|
fizzy posted:This is Biden's statement about Nichols. Man, you really gotta love when the commander-in-chief of the largest, most violent military in the world says that violence is never acceptable.
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:17 |
|
|
Vahakyla posted:Nice victim blaming. It’s the fault of the NAACP that we got economical segregation. This is peak internet leftist and so lmao I don’t know what to say. Where exactly is this "victim blaming"? This is an incoherent accusation
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:19
|
|
|
Vahakyla posted:Nice victim blaming. It’s the fault of the NAACP that we got economical segregation. This is peak internet leftist and so lmao I don’t know what to say. That's, uh, certainly one way to interpret what I'm saying  Economic segregation is a consequence of structural forces, which the NAACP historically made a strategic decision to not address in order to better align with the hegemony of liberal capitalism. It isn't the NAACP's "fault", because a structural problem is by definition not the fault of any one social actor. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jan 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:26
|
|
|
I did not expect the responses to this to include "maybe we should end BLM" and "maybe the NAACP shouldn't have existed" but I can't say I'm super surprised either.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:36
|
|
|
STAC Goat posted:I did not expect the responses to this to include "maybe we should end BLM" and "maybe the NAACP shouldn't have existed" but I can't say I'm super surprised either. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with either of those, but I get where the sentiment is coming from. Sometimes you have to get rid of things that don't work to make room for things that do. The Police, for instance.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:43
|
|
|
The book you dumped in the thread also doesn't say anything about the NAACP after what the author refers to as a "sundering" period leading into the early 50s. It discusses the benefits of the NAACP's actions through Du Bois' involvement prior to his firing in 1948. So it doesn't even say what you've said it said.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:46
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:The book you dumped in the thread also doesn't say anything about the NAACP after what the author refers to as a "sundering" period leading into the early 50s. It discusses the benefits of the NAACP's actions through Du Bois' involvement prior to his firing in 1948. So it doesn't even say what you've said it said. Can you be more clear about the alleged false claim, such as quoting it? You are sufficiently vague here that it's impossible for a good faith interlocutor to just, check the book.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:52
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:I'm not saying I necessarily agree with either of those, but I get where the sentiment is coming from. Sometimes you have to get rid of things that don't work to make room for things that do. I think retroactively erasing the NAACP is a weird and sketchy bit of like fictional history or something. Like its been a long struggle and just assuming that you can replace one of the important parts of it with something better feels like an insult to the people who fought and died to get what they did. Similarly "end BLM because its been years since Rodney King and Michael Brown" feels like its missing the point entirely and going back to that way that some white liberals/leftists seem to thing a problem becomes a problem when they become aware of it. BLM is part of the long struggle and blaming the activists trying to fight for change for not fixing a problem that goes back to slavery feels like a very online thing to do to me. None of that is to say we can't always do better or fight for more things. But blaming the people who are fighting the cause?
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:52
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Half measures are bad when whole measures are necessary. Harold Fjord posted:And how do the dead feel? Harold Fjord posted:Igoring the argument and substituting your own "nothing" is old hat, but telling us to shutup because it's disrespectful to consider how this horrible murder could have been prevented is a new loving low What argument? If you proposed a solution for preventing racist murders from ever happening, or outlined a clear path going from "the NAACP disbands in 1919" to "racist murders never happen", then I missed it. Could you restate it a bit more clearly? Maybe using more than one sentence? Mechafunkzilla posted:That's, uh, certainly one way to interpret what I'm saying Let's be a little more specific here. Economic segregation as a means of racial segregation is a consequence of the failure of efforts to resolve black poverty and close the racial wealth gap. The NAACP has failed to successfully fully resolve these issues, but it's not like they haven't tried at all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:53
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The NAACP has failed to successfully fully resolve these issues, but it's not like they haven't tried at all. An organization actively interested in the economic side, instead of excluding leftists as described in the linked book, might have had more success on the economic side. At least, that's what I understand their arguments to be. I'm not making them, I'm just not dismissing them in favor of the idea that we must live in the best of all possible worlds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:57
|
|
|
