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mlmp08 posted:If you read the report, it describes them being fired into/around Russian held areas while Russia held Izium, not being used to stop an advance. So while it probably harmed Russians, firing them as a general harassment is no good. Not exactly firing mines into the gap to hold off a rushing offense. Probably a pretty lovely use then and makes the arguments defending them irrelevant.
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Feb 3, 2023 04:38
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Sir John Falstaff posted:You should really take a look at what HRW is actually reporting: https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/ukraine Fair enough. I think I still have a bad taste in my mouth from that idiotic Amnesty International bit of both-sidesism.
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Feb 3, 2023 04:47
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Crab Dad posted:Or nukes on defense. You say this like people should have nukes
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Feb 3, 2023 04:48
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My Spirit Otter posted:You say this like people should have nukes eight billion people, eight billion nukes. last one standing wins the prize (the prize is acute radiation syndrome)
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Feb 3, 2023 05:52
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Jimmy Smuts posted:How long does it take for them to rust into being harmless? I'm pretty harmless already
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Feb 3, 2023 06:06
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Crab Dad posted:I understand that but what does it matter when you, your family and everyone you knew is relocated and enslaved if not straight out murdered? Mostly that anti-personnel mines are mostly ineffective in a military use case. They aren't even good at area denial because unlike civilians and animals, infantry is generally alert (questionable) to danger and planned axis of resistance that they might be exposed and watching for mines. They accomplish area delaying at best while substantially increasing long term casualties among noncombatants. Area denial vehicle mines are far more effective, and are big enough to have easy mechanism for self-deactivation.
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Feb 3, 2023 07:25
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Crab Dad posted:Ooh this war stuff is complicated.
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Feb 3, 2023 13:30
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M_Gargantua posted:Area denial vehicle mines are far more effective, and are big enough to have easy mechanism for self-deactivation. Also most children don't weigh 2 tons [citation needed]
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Feb 3, 2023 13:31
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EasilyConfused posted:Also most children don't weigh 2 tons [citation needed] Judging by American grocery stores, the US is hard at work on solving this problem.
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Feb 3, 2023 13:32
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We cannot allow an infant(lb) gap, gentlemen.
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Feb 3, 2023 15:37
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My Spirit Otter posted:well gently caress, ukraine might as well use chemical weapons if thats how y'all feel They're in an existential struggle against a fate immeasurably worse than death. I don't give a single moral poo poo what they do, if it manages to be the most effective use of their resources and not kick off WW3. The things that are "banned" are universally both cruel and not particularly great ways to use your resources.
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Feb 3, 2023 16:01
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It was Amnesty International that did the ridiculous one-sided reporting without working with the Ukrainians. HRW’s seems fine and in line with trying to prevent civilian casualties while providing the greater context that this is happening because of a rampaging genocidal army.
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Feb 3, 2023 16:05
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My Spirit Otter posted:well gently caress, ukraine might as well use chemical weapons if thats how y'all feel Like, the kind that ends with some polonium in a Kremlin samovar?
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Feb 3, 2023 18:57
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did mortabis finally get thread banned from the cold war thread in gip so he has to post here
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Feb 3, 2023 19:01
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No he just likes to occassionally come up with fox news talking points in multiple places
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Feb 3, 2023 19:19
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Friend, while your on probation, do yourself a favor and buy WARNO. Its better than Wargame was.
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Feb 3, 2023 23:13
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Idk much about the poking people with pointy sticks part of war, but imo the one thing 100% of people involved in war should be doing is trying to ensure wars do not punish civilians any more than it already does.
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Feb 4, 2023 01:02
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Idk much about the poking people with pointy sticks part of war, but imo the one thing 100% of people involved in war should be doing is trying to ensure wars do not punish civilians any more than it already does. People keep saying this but the Russians have already declared their goal is genocide. They literally don’t make a line from civilian/combatant.
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Feb 4, 2023 01:26
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Yes and?
