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Adenoid Dan posted:A land "ruled by an empire" still had people indigenous to the area living in it, how is that an argument? But that's not quite how people (including "people indigenous to the area" but also the people seeking a national autonomy in an area they [obviously mistakenly] thought they were indigenous to) saw things back in the 19th century. The empire owns the land, the question of who gets to settle there and what rights they have is decided primarily vis-a-vis the empire. The idea that settling in this land denies the national autonomy of the local population is backporting 20th (and 21st, I guess) nationalistic takes. VitalSigns posted:Comparing governments to private landlords and indigenous people and ethnic groups to tenants seems...fraught, it's a bad analogy that is gonna lead you to some bad places Xander77 fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 19:31
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There's nothing nationalistic about "you shouldn't displace people from where they're living against their will."
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Jan 30, 2023 19:35
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The idea that because people didn't live in a modern European nation state they don't have rights to the land they live on is just terra nullius.
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Jan 30, 2023 19:39
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Xander77 posted:
Settling isn't synonymous with Zionism. Jewish people settled in New York, that wasn't Zionism was it. Zionism is a political project of setting up a mostly homogeneous nation-state controlled by one dominant ethnic group, much like other nationalistic projects. Kinda hard to do that in someone else's land without denying their autonomy because indigenous people don't typically willingly agree to that sort of thing. So I don't really see how that's not a problem unless these 19th-century good Zionists were planning to do it somewhere that people didn't already live. Xander77 posted:If your nation is a "home" that you own, then you kinda need to extend the metaphor when discussing other forms of national or ethnic homes (or proto-nations or just places where "people indigenous to the area" live) that are not nation states. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 19:44
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Civilized Fishbot posted:
And when the ideal ran up against a country that already had millions of people living there well.
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Jan 30, 2023 20:00
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Xander77 posted:There's the vast distance between Israeli leftist "1967 should have ended with the Palestinians either receiving an Israeli citizenship or an independent state of some sort" stance and "Israel is colonialist project that shouldn't have ever existed, though I'm very carefully not saying Israel doesn't have right to exist, which is beside the point anyway". I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but setting 1967 as a turning point means accepting the Jewish seizure of control over Palestine (including the ethnic cleansing efforts remembered today as the Nakba) as beyond criticism. In this context, talk about a "right to exist" is just a distraction. Did the Jews of Palestine have a "right" to start a revolt and capture complete control over the area by force, while driving out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by threats and violence and then erecting obstacles to ensure that those refugees could never return? Just like Madkal, you're using rhetoric to distract from what actually happened, drawing focus to canned catchphrases like "right to exist" to avoid talking about the realities of war and ethnic cleansing. Madkal posted:The linking of Zionism to being actually anti semitism is interesting. The idea that it would be better for Jews to stay in places where pogroms and anti semitism were prelevent because trying to escape might be giving the anti semites what they wanted seems like a bit of a privilege position. It's true that the Nazis were first interested in expulsion but we know how quickly that changed. The problem with this line of thinking is that it's pure, undiluted fantasy. Palestine was not beyond the reach of foreign powers that were hostile to Jews, and it's not as if its actual inhabitants were any friendlier to Jews than Europeans were. Moving to the chunk of land that was referred to as "Palestine" did not, by itself, solve any of those problems. Some of the individual migrants may not have realized that, but the Zionist leaders on the ground in Palestine understood full well that the creation of the Jewish state meant obtaining political and military dominance over at least part of Palestine. There were various views within the Zionist movement on how exactly this might have been accomplished and what it would have looked like in practice, but I think a considerable amount of it was little more than wishful thinking.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:15
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Main Paineframe posted:There were various views within the Zionist movement on how exactly this might have been accomplished and what it would have looked like in practice, but I think a considerable amount of it was little more than wishful thinking. yeah israel today looks more like jabonitsky and begin's vision than rabin's, which i think was probably an inevitable course for any apartheid ethnostate
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Jan 30, 2023 21:35
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I don't have much to add but I just wanted to say that as a non-zionist Israeli I'm enjoying this discussion. It's rare that these kinds of discussion don't slide too much into vitriol. As for the whole "good 19th century zionists" - it's a bit moot I think because as people said, I think people on the ground quickly realised the situation. It feels pointless to judge a bunch of people theorising from Switzerland one way or anything. I do believe many of the people on the ground thought there will be a diplomatic solution though, and I don't blame anyone from running away from Europe.
