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Wrong thread sorry euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 19:52
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euphronius posted:Lmao Moscow DOES consider itself a successor to Rome traditionally but I suspect this might have been misposted regardless.
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Jan 7, 2023 20:18
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Wrong thread obv
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Jan 7, 2023 20:18
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Molentik posted:This might not be the right place for this, but I have a question; Probably an AFR though I'm by no means an expert on the stuff in Portugal.
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Jan 7, 2023 20:37
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I've not enlarged the images, but I'm pretty sure those are frogs.
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Jan 8, 2023 03:12
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Telsa Cola posted:Probably an AFR though I'm by no means an expert on the stuff in Portugal. what is an afr
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Jan 8, 2023 03:55
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 Detail of a gold glass medallion with a portrait of a family, from Alexandria, 3rd–4th c. AD. Museo di Santa Giulia, Brescia.
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Jan 8, 2023 04:54
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Arglebargle III posted:
that's not a family, it's the same person with three different outfits and hairdos
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Jan 8, 2023 05:12
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Wafflecopper posted:that's not a family, it's the same person with three different outfits and hairdos a more thorough rebuttal of Arianism does not exist
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Jan 8, 2023 05:42
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Wafflecopper posted:what is an afr Another loving rock Slag does get everywhere and it's entirely possible its modern or historic. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Jan 8, 2023 |
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Jan 8, 2023 08:25
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FreudianSlippers posted:I like the Discworld books where the main setting Ankh Morpork (fantasy Victorian London if it was also a renaissance Italian city state) is built on it self several times because of centuries of silt from the River Ankh building up so there's city on city on city (most of it filled with mud). This becomes a plot point several times when people use the former ground floor (now sub-basement) to get up to no good. Old underground cities comes up a lot in fiction. Judge Dredd has Old New York populated with subterranean vampires, Futurama got one populated with mutants and even Duckburg has an old Duckburg underground (mainly used by the Beagle Boys to hide in).
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Jan 8, 2023 12:20
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Telsa Cola posted:Another loving rock Yeah, in modern times that poo poo still just got dumped any old where.
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Jan 8, 2023 20:07
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Are there any first-hand accounts of Greek mercenary life besides Anabasis? I read a bunch of 30 Years War accounts by mercenaries for a paper and insights into their daily lives was really interesting, but I don't know if guys writing down the mundanities of their lives was a literally genre in Greek Antiquity
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Jan 8, 2023 20:21
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Thanks, good to know! I'm still telling the kids it was from a iron forge making swords for knights a long time ago 
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Jan 8, 2023 20:23
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Molentik posted:This might not be the right place for this, but I have a question; Those look like hematite concretions which can form some gnarly shapes. Also get mistaken for meteorites a lot.
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Jan 9, 2023 01:03
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Yes that makes sense! Thanks.
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Jan 9, 2023 11:55
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https://twitter.com/KristerVasshus/status/1615236531689607169 Looks like a new contender for the title of "Oldest Known Runic Insciption" has been found.
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Jan 19, 2023 09:23
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loving hate the powercreep from these DLCs
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Jan 19, 2023 16:05
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Drakhoran posted:https://twitter.com/KristerVasshus/status/1615236531689607169 Hell yeah.
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Jan 20, 2023 00:27
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This obviously supports the idea that the Runes are truly divine gifts from the All-Father and not just the Germanics trying to ape existing alphabets. I will dream on this for confirmation. Maybe look at a fire for a bit too long or rummage through some birdguts before making a definite statement.
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Jan 20, 2023 01:04
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FreudianSlippers posted:This obviously supports the idea that the Runes are truly divine gifts from the All-Father and not just the Germanics trying to ape existing alphabets. I mean, I know you're joking, but it did kinda cross my mind too -- but Norse peoples would have had contact with e.g. the Romans for at least several hundred years before that, and I'd imagine contacts (both direct and indirect) with Greeks, Phoenicians, and the wider Assyrian-using world for thousands before that. Frankly it's surprising that writing took that long to spread to northern Europe, given how a lot of its early utility was for merchants to keep track of their accounts, and how widespread trade was across Europe.
