|
Lib and let die posted:You might even be surprised to learn that there are plenty* of folks to the left of the Democrats that oppose sending billions of dollars of advanced weaponry anywhere overseas while here at home we can't even keep our own veterans out of homeless encampments or in the medical care facilities they need to be in, to say nothing of how the US fails to serve its civilian population. I mean those people might exist, but they're wrong and don't exist in enough numbers to matter. The only (barely) interesting thing is that said people, despite being to the left of the Democrats, manage to be wrong in the same direction and with essentially the same argument as conservative talk radio, on an issue where every elected Democrat and even a substantial number of Republicans are right.
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 02:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 03:21 |
|
|
James Garfield posted:I mean those people might exist, but they're wrong and don't exist in enough numbers to matter. The only (barely) interesting thing is that said people, despite being to the left of the Democrats, manage to be wrong in the same direction and with essentially the same argument as conservative talk radio, on an issue where every elected Democrat and even a substantial number of Republicans are right. By what metric are we establishing right vs wrong? Vibes?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 02:27
|
|
|
Hello, if we're going to discuss American aid to Ukraine here (it's definitely relevant to defense budget scheming), let's please try to keep it reasonably civil.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 02:35
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:I mean those people might exist, but they're wrong and don't exist in enough numbers to matter. The only (barely) interesting thing is that said people, despite being to the left of the Democrats, manage to be wrong in the same direction and with essentially the same argument as conservative talk radio, on an issue where every elected Democrat and even a substantial number of Republicans are right. It seems uncontroversial and self-evidently correct to say that American foreign policy is calculated to enrich the bourgeoisie through the sale of weapons and the application of power to force markets open or keep them open, and that if lives are saved by this behavior, it’s more or less by accident. That doesn’t mean it’s de facto wrong to give money to Ukraine, but it means that the United States is not a benevolent presence on the world stage and that Ukraine had better watch out for what will happen during the peace that follows, should they win. If people aren’t happy with that status quo and can imagine what good the US military budget could do in improving human life, they’re reasonable in thinking that. That’s pretty different from arguing that the US shouldn’t help Ukraine because it’s too expensive and foreigners don’t deserve help. Given how something like US aid to Ukraine serves the needs of capital, I’d say the growing consensus on the right that Ukraine is bad and deserves to be destroyed is irrational contrarianism from people no longer capable of articulating a politics at all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 03:32
|
|
|
"Omar is either naive or a liar" is like the ideal outcome for the chuds who invented this "scandal". It's exactly their goal. Doing all their work for them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 03:49
|
|
|
She is a liar, but because of the strikebreaking.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 04:33
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Again, I will say that it is a bold strategy to cede the notion that we shouldn't be arming Nazis in Ukraine to the Nazi-adjacent party in the US. You might even be surprised to learn that there are plenty* of folks to the left of the Democrats that oppose sending billions of dollars of advanced weaponry anywhere overseas while here at home we can't even keep our own veterans out of homeless encampments or in the medical care facilities they need to be in, to say nothing of how the US fails to serve its civilian population. Let's be real here: this isn't a case of not being able to afford both at the same time. If the concern is where the weapons end up or staying out of foreign affairs then fine, talk about that. But let's not pretend cutting support to Ukraine would result in a single extra dollar going to housing the homeless etc. If such a situation ever occurs, well we can cross that bridge if we ever come to it, but for the time being it's a red herring. I AM GRANDO posted:... Agreed. I shudder to imagine what dumb poo poo they're going to take sides on in the next few years. Though I think the American creation story looms large enough in a lot of conservatives minds that they love the idea of being to the Ukrainians what the French were to us during our revolution. Or what they think the French were, etc. That this dovetails with the interests of capital is extremely convenient. There was a time I'd assume this alignment of interests made it a sure thing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 04:48
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Again, I will say that it is a bold strategy to cede the notion that we shouldn't be arming Nazis in Ukraine to the Nazi-adjacent party in the US. You might even be surprised to learn that there are plenty* of folks to the left of the Democrats that oppose sending billions of dollars of advanced weaponry anywhere overseas while here at home we can't even keep our own veterans out of homeless encampments or in the medical care facilities they need to be in, to say nothing of how the US fails to serve its civilian population. This is a line directly out of the most eminently mockable Russian propaganda, a line so bad that it was abandoned even by them months ago. You should reconsider where you're getting your arguments from. Trapezium Dave posted:Rall: The Real Question
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 05:52
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:This is a line directly out of the most eminently mockable Russian propaganda, a line so bad that it was abandoned even by them months ago. You should reconsider where you're getting your arguments from. Yeah but can you address the argument? Because it's still valid even if some rear end in a top hat repeats it. That's like, the entire premise of this subforum. I agree with the Russian propagandist that we should do the good thing, not the bad thing. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 05:58
|
|
|
The idea that things are true or false based on who says them is uh...