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Jan 30, 2023 22:03
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Adenoid Dan posted:The idea that because people didn't live in a modern European nation state they don't have rights to the land they live on is just terra nullius. VitalSigns posted:Nobody said a nation is like a house that you own, the idea that people don't have human rights because an empire "owns" their land is abhorrent Weird takes. Let's try this from a different angle. Say Internet Explorer posted:There's nothing nationalistic about "you shouldn't displace people from where they're living against their will." Anyway, we already established that minorities can't exist in a nation where the majority is of a different ethnicity (unless the minority is Jewish). Main Paineframe posted:I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but setting 1967 as a turning point means accepting the Jewish seizure of control over Palestine (including the ethnic cleansing efforts remembered today as the Nakba) as beyond criticism. quote:Did the Jews of Palestine have a "right" to start a revolt quote:In this context, talk about a "right to exist" is just a distraction. Weird how narratives evolve. Над арабской мирной хатой гордо реет жид пархатый. Decades old pseudo-marxist takes dusted off and resurrected. The Jews came into Palestine planning to displace the locals. "Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea" isn't about displacing the locals at all. Arab countries came to the aid of the Palestinian people rather than on a campaign of conquest or genocide. "Throw the Jews into the sea" is a lie, the Arabs are much less murderous than that. "We're willing to coexist with the locals and have detailed plans for that" is a lie, the Jews are much more murderous than that. There was no need for Jewish state, European Jews got on fine without one. The independence war was started by the Jews who were unwilling to let the Palestinians have any portion of ... The weird part is that
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Jan 30, 2023 22:20
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Pure gibberish. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 30, 2023 22:27
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Tell us more about the murderous Arabs
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Jan 30, 2023 22:35
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This is just run of the mill genocide denial. Edit: fwiw yes one colonial power selling land occupied by an Indigenous people to another colonial power is a violation of their rights, and has happened many times. Adenoid Dan fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 22:39
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100% and it's gross.
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Jan 30, 2023 22:40
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I don't think peppering your posts with clever little jabs about how human rights are anti-semitic is having the effect you think it is. "Ethnic cleansing is bad" is not some secret code for "the Jews will not replace us," it's a fairly inoffensive opinion.
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Jan 30, 2023 22:41
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I don't think peppering your posts with clever little jabs about how human rights are anti-semitic is having the effect you think it is. "Ethnic cleansing is bad" is not some secret code for "the Jews will not replace us," it's a fairly inoffensive opinion.
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Jan 30, 2023 23:16
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Who are you arguing against here? People were very specific when talking about random Jewish people immigrating to Palestine versus the people actually leading the project and doing the work. It's very telling that you're struggling to make your position more palatable, because all you can express is poor analogies, innuendo, and sarcasm. Your logic and discussion is almost impossible to follow. It's all over the place. I don't know if you've figured it out yet or not, but clutching pearls and calling everything anti-Semitism is working less and less these days. You might want to up your game.
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Jan 30, 2023 23:24
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Xander77 posted:Right. When a bunch of Jews immigrate to a nation they intend to make their homeland, they're obviously planning a great displacement of the native population. Nothing weird about that. I don't understand this, what does 'nation' mean here
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Jan 30, 2023 23:25
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Xander77 posted:Yeah... the few thousand Zionists were def thinking "we're going to kick I mean, don't we know from the correspondence between the first wave of Zionist settlers that buying up the land, displacing as many of the locals as possible, and creating an ethno-state was pretty much exactly the goal? I doubt they expected it would come to a head as soon as 50 years later, but that was seen as the most desirable outcome. I'm certainly no expert so I welcome correction if I'm wrong but even prominent Israeli nationalist historians will write that that was the case.