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Jan 20, 2023 21:20
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Lead out in cuffs posted:I mean, I know you're joking, but it did kinda cross my mind too -- but Norse peoples would have had contact with e.g. the Romans for at least several hundred years before that, and I'd imagine contacts (both direct and indirect) with Greeks, Phoenicians, and the wider Assyrian-using world for thousands before that. I wouldn't go that far, "several centuries" before a 2000-year-old Runenstein would be back when the entire Roman Empire still fit neatly into Italy. Though of course I can't categorically exclude possible trade connections influencing Northern and Eastern Europe. It would interest me if eventually enough sources of ancient rune script will be available for linguistic analysis, because I'd really like to see which alphabets influenced theirs. Still, there's a non-zero chance the runic script developed independently. The Sumerians and Egyptians both managed to create bafflingly different writing systems, despite being fairly geographically close to each other.
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Jan 20, 2023 22:09
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Could be a case where someone heard the general idea ("they inscribe special marks to record their words") and independently reinvented that. Isn't there a specific term for that vs. adopting alphabets?
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Jan 20, 2023 22:15
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Lead out in cuffs posted:I mean, I know you're joking, but it did kinda cross my mind too -- but Norse peoples would have had contact with e.g. the Romans for at least several hundred years before that, and I'd imagine contacts (both direct and indirect) with Greeks, Phoenicians, and the wider Assyrian-using world for thousands before that. Egypt and Sumeria at least (I don’t know too much about Shang Oracle Bone history) had the kind of relatively centralized/organized state structures that encourage the invention, adoption, and spread of writing and had good materials in papyrus/clay to do it. North Europe took a lot longer to get that kind of state structure going, and definitely didn’t have papyrus (though I don’t remember enough about clay tablet writing to say if Ye olde Germania had good soil for it).
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Jan 20, 2023 22:26
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It needn't be direct contact with Rome, we have Celtic inscriptions from central Europe from back when Rome still had Romulus living in it.
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Jan 20, 2023 22:27
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I mean, in terms of Cuneiform vs Hieroglyphs, I'd imagine that the different media had a lot to do with that. It's extremely difficult to capture Hieroglyphs in clay, and vice versa with Cuneiform and papyrus. It also goes really far back -- obviously we don't know how far with papyrus, beyond the oldest (2,900 BCE) but IIRC there are clay counter tokens dating to ~10,000 BCE. Edit: this is in reference to the idea of runic script having developed independently. It just seems vanishingly unlikely, given how much exposure northern European peoples would have had to other writing systems by the time there was any evidence of runic existing. Lead out in cuffs fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 22:30
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galagazombie posted:Egypt and Sumeria at least (I don’t know too much about Shang Oracle Bone history) had the kind of relatively centralized/organized state structures that encourage the invention, adoption, and spread of writing and had good materials in papyrus/clay to do it. North Europe took a lot longer to get that kind of state structure going, and definitely didn’t have papyrus (though I don’t remember enough about clay tablet writing to say if Ye olde Germania had good soil for it). Northern Europe has wood, lots of wood, shitloads of wood. Runes are generally shaped to be cut into wood where you can't easily go against the grain of the wood to make other shapes with simple cutting implements. This is also why any earlier forms of runic writing or simple record keeping is so very hard to find. It was almost always done on wood or bark, and that rots. The same problem exist with most ancient archaeology in Scandinavia. One never really finds ruins, one can't do like in the Levant and walk up to and/or dig up a stone age or bronze age settlement and find any inscriptions to decipher on tablets or temple walls. Those inscriptions, carvings and paintings are gone. Instead, what archaeologists has to make do with, is postholes and a load of ceremonial rock carvings.
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Jan 20, 2023 23:02
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The magical properties of the runes are a result of the All-Father's power but the symbols themselves are likely based or at least inspired on some Southron alphabet. Source: It was revealed to me in a dream
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Jan 21, 2023 00:24
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Nessus posted:Could be a case where someone heard the general idea ("they inscribe special marks to record their words") and independently reinvented that. Isn't there a specific term for that vs. adopting alphabets? That concept is called "Stimulus Diffusion." A relatively recent example is the invention of the Cherokee writing system in the 1820s. A Cherokee man saw writing being used by white Americans, and understood the concept (but not the details, he couldn't read English), and then came up with his own syllabic-based writing system that borrowed characters from the Latin alphabet (and elsewhere), but used them in entirely new ways. This is a pretty common theory for explaining the spread of writing in the ancient world as well. It's unlikely writing as a concept was independently invented more than a few times, but once you get over the conceptual obstacle of knowing that writing is something you can do, there's a ton of different ways you can apply that to your own language and circumstances that can be very different from other people doing the same thing. CrypticFox fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jan 21, 2023 |
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Jan 21, 2023 00:29
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The Germans invented magnetic levitation before writing but then traded it in when they realized they hadn't unlocked high temperature superconductors.