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 06:08
|
|
|
Other people already have; it's a ludicrous and obvious tu quoque, coupled with the "Ukrainian Nazis" lie that was an obvious lie more than a year ago.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 06:22
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Yeah but can you address the argument? Because it's still valid even if some rear end in a top hat repeats it. That's like, the entire premise of this subforum. Without looking it up, about what percentage of the US government budget do you think has been spent on military aid to Ukraine, and how do you think that compares to spending on anti poverty programs?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 06:35
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Yeah but can you address the argument? Because it's still valid even if some rear end in a top hat repeats it. That's like, the entire premise of this subforum. What is even the argument needing addressing here that all of Ukraine is Nazis? or that if we didn't help Ukraine we'd suddenly help all the homeless like what was happening before the war? Sometimes a premise is so far fetched and detached from reality it's hard to even begin debunking it, like it was designed to not be a real argument just something to wear people down.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 06:40
|
|
|
Lib and let die posted:Again, I will say that it is a bold strategy to cede the notion that we shouldn't be arming Nazis in Ukraine to the Nazi-adjacent party in the US. You might even be surprised to learn that there are plenty* of folks to the left of the Democrats that oppose sending billions of dollars of advanced weaponry anywhere overseas while here at home we can't even keep our own veterans out of homeless encampments or in the medical care facilities they need to be in, to say nothing of how the US fails to serve its civilian population. Could you elaborate who the Ukrainian nazis are? I'm genuinely curious. When you have explicit jewish leadership at the executive branch, political leadership that openly supports LGBTQA, recruits female soldiers, etc. Lots of things that historically Nazis were tremendous opponents of. This isn't me doubting there are fascist political forces in Ukraine, but I'd appreciate if they were pointed out, thanks. I guess my bigger question is why does that have anything to do with supporting another nation who is under attack by an imperialist power, and it's seemingly in everyone's interest in doing so?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 06:45
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:This is a line directly out of the most eminently mockable Russian propaganda, a line so bad that it was abandoned even by them months ago. You should reconsider where you're getting your arguments from. Why does it matter at all what a lovely political cartoonist that barely anyone has heard of has to say? You're engaging in a guilt by association fallacy here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 06:52
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Why does it matter at all what a lovely political cartoonist that barely anyone has heard of has to say? You're engaging in a guilt by association fallacy here. do you have anything better to do today then argue in bad faith in defense of someone who just unironically argued that the US is funding """""Ukrainian Nazis"""" in 2023? like lmfao go the gently caress outside, touch some grass, it's a beautiful day in whatever dumb loving city you pay taxes in, quit spending your time posting this garbage and enjoy the beautiful outdoors vox clearly doesn't disagree with you that the US should give every homeless person $25,000 dollars, everyone who isn't a soulless husk agrees this is a good idea, give every single homeless person $25,000 right now, i agree with this, vox agrees with this, you obviously agree with this you can simultaneously believe this while also understanding that ukraine is not the nazis and that supporting ukraine in its defense from the literal goddamned invasion going on right now is a good thing, because there's nothing mutually exclusive about wanting to help the homeless and wanting to help ukraine these are both perfectly doable things by the united states, everyone posting in this thread knows this, it's loving stupid to insist that they're mutually exclusive, and it's even stupider to insist your fellow poster believes these to be mutually exclusive based entirely on a lovely webcomic they posted if you have a problem with the fact the united states isn't helping the homeless, good! we all do! everyone here does! that poo poo sucks! maybe consider getting involved in politics to try to get people to help the homeless on a wider scale, or if you don't believe in politics getting anything done, maybe consider getting involved in direct action to help the homeless by spending the money you spent on electricity and internet to post on somethingawful to instead buy the homeless food, socks, warm clothes, etc., or if you don't have the financial capabilities to do so, encourage goons who do to go out there and do some good in the world and help those who need help because it's the right thing to do literally anything else is better than sitting around posting petty snipes at your fellow poster over dumb loving comics because you want to win the epic internet argument, because winning epic internet arguments doesn't keep homeless people from freezing to death in your city, so i suggest you go out there and make some positive change in your community Iamgoofball fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 07:05
|
|
|
Among all the other issues with the argument embodied in the Rall cartoon, many (most?) of the things being sent to Ukraine by the U.S. government have already been produced and were sitting in storage ready to go. Just because some weapons platform might have cost $X million dollars to produce doesn't mean that you can convert it back into that money and buy something else. Also, in a lot of cases these packages are reported as items being "worth" a given amount, as opposed to directly costing that much. That gives lots of wiggle room to include expenses like R&D that might not actually increase unit cost of new production. It's unclear to me how much connection there is with the numbers being reported in these articles and what the U.S. government is actually adding to the budget. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 07:08
|
|
|
