anyway, was the cause ever publicly reported?
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Jan 24, 2023 15:42
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hobbesmaster posted:What was the problem with fTPM anyway, was the cause ever publicly reported? Mainly stutters/freezes when playing games or jittery audio (like when you have high DPC latency).If I remember correctly it was a memory verification delay. I had it and it sucked. Which is why I was a bit dismayed to hear that it might be a problem again. Might be some kinda of bios code regression only on some motherboards/manufacturers?
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Jan 24, 2023 17:06
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hobbesmaster posted:What was the problem with fTPM anyway, was the cause ever publicly reported? "extended memory transactions with SPI flash memory" The general problem is that the Platform Security Processor has go/no-go authority over the rest of the CPU. So a bug with it or the fTPM can easily cause stutter if that tells the main CPU no-go for a moment. Intel's Management Engine has the same potential drawback but can't be disabled like the PSP can, and Intel has been shipping more PCs with this stuff fully enabled for a long time. Any problems they had got ironed out long ago. AMD not having success in laptops and OEM systems until recently meant that the vast majority of people with AMD CPUs had the TPM turned off. e: Stanley Pain posted:I had it and it sucked. Which is why I was a bit dismayed to hear that it might be a problem again. Might be some kinda of bios code regression only on some motherboards/manufacturers? One-off reddit posts are pretty worthless. But really even if it were a problem, there is no problem with disabling the fTPM again if you're not using bitlocker full-disk encryption. Win11 puts TPM in its system requirements but doesn't actually use it all the time. Klyith fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Jan 24, 2023 |
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Jan 24, 2023 17:10
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Klyith posted:"extended memory transactions with SPI flash memory" It runs on the security processor, right? I would expect it to be able to just do it’s own thing separately. I guess that was the bug.
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Jan 24, 2023 17:26
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hobbesmaster posted:It runs on the security processor, right? I would expect it to be able to just do it’s own thing separately. Most consumer motherboards dont have their own physical tpm module, they use an emulated one within the processor.
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Jan 24, 2023 17:53
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hobbesmaster posted:It runs on the security processor, right? I would expect it to be able to just do it’s own thing separately. Yeah, but the PSP is tied to the memory controller and things at a deep level, because it runs its own functions on system memory. And it has ultimate authority. So maybe that's how AMD fixed it, changed a function that blocked the rest of the CPU to instead be non-blocking. The fTPM bug did get fixed fairly promptly once it was recognized, unlike the USB bug, so it may have been that simple. But this is extreme handwaving, I'm not an expert so beats the gently caress out of me what was really happening. I do know that this stuff is loving insane complicated. The first 20 minutes of this talk is a fairly comprehensible overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR8bPLj4nKE Yo dawg, I heard you like CPUs so I put a CPU in your CPU so we can watch everything your CPU does.
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Jan 24, 2023 17:57
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Most consumer motherboards dont have their own physical tpm module, they use an emulated one within the processor. My understanding was fTPM was using arm trustzone in the processor’s platform security module.
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Jan 24, 2023 18:03
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I never had any problems, but I went ahead and spent the $20 for my motherboard's TPM module just in case.
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Jan 24, 2023 18:17
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Cao Ni Ma posted:It’s like one guy on reddit from what I saw. The platform has been out for months now and ftpm is enabled by default on the motherboards, I would expect more complaining if that was the case I complained about it months before it got into the technews cycle, and everyone thought I was nuts. I guess I'll just get a TPM module, because JFC. Then again, why the gently caress don't mainboards ship with a built-in TPM chip, anyway?
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Jan 24, 2023 20:35
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The issue was that no one was enabling ftpm on their machine prior to win 11, in contrast everyone has ftpm enabled by default on every am5 system I would expect it to me more prevalent if it was a case of hosed up agesa
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Jan 24, 2023 21:53
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hobbesmaster posted:My understanding was fTPM was using arm trustzone in the processor’s platform security module. Yes. It's an on-die ARM CPU, running its own OS, which you're not allowed to touch. 