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Jan 30, 2023 23:27
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:I mean, don't we know from the correspondence between the first wave of Zionist settlers that buying up the land, displacing as many of the locals as possible, and creating an ethno-state was pretty much exactly the goal? I doubt they expected it would come to a head as soon as 50 years later, but that was seen as the most desirable outcome. I wish you the best of luck with an answer. We're still at "denying that the Nakba was a thing" levels of discourse. A thing that the UN recognizes and created a day of remembrance for. Meanwhile, in Israel? The government tried proposing jailing people over it, but instead the government has a law to just pull funding to anyone commemorating it. Maybe one day.
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Jan 30, 2023 23:43
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Palestinians used to do wars and stuff but now a rocket or a mosque shooting gets headlines. Is the conflict effectively over? Will there be any interesting developments in the short term? Zionists want Jerusalem to be the capital, when does that happen?
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Jan 31, 2023 00:06
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Preen Dog posted:Zionists want Jerusalem to be the capital, when does that happen? i have bad news
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Jan 31, 2023 00:08
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Preen Dog posted:Is the conflict effectively over? Will there be any interesting developments in the short term? there's a way to view this in a fukuyama sense that israel has basically won and achieved most all its objectives. i can't envision a third intefada, especially in the west bank outside gaza. there's not even a threat from outside neighbors anymore now that israel has normalized relations with egyptian and gulf dictators. the only possibility for change is the complete reversal of US policy toward the region, which gives away the amount of fanfic i'm relying upon
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Jan 31, 2023 00:31
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At some point, some one established the idea of creating an ethnostate in the levant for jews; I don't really see what difference it makes at what point it started from ~50-100 years ago, and that seems to be the current dominant political premise as to what Israel is supposed to be now, and as part of that they seem intent on steadily grinding down what's left of Palestine until there's nothing left. Maybe Palestine isn't fully innocent, but Israel holds all the cards right now in their current dynamic, so basically the ball's in Israel's court if they ever want to end the conflict some way other than slow extermination. But it seems like Israel's internal politics have been a trash fire of assholes and literal criminals for a while, so it's unlikely it'll get any better.
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Jan 31, 2023 00:33
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PittTheElder posted:I mean, don't we know from the correspondence between the first wave of Zionist settlers that buying up the land, displacing as many of the locals as possible, and creating an ethno-state was pretty much exactly the goal? I doubt they expected it would come to a head as soon as 50 years later, but that was seen as the most desirable outcome. I think it comes down to the view of property as a whole, which tends to favour the rich and powerful. If you're looking for a house to live in, and there's one for sale, but it has long-term tenants who have lived there their whole lives -- maybe generations -- you owe no legal obligation to allow them to stay, in most places. Is that a violation of human rights? Well, honestly -- yes, but it's not generally recognized as such. It's just that but on an incredibly large scale, to a specific end.
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Jan 31, 2023 01:05
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I think the rot didn't really set in until the mandate era. Before World War 1 I have the impression that Zionists purchasing land in Palestine were de facto submitting to Ottoman sovereignty, in the same sense that an American buying a house in Canada doesn't make it American territory. But after World War 1, your landlord may have found himself in Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan, and would theoretically require a passport to visit his lands and be paying taxes to a foreign power, so he would have greater incentive to sell out. Even so, Jewish ownership of Palestinian land in 1948 came to about six percent of the total. As I understand it, even if the original architects of Zionism were big fans of kibbutzes, most newly arrived Jews preferred to settle in cities. And it was the policy of Britain between 1921 and 1939 to stuff Palestine full of as many Jews as the economy could support, until they decided that all of those leaders of the Arab Revolt that they just finished hanging actually had a point. The original purpose of the mandate system was to prepare the recently freed Ottoman colonies to govern themselves independently, as happened notably in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan, all the nations bordering the original Palestinian mandate. Jordan was especially galling, because it had a lower GDP, lower GDP per capita, less developed social institutions, etc., but it was given self-rule as early as 1923, but when Palestine asked its colonial overlords how much development would suffice to give them independence, they were told "If we gave you independence you would use it to cut off Jewish immigration, so you can't have it." (By way of background, a sovereign nation has plenary authority to admit or deny any foreign national as it sees fit). And so right up until Britain cut and ran in 1948 Palestine was governed purely as a crown colony. tl;dr It's all Britain's fault.