Iamgoofball posted:do you have anything better to do today then argue in bad faith in defense of someone who just unironically argued that the US is funding """""Ukrainian Nazis"""" in 2023? like lmfao go the gently caress outside, touch some grass, it's a beautiful day in whatever dumb loving city you pay taxes in, quit spending your time posting this garbage and enjoy the beautiful outdoors Buddy, the D&D mock thread isn't going to stir poo poo to emptyquote by itself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 07:11
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:She is a liar, but because of the strikebreaking. Cut her some slack, she is a young Muslim who probably never heard of the trope about 'unions' and 'labor'.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 07:35
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/AriDrennen/status/1620518098502844422 Sometimes I forget how much I loving hate Donald Trump.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 07:43
|
|
|
I've made this point many times in the Ukraine thread but I'll repeat it here. You're pretty dimwitted if you think the (relatively low amount of) money we spend on supporting Ukraine would instead be going to help the American people if the war wasn't happening. It has never been that way, it will never be that way. The military occupation of Iraq was insanely expensive and when it ended it's not like the money we would have been spending on that was instead put towards I don't know, healthcare for Americans. It just doesn't work that way in the US. It's sad, but that's just how it is.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 07:48
|
|
|
BetterToRuleInHell posted:Cut her some slack, she is a young Muslim who probably never heard of the trope about 'unions' and 'labor'. Young Midwestern Muslim Lady. All apparently signifiers of being astonishingly ignorant. American Congresswoman? College graduate? Cut her some slack! She is clearly too young, Midwestern, Muslim and female to understand! I swear nobody has less expectations of American leftist politicians then American leftists. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 08:09
|
|
|
Next Ukraine derail poster gets a day. Please stop writing further manifestos.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 08:27
|
|
|
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/31/anthony-lowe-police-killing-amputee-huntington-park A literal double amputee who is unarmed, moving away from the police...have we reached a new height or have they shot a quadriplegic rolling down a hill in their bed before and I just missed it?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 10:45
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:This is a line directly out of the most eminently mockable Russian propaganda, a line so bad that it was abandoned even by them months ago. You should reconsider where you're getting your arguments from. Attack my position, not where you think I picked it up from. Or gently caress off and realize you're subject to just as much - if not more - US Propaganda. The notion that only one side of this argument is the position of a propagandized person is the most asinine, baby-brained poo poo you could ever come up with. Is propaganda something Only The Bad Guys Do™ and not something that comes out of our beautiful, unbiased liberal capitalist media? GoutPatrol posted:Next Ukraine derail poster gets a day. Please stop writing further manifestos. 🖕 Google Jeb Bush posted:Hello, if we're going to discuss American aid to Ukraine here (it's definitely relevant to defense budget scheming), (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 11:49
|
|
|
-Blackadder- posted:Sounds interesting, link? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3912640&pagenumber=458&perpage=40&userid=0#post520410605 Its been about a year and I've been thinking about going back and just seeing how he's doing. One of the most interesting people I've met in China. Herstory Begins Now posted:If you go back to my initial posts on this I'm very explicit to not minimize anti-Semitism globally. Thanks for explaining, that's a lot more clear to me now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 12:07
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/31/anthony-lowe-police-killing-amputee-huntington-park Give the American genocide squads a week. They're professionals, after all. Biden will be telling you to only make peaceful, nuanced protest about this within days, after all. Isn't he who you voted for? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 12:40
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Other people already have; it's a ludicrous and obvious tu quoque, coupled with the "Ukrainian Nazis" lie that was an obvious lie more than a year ago. You're such a loving piece of poo poo dude, I hope you get drafted into service when we enter WW3 over this stupid poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 12:54
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Give the American genocide squads a week. They're professionals, after all. Biden will be telling you to only make peaceful, nuanced protest about this within days, after all. Isn't he who you voted for? I've never applied for American citizenship though I think being born to a citizen makes me eligible? I would have voted for Biden though since he is simply as tolerant of fascism as an average American as opposed to being an open fascist. But I've never really been interested in living in a country where fascism is so widely tolerated and its practicioners considered moral people worth politically appealing to by nearly all sectors of the discourse that the cops are well, what you would expect. All the cool things America has aren't really worth the more-than-zero risk of being shot for having a cellphone or being black. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 13:07
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:I've never applied for American citizenship though I think being born to a citizen makes me eligible? If so, you are already considered an American citizen by the U.S. government, you just need to show evidence to prove this to get into the system and get a passport and Social Security number. https://mh.usembassy.gov/u-s-citize....S.%20passport. Also, you should have been filing taxes since you turned 18 (or earlier, if you were working before then). Not filing taxes can lead to massive fines. Please enjoy this first taste of what it is to be an American.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 13:39
|
|
|