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Jan 21, 2023 01:52
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Libluini posted:I wouldn't go that far, "several centuries" before a 2000-year-old Runenstein would be back when the entire Roman Empire still fit neatly into Italy. Though of course I can't categorically exclude possible trade connections influencing Northern and Eastern Europe. The traditional date for the founding of Rome is April 21, 753 B.C. By that time the amber trade between the Baltic and the Med was already centuries old.
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Jan 21, 2023 07:15
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CrypticFox posted:That concept is called "Stimulus Diffusion." A relatively recent example is the invention of the Cherokee writing system in the 1820s. A Cherokee man saw writing being used by white Americans, and understood the concept (but not the details, he couldn't read English), and then came up with his own syllabic-based writing system that borrowed characters from the Latin alphabet (and elsewhere), but used them in entirely new ways. This is a pretty common theory for explaining the spread of writing in the ancient world as well. It's unlikely writing as a concept was independently invented more than a few times, but once you get over the conceptual obstacle of knowing that writing is something you can do, there's a ton of different ways you can apply that to your own language and circumstances that can be very different from other people doing the same thing. That was Sequoyah, and he was spectacularly successful. quote:After seeing its worth, the people of the Cherokee Nation rapidly began to use his syllabary and officially adopted it in 1825. It unified a forcibly divided nation with new ways of communication and a sense of independence. By the 1850s, their literacy rate reached almost 100%, surpassing that of surrounding European-American settlers.
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Jan 21, 2023 20:43
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Been said but even the Whig history of the Civilization games shows that a technology once discovered will spread like wildfire among those exposed to it, often deliberately because it's easier to sell things to people who understand what they're for.
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Jan 22, 2023 11:53
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On the other hand, we know of civilizations first adopting a writing system, then abandoning it later. So clearly, technology spread isn't a one-way street, sometimes a culture just decides to go backwards again.
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Jan 25, 2023 15:25
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Libluini posted:On the other hand, we know of civilizations first adopting a writing system, then abandoning it later. So clearly, technology spread isn't a one-way street, sometimes a culture just decides to go backwards again.
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Jan 25, 2023 16:02
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Bronze Age Collapse? (the Sea People stole all the letters)
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Jan 25, 2023 16:09
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The collapse of literacy in the Greek dark age is because literacy hadn’t been adopted by the wider “culture” but was the province of an elite expert caste, the bureaucrats who supported the palatial centers. Oops the flow of wealth that allows for palatial centers has now been disrupted by the onslaught of the rapacious and bad-smelling Sherden, Shelekesh, Peleset, etc, now who’s going to pay me to sit here stamping out Linear B all day. You notice there is no obvious popular literature in the pre-alphabetic Greek (unlike say, Sumerian). It’s pretty much all accounting. No wonder they got rid of it.
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Jan 25, 2023 16:16
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Seems like writing purely as an accounting technology is somewhat before or a potential precursor to what we think of as writing. Is there any information on how much of the Aztec codices were like that ?
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Jan 25, 2023 16:25
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Aztec writing was pretty wild. It's a shame there isn't more of it surviving.quote:Aztec was pictographic and ideographic proto-writing, augmented by phonetic rebuses. It also contained syllabic signs and logograms. There was no alphabet, but puns also contributed to recording sounds of the Aztec language. While some scholars have understood the system not to be considered a complete writing system, this is disputed by others.
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Jan 25, 2023 16:36
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Libluini posted:On the other hand, we know of civilizations first adopting a writing system, then abandoning it later. So clearly, technology spread isn't a one-way street, sometimes a culture just decides to go backwards again. I'd say that is pretty strong evidence that "backwards" is the wrong paradigm to use. From a purely historical perspective its bad because history is the study of writings, but from a more complete social science perspective, literacy is a tool that a society may or may not have use for. In particular, maintaining a literate society comes with several costs that may not be worth paying: it requires a substantial diversion of educational resources, and you need to produce and store written media. In particular for nomadic societies that last part, storage, is a pretty brutal cost that substantially shifts the cost-benefit analysis away from bothering with maintaining literacy.
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Jan 25, 2023 16:50
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