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Jan 31, 2023 01:51
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Xander77 posted:Let's try this from a different angle. Say If you're going to make America comparisons, why not the Native Americans, whose lands were arbitrarily divided into political entities like "Texas" and "Oklahoma" by foreign settlers who'd declared the natives' land to be under their control? Xander77 posted:It's really not. Circling back to the point we started with, the only reason the term "Nakba" means more than the ethnic cleansing of Middle Eastern Jews or the Eastern European Germans is that it was used in propaganda and as a pretext to attack Israel for  "Means more"? I think that rather bizarre phrasing really cuts to the heart of this whole disagreement. I'm not trying to weigh things against each other. I'm saying that atrocities are bad. It was bad when the Germans attacked and dispossessed Jews due to nationalistic racism. It was also bad when the Zionist Jews attacked and dispossessed Palestinians due to nationalistic racism. It seems like you're suggesting that because Jews previously faced pogroms and ethnic cleansing in Europe, it was fine for them to carry out pogroms and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians. If you're saying that I can't denounce Jewish atrocities in 1948 without first denouncing German atrocities in 1933-1945, well, that's not nearly as big an obstacle as you think it is? I hope I don't seriously have to write a post explaining that I think that the Nazis were bad, but it kind of seems like that's what you're asking for? And if you're wondering why those are the only two parts of your post that I responded to, it's because drowning everything in sarcastic roundabout suggestions that we're all secret anti-Semites makes it extremely difficult to make any loving sense of what you're talking about. I can only reasonably respond to the parts where the tides of irony recede long enough for a comprehensible argument to poke above water.
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Jan 31, 2023 06:25
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Incidentally the reason Oklahoma has that weird panhandle in the first place is because after annexation Texas needed to give up its land north of the 36°30' parallel to become a slave state. But anyways while sovereignty is a complicated situation, generally you'd want the popular consent of the people being governed or are otherwise having their lives dictated.
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Jan 31, 2023 07:34
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Wait I thought that governments are like private landlords who have an absolute right to move their tenants (local populations) around however they like, so under that hosed-up framing the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries would be fine, it's just a landlord terminating a lease. I think it's becoming clear how bad the "landlord's permission" justification is for, well, anything.
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Jan 31, 2023 14:06
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Zionism is an nationalist idea. If you make that nationalism available only to a certain part of the native population, it is doomed to end up in flames every time. It is an ideology that is possible to justify morally in a vacuum where the territory comprising the nation is empty before its inception. If Israel was founded on an empty island or that six percent of land owned by Jews in Palestine at that time, there would have been little issue. It wasn't nor was it planned to so retroactive moral contemplation of Zionists who had different ideas to run the nation is pointless, they all would have ran to the wall of apartheid colonialism at one point or other.