Inferior Third Season posted:Did your American parent live in the U.S. for more than five years after the age of 14? I intend IRS as well as any other three letter U.S. Agency to remain as unaware of my presence as humanly possible. I was going to name a nice one as a joke but I honestly can't recall any nice ones.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 14:06
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Young Midwestern Muslim Lady. All apparently signifiers of being astonishingly ignorant. American Congresswoman? College graduate? Cut her some slack! She is clearly too young, Midwestern, Muslim and female to understand! The lofty expectations that Leftists should have of our politicians: Memorize this list of antisemitic tropes. because if you don't know ALL the slurs, you are astonishingly ignorant DarkCrawler posted:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/31/anthony-lowe-police-killing-amputee-huntington-park This cant' be reformed. Disarm the police.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 14:37
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:The lofty expectations that Leftists should have of our politicians: Memorize this list of antisemitic tropes. They already have the right to bear arms if you take their arms away. At this point you're just advocating for the killing of millions of bears just to take their arms and give them to police. Why do you want to create the dreaded man-bear-pig?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 15:16
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Disarm the police.  A story about a double amputee. "Disarm the police". I see where you're going with this, and I can get on board. They can even keep their precious guns.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 15:22
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:The lofty expectations that Leftists should have of our politicians: Memorize this list of antisemitic tropes. "Should" really has nothing to do with it. The fact is that racial stereotypes about Jews and other groups are so pervasive in American society that everyone who's lived here for decades knows the big ones: Jews are rich and cunning, Asians are book-smart but not street-smart, Blacks are tough and stupid, Muslims are fanatical terrorists, etc. We all know these stereotypes because they're all over our media and they determine who gets jobs, who gets charity, who gets lenient sentencing, who gets trusted, who gets elected, who gets killed, who gets housing. If you haven't observed these stereotypes in our popular culture, or the damage they've dealt in our material society, you are in fact astonishingly ignorant. The problem is that Ilhan Omar was the target of such disingenuous criticism so that it made more sense for her to claim a ridiculous level of cultural ignorance than to respond sincerely. All power to her, that's probably how I would've handled it, but we don't have to act like bigotry isn't pervasive in American society because it facilitates her dumb excuse from years ago. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 16:02
|
|
|
I don't think "Maybe someone didn't note one of the many many lovely dumb things rear end in a top hat say all the time, like they said" is "acting like bigotry isn't pervasive". You can think it's unlikely! But I'm not 'downplaying antisemitism' when I say I believe the lady who said the unlikely thing happened to her. Especially in the sociopolitical light explained THOROUGHLY by herstory Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Feb 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:"Should" really has nothing to do with it. The fact is that racial stereotypes about Jews and other groups are so pervasive in American society that everyone who's lived here for decades knows the big ones: Jews are rich and cunning, Asians are book-smart but not street-smart, Blacks are tough and stupid, Muslims are fanatical terrorists, etc. I will say in this public forum that I have always been wrong and am a stupid poopy head if you promise to stop using this thread as an excuse to say your top must-know slurs.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 16:15
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:The problem is that Ilhan Omar was the target of such disingenuous criticism so that it made more sense for her to claim a ridiculous level of cultural ignorance than to respond sincerely. All power to her, that's probably how I would've handled it, but we don't have to act like bigotry isn't pervasive in American society because it facilitates her dumb excuse from years ago. It's not from years ago, it's a comment she made 3 days ago in a CNN interview. Here's the transcript quote:BASH: I just -- I do, though, want to ask, because this has been out there. And it is definitely a big issue that we we're going to -- we're going to hear a lot more about on the House floor next week, Congresswoman. So when you apologized for the -- all about the Benjamins comment, you said: "Antisemitism is real. And I'm grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of antisemitic tropes." What did you learn? I find the discussion of what she believes in her heart of hearts to be really tedious. She was in a television studio giving a planned interview where she knew this question was going to come up. She wasn't accosted on the street, or blindsided by off-topic questions during an unrelated interview. She had plenty of time to plan and run her comments by her staff, and the fact that neither she nor anyone she spoke with told her to excise the bolded line, regardless of whether it was true, is astonishing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 16:24
|
|
|
I again beg you to tell us which stereotypes and slurs a politician must be aware of in 2023, and which are so obscure that we should find them suspect if they do know them. Like I need a slur scale from “common, must-know” to “baroque, extremely suspect”. If a politician accidentally refers to an Algerian man as bow legged, what are we to make of this? And who will hold the congressional hearing when Mexicans Love Dragonball is brought up? Astonishingly dim, unflattering debate for everyone involved.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 16:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 03:21 |
|
|
Baronash posted:It's not from years ago, it's a comment she made 3 days ago in a CNN interview. Here's the transcript You need to keep up with context. Because she was talking about years ago when she answered the question about the thing she said years ago.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2023 16:30
|
|