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Feb 4, 2023 01:55
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Crab Dad posted:People keep saying this but the Russians have already declared their goal is genocide. They literally don’t make a line from civilian/combatant. So your point is...therefore it's OK for Ukraine to use anti-personnel landmines which, as has been stated, are of somewhat questionable military value but is very likely to cause a great deal of suffering for Ukrainian civilians years down the line? I mean, even if you assume that the mines are actually very useful and effective, this is some "We must destroy the village in order to save it" reasoning.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:11
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I honestly don’t give a gently caress what Ukraine uses to kill more Russians, no.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:13
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Icon Of Sin posted:I honestly don’t give a gently caress what Ukraine uses to kill more Russians, no. So one of the main problem with anti-personnel land mines is that they don't just kill the enemy army. They sit around and injure or kill civilians. The PFM-1 is supposed to self-destruct after 40 hours but notoriously does not actually work that way, while still being dangerous if stepped on or handled. When Russians fire anti-personnel mines or set boobytraps, they also claim "oh this is just for the enemy army dudes," but it doesn't take a genius to realize that when they're boobytrapping residential areas, they're indiscriminately putting civilians at risk. Yeah, a mortar round can miss or have collateral, MG rounds can land in civilian homes, but that sort of weapon isn't designed to lie there dormant in areas where potentially the civilians even outnumber the soldiers, so they end up at great risk of injury.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:16
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Icon Of Sin posted:I honestly don’t give a gently caress what Ukraine uses to kill more Russians, no. what if there were ways to kill more russians and destroy more russian vehicles that involve killing significantly fewer civilians
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Feb 4, 2023 02:16
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Icon Of Sin posted:I honestly don’t give a gently caress what Ukraine uses to kill more Russians, no. I mean the thing is, at least run a cost-benefit analysis? Firing a gun randomly into the air in the vague direction of Russia can potentially kill more Russians as well but that doesn't mean it's worth doing. Nuking Kyiv if a single Russian gets within city borders could also kill more Russians, but hardly seems worth it. If landmines MIGHT kill some Russians but will DEFINITELY kill a lot of Ukrainian civilians, that seems like a questionable trade and one wonders if it's worth it.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:26
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Idk much about the poking people with pointy sticks part of war, but imo the one thing 100% of people involved in war should be doing is trying to ensure wars do not punish civilians any more than it already does. Russian civilians are supporting the war just by participating in that economy and I wish them all the suffering they've inflicted on Ukraine. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 4, 2023 02:39
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slurm posted:Russian civilians are supporting the war just by participating in that economy and I wish them all the suffering they've inflicted on Ukraine. 1: jfc, this is a monstrous take regarding anti-personnel mines 2: Just wait until you find out what which civilians live in Izyum.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:41
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slurm posted:Russian civilians are supporting the war just by participating in that economy and I wish them all the suffering they've inflicted on Ukraine. Pretty sure there's two countries of people that could have said the same of us for the last twenty years.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:51
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slurm posted:Russian civilians are supporting the war just by participating in that economy and I wish them all the suffering they've inflicted on Ukraine. how dare those people buy things in the only place they can buy things
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Feb 4, 2023 02:55
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Crab Dad posted:People keep saying this but the Russians have already declared their goal is genocide. They literally don’t make a line from civilian/combatant. This stuff is largely irrelevant in the context of the report, which is the basis of the discussion. I'm going to just say its extremely difficult to generate a positive analysis for indiscriminately dropping mines around your own towns/peoples. If your basis is "theres Russians nearby, mines ok" I'm going to have to disagree and ask for a more thorough analysis.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:00
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GD_American posted:Pretty sure there's two countries of people that could have said the same of us for the last twenty years. Yeah
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Feb 4, 2023 03:24
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slurm posted:Russian civilians are supporting the war just by participating in that economy and I wish them all the suffering they've inflicted on Ukraine. You're talking like the actions of the Russian government are a reflection on the desires of the Russian people or the latter have any mechanism to constrain the former.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:53
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slurm posted:Russian civilians are supporting the war just by participating in that economy and I wish them all the suffering they've inflicted on Ukraine. Out of interest, have you spent much time near firing artillery?
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Feb 4, 2023 03:58
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slurm posted:Russian civilians are supporting the war just by participating in that economy and I wish them all the suffering they've inflicted on Ukraine. You're a real fascist piece of poo poo spilling opinions like this around
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Feb 4, 2023 04:13
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https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1621538639485308933
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Feb 4, 2023 05:00
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Tomn posted:I mean the thing is, at least run a cost-benefit analysis? Firing a gun randomly into the air in the vague direction of Russia can potentially kill more Russians as well but that doesn't mean it's worth doing. Nuking Kyiv if a single Russian gets within city borders could also kill more Russians, but hardly seems worth it. If landmines MIGHT kill some Russians but will DEFINITELY kill a lot of Ukrainian civilians, that seems like a questionable trade and one wonders if it's worth it. I’d be curious what’s actively being made, bought or supplied vs whatever crap they have left lying around. Yes it’s more effective and safer to build like anything else. However I’m not so sure a weapon should not be used up due to future considerations that can only be taken into account if they “win”.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:01
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Crab Dad posted:I’d be curious what’s actively being made, bought or supplied vs whatever crap they have left lying around. Yes it’s more effective and safer to build like anything else. However I’m not so sure a weapon should not be used up due to future considerations that can only be taken into account if they “win”. I am. Tossing those mines into civilian populations is way way way way more likely to maim the very civilians they're trying to protect than to have any appreciable impact on Russia. That's not a "future consideration that can only be taken into account if they 'win,'" it's the reality of deploying those mines. Win, lose, or continued stalemate, they're going to blow the extremities off innocent Ukrainians.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:09
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McNally posted:I am. Tossing those mines into civilian populations is way way way way more likely to maim the very civilians they're trying to protect than to have any appreciable impact on Russia. That's not a "future consideration that can only be taken into account if they 'win,'" it's the reality of deploying those mines. Win, lose, or continued stalemate, they're going to blow the extremities off innocent Ukrainians. Lose there will be no Ukrainians. This has been made very clear by Russia.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:12
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Crab Dad posted:Lose there will be no Ukrainians. This has been made very clear by Russia. Maim enough of your own population, you have no Ukraine.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:13
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Crab Dad posted:Lose there will be no Ukrainians. This has been made very clear by Russia. And blowing off your population's legs for no discernable military gain does what, exactly, to preserve Ukraine?
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Feb 4, 2023 05:15
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Crab Dad posted:Lose there will be no Ukrainians. This has been made very clear by Russia. This is a "we had to destroy the village to save it" argument. I have no actual analysis for it and no idea what choice I would make.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:27
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