Our capture and trajectory will only allow half measures, order must be preserved. Our immediate peace and material comforts rely on it, but ultimately the purpose is predictable and reliable extraction of profit. We now exist in service of the economy. Justice, sustainability, humanity, these are secondary goals. Through the processes which we supposedly wield power, what will the people can muster is diminished, co-opted, and defeated if it runs afoul of the status quo. And should we rightfully recognize significant change would mean material sacrifice and challenging our way of life, we comply, we accept, we give up. I can't even imagine real constructive change occurring when economic and political realities mean the masses would have to suffer and sacrifice en masse to have any leverage. This is the half measure. If no-measure and full-measure both mean unrest... to shatter the grip capital has on the nation globe and future, at the expense of peace and order... I say we should be willing to shoulder that burden.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:59
|
|
|
It's no longer safe to drink rainwater anywhere in the world so it might actually be too late for even that
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:00
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Let's be a little more specific here. Economic segregation as a means of racial segregation is a consequence of the failure of efforts to resolve black poverty and close the racial wealth gap. This is already a deeply collapsed framing, though. Are we really fighting for a world where there is just as much economic inequality and oppression, just with a more equitable racial distribution within each class? That would be more fair, I suppose, but not necessarily more just. My real critique isn't towards the NAACP specifically anyway, they're just one organization, their hearts are in the right place, whatever. It's the ideology they are entrenched in. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jan 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
It's probably worth noting for this discussion that the NAACP is not the sole organization that represents the interests of black people. So the hypothetical scenario where the NAACP is disbanded does not necessarily been abandoning the cause of racial equality. I believe that side of the discussion is saying that it should have been cast aside for a more radical approach.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:08
|
|
|
pencilhands posted:Ugh. After reading the various descriptions of this event I feel absolutely sick to my stomach. See also: Presumable presidential candidate Ron Desantis' platform of making it easier to implement the death penalty and what I presume to be the widespread support for it. This from the party of small government. Making it easier for the government to loving murder people. Who cares how many innocent people get caught in that web? Justice must be served. You know, like when Jesus advocated for state sanctioned murder in the Bible
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
So am I correct that Memphis is charging only those cops involved in the second beating of Nichols while doing nothing about the cops involved in the first beating of Nichols? Because, those guys in the first video really seemed to only not kill him because they were too incompetent and too out of shape to do it. Not for lack of intent.Fister Roboto posted:Man, you really gotta love when the commander-in-chief of the largest, most violent military in the world says that violence is never acceptable. What you do is base violence. An unacceptable detriment and degradation of humanity. What I do is noble defense. A necessary buttressing of humanity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 20:19
|
|
|
Gyges posted:So am I correct that Memphis is charging only those cops involved in the second beating of Nichols while doing nothing about the cops involved in the first beating of Nichols? Because, those guys in the first video really seemed to only not kill him because they were too incompetent and too out of shape to do it. Not for lack of intent. Seriously. Not just in terms of criminal charges, but public discourse; I haven't seen any news articles or broadcasts even mention the cop in the first video saying "I hope they stomp his rear end", screaming contradictory or impossible instructions, going full aggro when he was already cooperating, etc. It's always just "he escaped and ran away after an initial confrontation with police." The beating is being treated as exceptional as opposed to an extension of an approach to policing that's totally normalized. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jan 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 20:26
|
|
|
Gyges posted:So am I correct that Memphis is charging only those cops involved in the second beating of Nichols while doing nothing about the cops involved in the first beating of Nichols? Because, those guys in the first video really seemed to only not kill him because they were too incompetent and too out of shape to do it. Not for lack of intent. yeah the whole thing is really an indictment of the entire Memphis police department - afaik this was part of a special unit that was out there doing "aggressive enforcement" or whatever placebo phrase they might use to describe deliberate violence, you have other cops cheering them on over the radio, other cops, emts, etc showing up to the scene to watch this guy die, loving everyone is complicit. you cannot reform this. you cannot waive the bias training wand and make this poo poo go away and it loving blows because a lot of people are just going to see the horrible video and blame it on 5 rogue cops and pats on the back all around if/when they go to jail but not think about the entire command structure that created and enabled them
