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Got ya. I won't go overboard (heh) on anchor ropes. So whats the reason for "boat length" of chain anyway?
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Jan 28, 2023 15:29
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The weight of the chain is what really holds your boat in place when you're anchored.
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Jan 28, 2023 15:37
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Also, the boat length is more of a really rough estimate of the absolute minimum, you can absolutely have more up to using entirely chain, although it's going to be a huge pain to lift a lot of chain without a good windlass, which I'm guessing you wouldn't have on a boat your size.
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Jan 28, 2023 15:40
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Yeah my rode is just all 3/8" chain but my boat weighs upwards of 20t
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Jan 28, 2023 15:57
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The traditional answer is that the anchor keeps the chain from moving and the chain is what really grabs the bottom, but I think this is more true for something like a ship. On a boat like we're talking about using a Danforth, the chain gives enough weight that the rope will be pulling it more horizontally even if it isn't touching the ground itself. A rope with no chain will pretty much point directly from the anchor to the boat with very little sag and will therefore have more upward pull trying to constantly dislodge it from the ground. A heavy chain will sag so more of the force goes sideways and digs the anchor in further. Also, whenever a wave comes by your boat needs to lift the whole chain before it tugs against the anchor so it also acts like a shock absorber keeping your anchor from getting yanked out.sharkytm posted:100' of rode is fine. Anyplace you want to stay is going to be shallow or you can drift. Just get a Danforth and enough chain. They work well enough in most bottom types and if you practice a few times, you can learn how to throw, set, and retrieve them. 
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Jan 28, 2023 16:26
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Makes sense. I'll keep that in mind when looking at anchor poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:03
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The grand total of times I've been on the water in the great lakes since I could read is once so I can't really give good advice on an anchor there. Lack of tides and currents, in my mind, would really negate the need for an anchor unless it's a really windy day, or you're trying to hold position for fireworks on the waterfront or something I'm stuck in the carolinas right now and was having a conversation with a guy and he was "the current really rips through there, almost two knots" and I'm used to SF bay where 4 knots is normal and you can see over six floating under the gg bridge My anchor is 150' and I've got two https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01KW6JJ08/ Those used to be like $40 was kind of surprised to see they're $80 Anchor requirements for a 20' power boat are way different than a 30'+ sailboat. It is really nice to have even three feet of chain at the end because that's the part that gets 95% of the wear, and will chafe against rocks and logs and whatever We're probably grossly overthinking your anchor situation, a 5# mushroom anchor is probably fine for 90% of all day excursions you'll do I bought a 2kg (5#) lewmar anchor (smallest they make, slightly bigger than your hand) as an experiment it was fine in the silty mud of SF as a "lunch hook" but I wouldn't sleep overnight on it on my boat https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000N9ZJ7M Hadlock fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jan 28, 2023 |
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Jan 28, 2023 18:26
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Hadlock posted:I'm stuck in the carolinas right now and was having a conversation with a guy and he was "the current really rips through there, almost two knots" and I'm used to SF bay where 4 knots is normal and you can see over six floating under the gg bridge Down here in my part of FL we have an 8' tidal range on an average day. A bunch of the marinas won't let you in unless it's slack tide or nearly.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:37
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Hadlock posted:The grand total of times I've been on the water in the great lakes since I could read is once so I can't really give good advice on an anchor there. Lack of tides and currents, in my mind, would really negate the need for an anchor unless it's a really windy day, or you're trying to hold position for fireworks on the waterfront or something If you're hanging out in the middle of the lake (no one really does this) or something absolutely you're right. People tend to congregate around beaches though and it gets tight enough that 100% you need an anchor, just the wind will be enough to drift you into someone else.
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Jan 28, 2023 19:37
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The flipside of this is at really crowded events like fireworks, you can't trust anyone else to anchor properly and you'd might as well just be ready to start the motor and move. Not much point in being the only boat not moving.
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Jan 28, 2023 19:46
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enki42 posted:If you're hanging out in the middle of the lake (no one really does this) or something absolutely you're right. People tend to congregate around beaches though and it gets tight enough that 100% you need an anchor, just the wind will be enough to drift you into someone else. We anchor up on a boat-only-accessible beach, and you really need 2 anchors, one big one for the bow and a mushroom or something for the stern to keep you from swinging. Cat Hatter posted:The flipside of this is at really crowded events like fireworks, you can't trust anyone else to anchor properly and you'd might as well just be ready to start the motor and move. Not much point in being the only boat not moving. Oh God yeah. An anchor is just another target for drunken idiots to run over and tangle up. We don't go out for those events, it's not worth it with how small our boat is.