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Jan 24, 2023 21:59
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Is there a benefit to getting an actual TPM? I'd thought about getting one for my X570 but then it seemed to be running fine and I forgot. I honestly don't remember offhand if I have fTPM turned on or off. Not running Windows 11 on this machine, either.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:38
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CaptainSarcastic posted:Is there a benefit to getting an actual TPM? I'd thought about getting one for my X570 but then it seemed to be running fine and I forgot. I honestly don't remember offhand if I have fTPM turned on or off. Not running Windows 11 on this machine, either. This is like asking if there's any benefit to buying a 4090 when you're blind. No, if you don't use TPM then there's no benefit to buying a dedicated TPM module. Windows 11 doesn't actually use TPM for anything that Win10 didn't at present. In the home user context it uses TPM for Bitlocker full-disk and Windows Hello, that's all (currently). You can even turn on the fTPM to install 11 and then turn it off again after.
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Jan 25, 2023 01:55
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Yeah... I mean, if you don't care about the features the TPM offers then you can just use Rufus to install Win11 on whatever you want. I can't think of any reason it would be less secure than installing 10 on the same machine (at least unless/until MS starts blocking updates on unsupported hardware). I have it running on a Surface Pro 2 with a Haswell chip inside and it works fine as far as I can tell.
Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 02:03
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Klyith posted:This is like asking if there's any benefit to buying a 4090 when you're blind. No, if you don't use TPM then there's no benefit to buying a dedicated TPM module. I do like Windows Hello on my Windows 11 laptop... Too bad I think there are only like 2 external webcams which will work for it, or at least the last time I looked.
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Jan 25, 2023 04:51
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Klyith posted:This is like asking if there's any benefit to buying a 4090 when you're blind. No, if you don't use TPM then there's no benefit to buying a dedicated TPM module.
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Jan 25, 2023 09:32
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I thought it was a hard requirement to have some kind of a TPM implementation for Windows 11, unless you edit and repack the installation media? Yes, it's a hard requirement in the 11 installer. But you can turn off TPM after that with zero ill effects if you aren't using bitlocker full-disk encryption or windows hello. Or a video game made by Riot. CaptainSarcastic posted:I do like Windows Hello on my Windows 11 laptop... You can use Hello without a TPM, but it's terrible security because there's no protection from brute force attacks. OTOH with no full-disk encryption it's questionable how much benefit you get from having strong login security and zero data security.
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Jan 25, 2023 16:31
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FDE also only works if the system is turned off ie. the key isn't kept in memory (S3 STR) or is saved in plaintext somewhere on the disk (S3 STD), or some hybrid state.
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Jan 25, 2023 17:20
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Klyith posted:Yes, it's a hard requirement in the 11 installer. But you can turn off TPM after that with zero ill effects if you aren't using bitlocker full-disk encryption or windows hello. Or a video game made by Riot.
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Jan 25, 2023 17:55
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Is the fTPM issue only with windows 11 or can it happen with windows 10? I’m running a 7700X on a MSI B650 board with no issues on windows 10.
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Jan 26, 2023 01:58
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It should if the problem existed and you had fTPM on, which is on by default in AM5 motherboard.
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Jan 26, 2023 02:18
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B-Mac posted:Is the fTPM issue only with windows 11 or can it happen with windows 10? The AMD fTPM bug happens on any OS -- it's probably the internal micro-OS of the security chip that's the source. If you have a B650 you don't have to worry because there is no fTPM bug on AM5. There's just one guy on reddit complaining about something, and Combat Pretzel has decided that must be the harbinger of doom. When it's probably a random idiot with PEBKAC.