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Jan 31, 2023 |
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Jan 31, 2023 15:11
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I liked the Yiddish Policeman's Union, a book set in an alternate history where a jewish nation state is founded in Alaska. It's a fun what if.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:03
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Just in terms of "what a crazy thing to have happened" it's a real shame the Jewish Autonomous Oblast didn't work out
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Jan 31, 2023 21:40
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Lord Lambeth posted:I liked the Yiddish Policeman's Union, a book set in an alternate history where a jewish nation state is founded in Alaska. It's a fun what if. I loved this book. Though the protagonist eats so many blintzes I was craving them for weeks after. jiffypop45 fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 13:31
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PittTheElder posted:Just in terms of "what a crazy thing to have happened" it's a real shame the Jewish Autonomous Oblast didn't work out The idea that any group would willingly move themselves to a place farther east and arguably more difficult to live in than where Stalin was exiling ethnic groups as punishment is kind of darkly humorous. The USSR also lost all desire to promote it because it mainly existed as a scheme to make sure the Japanese didn't easily move into the region and they became a moot point after '45. When Israel was founded there was kind of a resurgence by Stalin due to his suspicion of both Jews and Zionism but outside of forced settlement, which could have happened after the Doctor's Plot, no one really expected it to take off. I think stuff like the Uganda Scheme and the one where a Jewish state would have been carved out of Germany, would be interesting, The Uganda Scheme would have definitely not worked out at all considering the history of white settler colonialism in Africa and the history of Uganda. Even in the Yiddish Policeman's Union Evangelicals and the US government are still trying to bring about the Rapture through supporting Jewish extremists.
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Feb 1, 2023 15:55
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jiffypop45 posted:I loved this book. Though the protagonist eats so many blintzes I was craving them for weeks after. Amateur. I got into slivovitz because of it.
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Feb 1, 2023 23:28
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Xander77 posted:There's the vast distance between Israeli leftist "1967 should have ended with the Palestinians either receiving an Israeli citizenship or an independent state of some sort" stance and "Israel is colonialist project that shouldn't have ever existed, though I'm very carefully not saying Israel doesn't have right to exist, which is beside the point anyway". The Soviets did argue as far back as 1947-48 that ideally there should be a single state for Arabs and Jews in Palestine, but claimed this was impossible under the prevailing conditions, hence they advocated a two-state approach, arguing that Israel was forcibly denying Palestinians the right of self-determination and that Israel waged an aggressive war in 1967 to seize the lands of neighboring Arab states. They certainly considered Zionism a reactionary ideology and didn't think the establishment of Israel was an inevitable historical development, but as far as I know from 1947-48 onward they never questioned the legitimacy of a Jewish state (and, from what I recall, even argued with PLO representatives in the 70s and 80s that keeping Israeli territory within the UN Partition Plan of 1947 was probably no longer realistic and that a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza would have to take this into account.) Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Feb 3, 2023 |
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Feb 3, 2023 12:30
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Lord Lambeth posted:I liked the Yiddish Policeman's Union, a book set in an alternate history where a jewish nation state is founded in Alaska. It's a fun what if. how'd the indigenous folks fare in that one? better than they have under america I'd hope 🥲
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Feb 5, 2023 17:29
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precious
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Lazy_Liberal posted:how'd the indigenous folks fare in that one? better than they have under america I'd hope 🥲 The end takeaway was "indigenous people would sooner cover up a murder than let one of their own get in trouble". It's intended as a commentary on in group vs out group à la GSF1 but I'm not sure it really does enough with it to make it feel like it was given the nuance it should have given who was involved. jiffypop45 fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 21:23
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Lazy_Liberal posted:how'd the indigenous folks fare in that one? better than they have under america I'd hope 🥲 One of the main characters is Jewish/Tlingit. I'd have to reread the book, I remember most of the context given was focused on the city, not so much the world.
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Feb 9, 2023 17:22
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Xander77 posted:It's really not. Circling back to the point we started with, the only reason the term "Nakba" means more than the ethnic cleansing of Middle Eastern Jews or the Eastern European Germans is that it was used in propaganda and as a pretext to attack Israel for Those perfidious "Palestinians", controlling the public mind through the media, existing only as a pretext to attack Jews.
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Feb 10, 2023 14:48
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The galaxy brain take: the I/P issue is fake because there are only Khazars and Sea People so it’s nobody’s rightful land
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Feb 10, 2023 16:37
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