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:See also: Presumable presidential candidate Ron Desantis' platform of making it easier to implement the death penalty and what I presume to be the widespread support for it. This from the party of small government.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 20:39
|
|
|
idiotsavant posted:yeah the whole thing is really an indictment of the entire Memphis police department - afaik this was part of a special unit that was out there doing "aggressive enforcement" or whatever placebo phrase they might use to describe deliberate violence, you have other cops cheering them on over the radio, other cops, emts, etc showing up to the scene to watch this guy die, loving everyone is complicit. you cannot reform this. you cannot waive the bias training wand and make this poo poo go away yeah, and the same mayor condemning the video now was previously praising this special unit by name as helping the city get a handle on supposedly rampant crime. it's such a systemic issue it goes beyond the departments themselves to municipal politics in general
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 20:56
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:yeah, and the same mayor condemning the video now was previously praising this special unit by name as helping the city get a handle on supposedly rampant crime. it's such a systemic issue it goes beyond the departments themselves to municipal politics in general I think there's also a difference in reaction between this being done to a motorist during a pointless traffic stop, and the same thing (maybe not as severe) being done to Criminals(TM) who Will Steal Your poo poo and Cause Disorder. Based on those videos, I'm pretty loving sure that this ain't these cops' first rodeo, and I have to imagine someone knew exactly what was going on the whole time and didn't really care. As a species, we have always regarded cruelty towards people who break the rules as quite acceptable, and largely we still do, even though we shouldn't. Whether it's cops roughing up criminals, vigilantes, mafiosos, or even parents and teachers using corporal punishment on kids, violence and cruelty is seen as quite good if the recipients "deserve it" relative to the measure in which they receive it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:05
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:yeah, and the same mayor condemning the video now was previously praising this special unit by name as helping the city get a handle on supposedly rampant crime. it's such a systemic issue it goes beyond the departments themselves to municipal politics in general essentially the exact same thing happened with baltimore's gun trace unit. "we own this city" did a good job of showing that. used to be the crown jewel in the PD and was touted by the mayor, until- woops! the entire unit was just doing crime 24/7 clean ayers act fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jan 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:Steeped in middle-class respectability politics from its inception, it's an organization that has been purging leftists and aligning with liberal hegemony to undermine systemic change and class consciousness for a century at this point. The PDF is a book by a U of C poli sci professor about the history (and erasure) of black radical politics in the US. You know, I was going to make an offhanded snarky remark about how given the current state of things it might be a compromised organization, but thought better of it, but then it turns out it's been addressed already much more academically. It's great how "modern" talking points where being used back then, with the whole "economic anxiety" of white people being blamed when, no, it really just is racism. It's really mind boggling that America is allowing itself to be traumatized like this. Now if only they would release videos of the aftermath of school shootings. cgeq fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:14
|
|
|
clean ayers act posted:essentially the exact same thing happened with baltimore's gun crime unit. "we own this city" did a good job of showing that. used to be the crown jewel in the PD and was touted by the mayor, until- woops! the entire unit was just doing crime 24/7 Hey, the mafia figured it out long ago: you can discourage upstart criminals by being the biggest, most terrifying gang there is. And in theory you can then... just not do crimes, but using your power to do lots of crimes is far more tempting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:15
|
|
|
"End BLM" "The NAACP was a net negative for black people" "Lynching would make things better" Are all certainly responses to "police brutally murder unarmed black man at traffic stop" They certainly are responses.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:28
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:"Lynching would make things better" This one especially is just.... wow. "The solution to extrajudicial executions is... MORE extrajudicial executions!" And it goes to show exactly how this law enforcement culture comes to exist in the first place. "They did something bad? gently caress 'em, I guess they should die!" No one deserves what happened to Tyre, but I guarantee you if he'd actually committed a crime, people would be defending it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:33
|
|
|
PT6A posted:No one deserves what happened to Tyre, but I guarantee you if he'd actually committed a crime, people would be defending it. this uh, doesn't seem like an especially productive line of reasoning to pursue
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:46
|
|
|
I'm bemused at the suggestion that civil rights groups during an era where pretty much any anti government activity was branded and persecuted as communist would have succeeded if they'd just been more overtly leftist, as if there weren't overtly leftist African American groups getting murdered during the same period.
Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jan 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:49
|
|
|
PT6A posted:This one especially is just.... wow. "The solution to extrajudicial executions is... MORE extrajudicial executions!" When a legal system sanctions extrajudicial executions all the time, the space between judicial and extrajudicial exists only to protect the authority of the state (and by extension, the interests of capital), and no other reason.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 21:59
|
|
|
FLIPADELPHIA posted:When a legal system sanctions extrajudicial executions all the time, the space between judicial and extrajudicial exists only to protect the authority of the state (and by extension, the interests of capital), and no other reason. So do you want to just outright say you're for lynching black people in certain instances, or talk around it? I certainly think that police should be abolished and the officers who did this be in jail, but lets not dance around a really gross statement. Own it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:03
|
|
|
Blue Footed Booby posted:I'm bemused at the suggestion that civil rights groups during an era where pretty much any anti government activity was branded and persecuted as communist would have succeeded if they'd just been more overtly leftist, as if there weren't overtly leftist African American groups getting murdered during the same period. Like, if MLK had called for the overthrow of the US government we'd all be living in paradise? It also ignores that MLK's wing of the movement also was working towards economic justice and their anti-war stance. I do get the idea that if you're going to get shot, you might as well push forward all your ideas... but since nobody - Fred Hampton, MLK, and Malcom X - *wanted* to be martyrs, saying that they should have been bolder because they were gonna die anyways is a loving cheap shot. ( this is meant to add on to quoted post, not saying that quoted post said that "pushing for lynching to stop was a half measure." )
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:05
|
|
|
Blue Footed Booby posted:I'm bemused at the suggestion that civil rights groups during an era where pretty much any anti government activity was branded and persecuted as communist would have succeeded if they'd just been more overtly leftist, as if there weren't overtly leftist African American groups getting murdered during the same period. Like, if MLK had called for the overthrow of the US government we'd all be living in post-racism paradise? Completely bizarre statement considering Roy Wilkins and the NAACP were opposed to the Freedom Riders' campaign of direct action (until it became politically untenable) and particularly despised MLK's antiwar activism. The NAACP and SCLC had all kinds of friction.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:So do you want to just outright say you're for lynching black people in certain instances, or talk around it? I can see why you've been probated 80 times. Ignore list time. People who do this poo poo should be threadbanned by the way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
FLIPADELPHIA posted:I can see why you've been probated 80 times. Ignore list time. Do the poo poo where I hold you accountable for the disgusting poo poo you're saying? Case in point: James Garfield posted:I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that another lynching would not make this situation better FLIPADELPHIA posted:It definitely would because if anything, it would have a chance at changing an inhuman status quo. I agree supporting lynchings should be a threadban. Being rightfully angry about this kind of murder and wanting justice is one thing, whatever you're doing is something else.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:16
|
|
|
Cops aren't people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:35
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Cops aren't people. That’s right, they’re pigs! 
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:37
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Cops aren't people. Finally, a compromise position we can all agree on!
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:37
|
|
|
Has anyone seen any info on who the white cop is?
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:58
|
|
|
Memphis PD is shutting down the Scorpion Unit: https://www.cnn.com/webview/us/live-news/tyre-nichols-memphis-news-1-28-23/index.html In other news the Memphis PD has created a new unit to take it's place, the SNUFF UNIT
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 22:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:17 |
|
|
Blue Footed Booby posted:I'm bemused at the suggestion that civil rights groups during an era where pretty much any anti government activity was branded and persecuted as communist would have succeeded if they'd just been more overtly leftist, as if there weren't overtly leftist African American groups getting murdered during the same period. i have a personal rule when it comes to people who are lecturing on what types of black activism and what black-run activist groups need to go away because they have obviously failed or it's not their time anymore or whatever: i look at the track record of their personally endorsed replacement system as its getting lived, i see if its ever hit any kind of tipping point of sustained membership instead of burnout and rotating door, i ask what's it actually accomplished and would they have done any better with the same resources, is it 90% debate and tinkering on rules and policies and theory. if after this it looks like yet another case of accelerationist roundtable that details through their actions exactly why they get nowhere, i dont even give them the time of day puts years back on my life Charliegrs posted:Memphis PD is shutting down the Scorpion Unit: FOR THE RECORD i think its worth repeatedly highlighting that the SCORPION unit is 100% out of clearly fictional dystopia being written for the simulation it stands for Street Crimes Operation to Restore Peace In Our Neighborhoods
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 23:05
|
|