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Jan 26, 2023 02:22
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Does x570 not have any thunderbolt support? I bought a tb3 enclosure for some spare nvme drives I have mainly to work with my macs which work fine. But plugging it into my pc I just get a vague message about compatibility. I thought it might just work in a slower mode and not do nothing?
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Jan 27, 2023 15:06
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track day bro! posted:Does x570 not have any thunderbolt support? I bought a tb3 enclosure for some spare nvme drives I have mainly to work with my macs which work fine. But plugging it into my pc I just get a vague message about compatibility. A thunderbolt enclosure for nvme drives is using the PCIe-over-USB-cable ability of Thunderbolt. So if you don't have thunderbolt, you don't have PCIe. And no, X570 doesn't have thunderbolt support at the chipset level. Neither does X670/B650. You can find it on a limited number of motherboards OOTB, and I believe many Asus boards have a header which you can buy an add-in card to make work. AFAIK Thunderbolt is still pretty annoying to deal with for AMD platforms, because they have to buy extra controller chips. The good news is that Intel is *finally* allowing non-Intel TB controllers to be certified, so maybe the next AMD chipset chip will have a Thunderbolt 4 controller built in.
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Jan 27, 2023 15:48
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Klyith posted:The AMD fTPM bug happens on any OS -- it's probably the internal micro-OS of the security chip that's the source. I had to lookup what PEBKAC was and you got a hearty chuckle out of me.
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Jan 27, 2023 16:21
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Babby's first CPU question here. I just built my first PC in like 15 years today after only playing on laptops and not really doing any overclocking ever. I enabled DOPC in the BIOS on my modest 5600X during setup, and I notice my clock speed is fluctuating like crazy. Just sitting on desktop transfering files and occasionally downloading/installing poo poo so far. Is this something I should care about/fix or just natural for overclocked CPUs?
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Jan 28, 2023 23:16
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Insurrectionist posted:Babby's first CPU question here. I just built my first PC in like 15 years today after only playing on laptops and not really doing any overclocking ever. I enabled DOPC in the BIOS on my modest 5600X during setup, and I notice my clock speed is fluctuating like crazy. Just sitting on desktop transfering files and occasionally downloading/installing poo poo so far. Is this something I should care about/fix or just natural for overclocked CPUs?
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Jan 28, 2023 23:31
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it's pretty normal. if the fluctuations are too extreme for your liking, you can go to the windows power plan and bump up the minimum cpu usage setting just a little bit to see if it suits you better generally, you should go with the "balanced" power plan on ryzen
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Jan 28, 2023 23:31
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Indiana_Krom posted:Modern CPUs will boost their clock speeds up and down faster than you can see and is totally normal. The only thing that doesn't look quite right in your graph is that it isn't clocking down as far as it should, at idle on the desktop with normal background stuff going on it should be dropping down to like 1 GHz or less. Alright, cool. I've been watching it intermittently and it's never dropped below 3.6GHz so if it's supposed to drop when idle then IDK why it isn't. I just used the default overclocking profile in the BIOS and didn't think beyond that but I dunno if plan settings can change that. The load has never spiked beyond 25% that I've seen, or past like...8% or something for any longer period. kliras posted:it's pretty normal. if the fluctuations are too extreme for your liking, you can go to the windows power plan and bump up the minimum cpu usage setting just a little bit to see if it suits you better Well I don't really notice it so if it doesn't matter I'll just leave it. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't gonna cause any issues.