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Jan 28, 2023 20:04
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drat, Anchor chat up in this all because of lil old me! Going out to the "middle" of the lake isn't quite what I was planning, probably ore like a few km off shore or something, and chilling out, reading a book, and/or listening to the radio. There is a waiting list for slips at the two city owned marinas here so I'd be launching and landing. So gently caress stuff like going out on the water for fireworks or some poo poo like that. Though I gotta admit this looks pretty fuckin sweet. https://www.portstoronto.com/portstoronto/media-room/news/north-america%E2%80%99s-floating-movie-theatre-returns.aspx
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Jan 29, 2023 05:16
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I can't deny that this tempted me: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/d/napa-1962-west-coast-pearson-triton/7583619090.html
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Jan 29, 2023 06:00
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wesleywillis posted:Though I gotta admit this looks pretty fuckin sweet. They cancelled that a while ago unfortunately 
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Jan 29, 2023 08:55
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wesleywillis posted:
We do something similar with a portable projector, a sail, and a bunch of dinghies. Watching Jaws in a tiny dinghy is fun!
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Jan 29, 2023 15:14
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Karma Comedian posted:We do something similar with a portable projector, a sail, and a bunch of dinghies. They have the dinghy thing here now too. Another thread brought up the subject of ethanol in gas. IIRC ethanol + outboard/marine engines = bad was a thing for at least a while. Is uhhhh that still a thing? I'm not worried about things like rubber hoses melting or whatever was happening to cars 20 odd years ago when they started putting ethanol in to gas and older cars were having issues with their older rubber lines, but anyone recall what the deal was with ethanol and marine engines in the recent past? Was it just reduced fuel economy? Were they running worse? I can't imagine that the engine manufacturers (mercury in my case) haven't figured out a way to deal with this yet but maybe they haven't. Is it one of those things that was true 10 years ago but isn't anymore but people swear its still true because it was at one point? wesleywillis fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 03:21
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Nobody knows how gasoline works, tripley so if you're also talking about ethanol. Ethanol is corrosive to some rubbers and plastics that aren't going to be found on a boat built since Bush was president. Unlike gasoline, ethanol will mix with water from the air and between the water and alcohol will corrode metals like your carburetor (if present) faster. Unless you have bigger problems, you probably won't have it absorb so much water that it drops out of solution and leaves you with corrosive alcohol/water and low octane gasoline* floating on top of it. Overall, it is better for a boat to use straight gasoline (E0) but E10 probably isn't really going to hurt anything on a modern boat. I use E10 on a Mercruiser from '96 and every year plan on running it on recreation gas with no alcohol in it so it can sit all winter, but then decide I can't be bothered to wrestle with fuel lines and just winterize it as-is. Note that fuel stabilizer treats an unrelated phenomenon where gasoline can start turning into varnish after about a month. Sta-bil is cheap and I put it in at every fill up because I never know if I'm really going to go through that whole tank by the end of the year. *Ethanol has a higher octane value than gasoline (E85 is like 105 octane or something) and is used to meet the number shown on the pump. Don't listen to some hillbilly telling you to mix it with water to extract the pure gasoline off the top. Also don't buy premium because "its better" or has less ethanol in it. It has the same amount of ethanol, you will get the same mileage, and the same horsepower. Buy whatever gas your owners manual says. E0 is better but not worth paying extortionist prices for. Oh poo poo, this note turned back into the main rant.
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Jan 30, 2023 04:18
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wesleywillis posted:Dyneema rope seems to be a good product for an anchor line. Similar to how climbing has static and dynamic ropes, boating has lines you want to be stretchy and lines you don’t. Sheets and halyards and running rigging on sailboats want to be less stretchy. Dock lines and anchor rodes want to be stretchy so you’re not transferring all the load to the boat’s hardware, the line absorbs some. Dyneema is very not stretchy. Nylon is a much better choice. Polyester is also fine but preferably in a 3-strand or plaited line rather than double braid. 4:1 is sort of the minimum ratio of length to depth for rode, and that’s assuming all chain for proper catenary. If you’re doing a composite rode then 7:1 is best, 5:1 can be fine in good conditions and/or for short periods of time. Look at a chart of your area and see where you might want to anchor, both from a ‘this is a nice place to have lunch and swim’ standpoint and also a ‘if my poo poo breaks on the way back to the marina I may need to anchor here’ situation. ~20 feet of chain plus line to get you to 7:1 where you expect to want to anchor will probably be fine, you can always tie lines together for more length too, especially if you’re just hand hauling and not trying to run it through a windlass.