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Jan 28, 2023 23:57
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Indiana_Krom posted:Modern CPUs will boost their clock speeds up and down faster than you can see and is totally normal. The only thing that doesn't look quite right in your graph is that it isn't clocking down as far as it should, at idle on the desktop with normal background stuff going on it should be dropping down to like 1 GHz or less. You can't compare that across apps. The reported clock speed by many apps is a very naive "current clockspeed", to which the CPU reports the max speed of the current fastest core. That result will never drop below 2.2ghz, which is actually the minimum operating frequency of zen 2 & 3 (dunno about 4). Below 2.2ghz you get various halt/sleep/park states where the clock is not running. code:Insurrectionist posted:I enabled DOPC in the BIOS on my modest 5600X during setup, and I notice my clock speed is fluctuating like crazy. Just sitting on desktop transfering files and occasionally downloading/installing poo poo so far. Is this something I should care about/fix or just natural for overclocked CPUs? DOCP is not actually overclocking the CPU, it's the equivalent of XMP. So turning that on is running the memory at full speed, but generally should not OC the processor. Anyways as others said, modern CPUs are just going to boost to max speed for the most trivial thing, including updating the chart on your CPU monitoring app. Think of it as a very excitable puppy.
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Jan 29, 2023 00:00
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Klyith posted:You can't compare that across apps. Ah, I didn't know what the minimum frequency on Ryzen is, my only experience is my intel cpu that idles at 800 MHz.
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Jan 29, 2023 00:05
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DOCP is an Asus feature that only overclocks the memory, as far as I'm aware (basically, their implementation of intel's XMP on AMD). It shouldn't affect CPU clock speeds, and everything you're saying sounds normal. The 5600X's base clock is 3.7GHz, meaning it won't go lower than that in normal operation. There are apps like HWInfo or Ryzen Master that will report lower values using "effective clock speeds," but that's not really the same thing. I think Indian Krom's 800 MHz idle has to be that kind of "effective clock speed" and not a real clock speed, considering no Intel CPU has a base clock that goes that low.
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Jan 29, 2023 01:21
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The base clock on intel cpus is just the guaranteed clock speed it will run at within its official TDP spec, so if a CPU says it is 65w or 95w, the base clock is the minimum guaranteed clock speed that it will operate at while constrained to 65w or 95w. Speedstep has been idling down to 800 MHz since the days of core 2s. AMD is almost certainly doing something similar (and also straight up shutting down entire cores).
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Jan 29, 2023 01:42
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Interesting, I didn't realize that. And looking into matters more, for Zen 3, the clock speed will only drop below the base clock to the minimum Klyith mentioned (2.2 GHz) if you're on a lower power plan. I've never seen my 5600X consistently drop below 3600 MHz when on the balanced power plan (3675 MHz on performance/game mode, which seems like a pointless difference).
Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 01:50
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It is the same thing you can see that 3080 Ti doing in my attachment on the desktop, as soon as I launch a game it jumps to almost 2 GHz, but can bounce around anywhere from 210 MHz to 2 GHz depending on the load/power limits even though the base clock is 1365 MHz. I've literally never seen it run at the base clock, even at 50% power limit it still hovers in the 1600 MHz range. The main point is that at these super low idle speeds the voltage the GPU is operating at is only .768v and the CPU is similarly low voltage at 800 MHz. It is all for power savings at idle when there is literally no point in blasting away at whatever base clock it has, either they idle down to a really low state, or even power gate portions of the chip off entirely which is how even insanely high power modern desktop chips idle down to the single digit watts.
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Jan 29, 2023 02:12
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Didn't AMD beat Intel to the market on both down- and up-scaling CPU frequency to, respectively, save power and finish compute tasks faster - like they did with AMD64?
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Jan 29, 2023 02:33
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idle for CPU is a lot more "idle" than it is for GPU though having the slightest task running forces the CPU to upclock in a way that's not required for GPU for obvious reasons and in practice, my desktop (13600K w/ a 4090 ) idling still sucks up >100W as measured from the wallwart shrike82 fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 02:38
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Didn't AMD beat Intel to the market on both down- and up-scaling CPU frequency to, respectively, save power and finish compute tasks faster - like they did with AMD64? Yeah it was called AMD Cool-n-Quiet
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Jan 29, 2023 03:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:Yeah it was called AMD Cool-n-Quiet For when you didn’t want your tbred drawing a completely ludicrous 70W.
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Jan 29, 2023 03:46
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