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Jan 30, 2023 06:24
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Hearing how lake people talk about anchoring vs. what I have to do in Puget Sound is just wild. (also the difference between small displacement motor boats and the sailboats I'm used to)
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Jan 30, 2023 06:26
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Dyneema also doesn't have very good abrasion resistance. Kenshin posted:Hearing how lake people talk about anchoring vs. what I have to do in Puget Sound is just wild. (also the difference between small displacement motor boats and the sailboats I'm used to) Seriously. Side note, do you have the parrots aboard? (I can't go in the bird crazies thread and read about people's birds escaping or dying every week anymore)
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Jan 30, 2023 07:11
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Karma Comedian posted:Side note, do you have the parrots aboard? (I can't go in the bird crazies thread and read about people's birds escaping or dying every week anymore)
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Jan 30, 2023 07:17
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Kenshin posted:Hearing how lake people talk about anchoring vs. what I have to do in Puget Sound is just wild. (also the difference between small displacement motor boats and the sailboats I'm used to) loving this. In boating news, mom feels bad about my dad leaving me a boat in dire need of maintenance and wants to sponsor some of the upcoming costs  (so I'm getting a new anchor winch, and chain  )
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Jan 30, 2023 07:26
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Kenshin posted:Hearing how lake people talk about anchoring vs. what I have to do in Puget Sound is just wild. (also the difference between small displacement motor boats and the sailboats I'm used to) What is wild about it? I'm new to this boat poo poo. I know the great lakes aren't oceans, but they're not the puddles that one finds throughout most of the rest of North America. Big Taint posted:Similar to how climbing has static and dynamic ropes, boating has lines you want to be stretchy and lines you don’t. Sheets and halyards and running rigging on sailboats want to be less stretchy. Dock lines and anchor rodes want to be stretchy so you’re not transferring all the load to the boat’s hardware, the line absorbs some. Knowledge here. I learned something and will make sure to remember this. Thanks fellow goon!!
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Jan 30, 2023 14:12
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Kenshin posted:Nope, rehomed them--the Conure like 5 years ago, the Amazon just before I moved onto the boat last May. I've still got the Senegal aboard, and i inherited my grandfathers Grey so she's here too. wesleywillis posted:What is wild about it? I'm new to this boat poo poo. I know the great lakes aren't oceans, but they're not the puddles that one finds throughout most of the rest of North America. In places with currents and tides your ground tackle is hugely important. People spend a bunch of time, money, thought, worry, and effort into effectively anchoring in a spot where the anchor will grab, the bottom will hold, and in such a way that the boat won't drag anchor and end up elsewhere. For us, hearing (for example - and no shade I'm sure the box anchor is great) "just toss this box in the water you don't even need chain" is a foreign concept.
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Jan 30, 2023 15:15
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Karma Comedian posted:For us, hearing (for example - and no shade I'm sure the box anchor is great) "just toss this box in the water you don't even need chain" is a foreign concept. Same. I worked on commercial boats in New England for over a decade, including a lot of anchor work. The only magic anchor I've seen is the fortress aluminum Danforths, just because they weigh a lot less than steel. We still use a ton of chain with them, and rarely used them commercially because they weren't durable enough. Recreationally, however, they're amazing. Plus they don't leave rust on your pulpit! For anchor line: 8-plait nylon is really the best, followed by 3-stand nylon. You want stretch and abrasion resistance, as well as the ability to splice it. Fire hose makes for great chafing gear.
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Jan 30, 2023 15:46
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My boat came with an aluminum fortress xf-11 as the primary and it's been great. Almost too hard to get it out of the mud here in SF.
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Jan 30, 2023 16:11
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Karma Comedian posted:In places with currents and tides your ground tackle is hugely important. People spend a bunch of time, money, thought, worry, and effort into effectively anchoring in a spot where the anchor will grab, the bottom will hold, and in such a way that the boat won't drag anchor and end up elsewhere. For us, hearing (for example - and no shade I'm sure the box anchor is great) "just toss this box in the water you don't even need chain" is a foreign concept. I did a four day sailing course on Lake Ontario last summer and the materials, final test, and on-the-lake work all had lots of stuff about anchors and anchor theory. Also, having anchored for a couple hours outside a popular local nude beach and watched countless incidents of sheer buffoonery from the rented yacht/motorboat crew there, I wish that sort of education was forced on everyone taking a boat out.
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Jan 30, 2023 16:29
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:I did a four day sailing course on Lake Ontario last summer and the materials, final test, and on-the-lake work all had lots of stuff about anchors and anchor theory. Also, having anchored for a couple hours outside a popular local nude beach and watched countless incidents of sheer buffoonery from the rented yacht/motorboat crew there, I wish that sort of education was forced on everyone taking a boat out. In California you now need a boater card to operate a motor boat (this includes a sailboat under power). BoatUS has a free online course so it only costs the $10 through the state for the card... but with BoatUS, they force you to spend 24 seconds on every slide (regardless of how short the context) and there are periodic quizzes so at least you have to retain something. Maybe some of the in-person courses are easier to sleep through.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:20
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Getting into ‘what anchor’ discussions is a classic way to melt down entire boating forums. I’ve never used one of those box anchors but for smaller boats they look effective in muddy/sandy bottoms. In SF Bay the bottom is mostly mud and danforths are the anchor du jour here. They are not as good on rockier bottoms and don’t like having their load direction changed, since they are relatively light for their surface area if the wind shifts 30 degrees you will bend it. Modern concave anchors are the best all around, they hold well on pretty much any bottom, set/reset easily, they just don’t stow quite as flat as a danforth. Manson makes one you can take apart to store but they are pricey. Pretty much anything else is as effective as tying a line to a cinderblock.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:26
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Let me go on the record for saying gently caress Boater Cards. They were designed to prevent tourist deaths on rental power boats, and to get the drat thing signed they explicitly exempted tourists from them. That sailboats are tangled up in this bureaucratic mess is an outrage. I've never seen a sailboat hassled by law enforcement though, so not worried about getting a "ticket" for not having one. The only way I'll ever get one is if the marinas start requiring them like they do with insurance.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:33
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Hadlock posted:Let me go on the record for saying gently caress Boater Cards. They were designed to prevent tourist deaths on rental power boats, and to get the drat thing signed they explicitly exempted tourists from them. That sailboats are tangled up in this bureaucratic mess is an outrage. I didn't know about the tourist exemption... fuckin top-shelf work there guys.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:04
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:I did a four day sailing course on Lake Ontario last summer and the materials, final test, and on-the-lake work all had lots of stuff about anchors and anchor theory. Also, having anchored for a couple hours outside a popular local nude beach and watched countless incidents of sheer buffoonery from the rented yacht/motorboat crew there, I wish that sort of education was forced on everyone taking a boat out. I've got my boat license. From one of those places that said "don't pass? Don't pay!!!" Probably got it at the sportsman show in Toronto. I plan on taking *some* kind of legit boating safety type course because I'd really like to try and not be "that guy". Re: anchor chat, Looks like I should get a few cinder blocks and some steel cable and troll some boat forums about my discovering that one weird trick that big anchor doesn't want you to know?
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Jan 30, 2023 18:27
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Big Taint posted:Getting into ‘what anchor’ discussions is a classic way to melt down entire boating forums. I’ve never used one of those box anchors but for smaller boats they look effective in muddy/sandy bottoms. In SF Bay the bottom is mostly mud and danforths are the anchor du jour here. They are not as good on rockier bottoms and don’t like having their load direction changed, since they are relatively light for their surface area if the wind shifts 30 degrees you will bend it. Modern concave anchors are the best all around, they hold well on pretty much any bottom, set/reset easily, they just don’t stow quite as flat as a danforth. Manson makes one you can take apart to store but they are pricey. I love my big dumb mantus anchor.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:28
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wesleywillis posted:I've got my boat license. From one of those places that said "don't pass? Don't pay!!!" Probably got it at the sportsman show in Toronto. I plan on taking *some* kind of legit boating safety type course because I'd really like to try and not be "that guy". I got my basic boating license through the Canadian Power and Sail Squadrons. Probably took five hours or so? Online modules with quizzes after each and then the PCOC exam right after. Then I did my small keelboat course through NauticEd, and my practical course through one of their affiliated schools in Port Credit. Honestly, even if you never want to sail, it's probably worth doing at least some sort of online or other learning if only to get better at navigation, right-of-way rules, lighting regs, tides/currents, etc. Also practicing man overboard drills on a sailboat is good fun.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:48
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Karma Comedian posted:I love my big dumb mantus anchor. Yep, I've got a 25kg Rocna on 150' of 3/8s chain and another 100' of rode. Likely gonna upgrade to ~250' of chain before we set off for more remote spots, though. I'd like to get a slightly larger anchor as well, but apparently this is the largest Rocna that fits on my current hardware.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:50
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:Also practicing man overboard drills on a sailboat is good fun. I definitely discovered how out of shape I was trying to haul my fat rear end over the transom of a little sailing dinghy. Being fat did help a bit when I had to right the boat during the capsize drills, I had a much easier time of that than my 98'ish pound female sailing buddy.
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Jan 30, 2023 19:33
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I have a 7.5 kg Bruce anchor (16 lbs or something?) for a bit over 4 metric tons of boat, and no chain, which is good because I don't have an anchor winch and I have to pull it up by hand. Most people in an international context I think would consider this to be comically undersized. It works great for me, though - it almost always sets on the first try and I can't recall it ever actually letting go. There's actually a bigger one in the bottom of the lazarette but I've never ever used it. The thing that lets me get away with this is the fact that I never anchor unmoored like people do everywhere else in the world; I drop a stern anchor and moor bow against shore. This avoids the entire discussion about changing direction of pull and jerks on the rode and anchor resetting and whatnot (the tension on the rode is more or less constant and more or less from the same direction), plus it almost guarantees that the bottom slopes upwards towards the boat, which makes the direction of pull easier for the anchor. It's basically cheating. I read an article about anchoring physics by the inventor of the Rocna anchor a couple of years back, and I found it to be pretty interesting - he basically argues that on small leisure craft the chain is providing almost none of the benefits it's usually credited with. If you have a given weight budget for anchor+chain, he says, you should put as much of it into the anchor as possible. He doesn't go as far as to claim the chain is entirely unnecessary, but says the main job of the chain is to prevent the bottom chafing at the rope part of the rode and to provide a little bit of dampening in very light weather. With the way I anchor though I don't have any use for either of those so a chain wouldn't really do anything for me at all. This way of doing things though is apparently quite rare outside of the Baltic Sea. One of the reasons I think people get into holy wars about anchors is what someone else mentioned above - different types are good for different types of bottoms, and the local conditions vary wildly. I've had a great time with the Bruce here in the Stockholm area where I sail, and it's quite common here in general, but I've seen a lot of people on the west coast absolutely hating Bruce anchors. I suspect that might be because it sucks at hard sandy bottoms, which they have and we don't. So, if your boat didn't come with an anchor, take a walk around the marina and look at what the other locals have; they might be onto something that works there. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 22:50
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Things get pretty different once you move up to my range--I'm at 42' and have an unloaded weight of 22,000lbs (so likely closer to 24,000 or so). In a calm anchorage with no wind and a slack tide, the weight of the chain pulls the boat to where the chain is more-or-less vertical, sitting on the bottom. In rougher weather and wind, I've got a large anchor bridle that provides additional shock-load protection, which protects my boat and helps tame the shock loads on the anchor. The weight of the chain itself though provides a lot of "spring" simply by hanging in an arch between the anchor and boat in all but the heaviest, craziest winds (which thankfully I've never experienced, we're talking sustained 40kn+)
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Jan 30, 2023 22:57
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Karma Comedian posted:In places with currents and tides your ground tackle is hugely important. People spend a bunch of time, money, thought, worry, and effort into effectively anchoring in a spot where the anchor will grab, the bottom will hold, and in such a way that the boat won't drag anchor and end up elsewhere. For us, hearing (for example - and no shade I'm sure the box anchor is great) "just toss this box in the water you don't even need chain" is a foreign concept. TheFluff posted:One of the reasons I think people get into holy wars about anchors is what someone else mentioned above - different types are good for different types of bottoms, and the local conditions vary wildly. I've had a great time with the Bruce here in the Stockholm area where I sail, and it's quite common here in general, but I've seen a lot of people on the west coast absolutely hating Bruce anchors. I suspect that might be because it sucks at hard sandy bottoms, which they have and we don't. So, if your boat didn't come with an anchor, take a walk around the marina and look at what the other locals have; they might be onto something that works there. *Allegedly Cat Hatter fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jan 31, 2023 |
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Jan 31, 2023 00:27
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https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/boa/d/newport-beach-1978-pacific-seacraft/7580841967.html Seems like a banging price on a very very solid boat that needs a lot of elbow grease? Whole boat is dirty as poo poo, the teak is sorta/kinda hosed but could potentially be rehabed, and it obviously needs a bottom scrub and paint. The engine looks like what I'd expect a 43 year old diesel to look? 
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Jan 31, 2023 02:12
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