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Harold Fjord posted:The slots come from "spellcasting archetype" https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=170 You are not correct. quote:Basic Spellcasting Feat: Usually gained at 4th level, these feats grant a 1st-level spell slot. At 6th level, they grant you a 2nd-level spell slot, and if you have a spell repertoire, you can select one spell from your repertoire as a signature spell. At 8th level, they grant you a 3rd-level spell slot. Archetypes refer to these benefits as the "basic spellcasting benefits". Literally every other archetype that gives basic spellcasting benefits says that it does so. This doesnt, it is a mistake either way. If it is intended to give basic spellcasting benefits, it needs to say so, because it currently does not. If it instead gives its own spell slots, it also needs to say so, which it currently doesn't.
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Feb 7, 2023 14:54
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Piell posted:You are not correct. You can complain all you want that it doesn't say explicitly what you wish it did there, but RAW it gives you spell slots. "We made a word that means the rule". Ok. The rule still is the rule, even when they didn't use the word. That they didn't use the redundant word fits perfectly with their minimalist approach. It's terrible, but it works. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 14:55
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Harold Fjord posted:You can complain all you want that it doesn't say explicitly what you wish it did there, but RAW it gives you spell slots. No, it doesn't, you are not correct. See Captivator, which despite having a feat named "Basic/Expert/Master Captivator Spellcasting" does not give basic/expert/master spellcasting benefits.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:00
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Piell posted:No, it doesn't, you are not correct. See Captivator, which despite having a feat named "Basic Captivator Spellcasting" does not give basic spellcasting benefits. What slots do you think captivator is using? This is incoherent It gives basic spellcasting benefits because it is a basic spellcasting feat
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Feb 7, 2023 15:01
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Harold Fjord posted:What slots do you think captivator is using? This is incoherent You specifically cast them as innate spells, it's not the same thing as the basic spellcasting benefits
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Feb 7, 2023 15:02
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Oh. I was confused how you thought they compare. Have they errata'd that all Captivator basic spells are innate? RAW only the first is quote:At 6th level, you gain a 2nd-level spell, and at 8th level, you gain a 3rd-level spell. Each of these spells must be from either the enchantment or illusion school. The use of "full fleged spellcasting" for captivator suggests to me they can use wands, even if it doesn't explicitly say. And the archetype rule says he can too. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 15:04
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Harold Fjord posted:Oh. I was confused how you thought they compare. He doesn't use the slots. Yes, all the captivator spells are listed as innate. The Captivator doesn't get basic spellcasting/expert/master benefits, and neither does Oatia Skysage
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Feb 7, 2023 15:06
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Not here, only one is innate: quote:Your innate ability to fascinate others develops into full-fledged spellcasting. This spellcasting comes naturally and instinctively to you, rather than as a product of training. Choose a 1st-level occult spell from either the enchantment or illusion school. You can Cast this Spell as an occult innate spell. At 6th level, you gain a 2nd-level spell, and at 8th level, you gain a 3rd-level spell. Each of these spells must be from either the enchantment or illusion school. And sorry you are wrong but having slots and innate spells is not a contradiction. They get wands.' Being innate doesn't contradict slots. You are still limited in uses. Otherwise countercharm would be infinitely spammable. quote:You lose an innate, non-cantrip spell of the same school as the triggering spell as if you had Cast the Spell. You then attempt to counteract the triggering spell with your spell.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:08
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If Captivator gets basic/expert/master spellcasting benefits then they would be getting the slots from that on top of the innate spells. They don't. If it doesn't list "basic spellcasting benefits", you don't get them
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Feb 7, 2023 15:12
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If you want to play with a worse interpretation of the rules, go for it its your table
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Feb 7, 2023 15:13
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Harold Fjord posted:If you want to play with a worse interpretation of the rules, go for it its your table Do you think Captivors get both the innate spells and slots from basic spellcasting benefits? I suspect you don't, despite that being the result your interpretation demands. Oatia Skysage clearly needed more editing (see also Starlight Armor which is missing a duration), I don't know why you're so insistent on this interpretation that makes zero sense when applied generally when "the person writing this didn't use the correct term" is the real answer
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Feb 7, 2023 15:17
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They made a term to use as a reference to a rule. Not using that term when referring to a rule is a poor choice, i agree. It doesn't make the rule inapplicable when otherwise obviously applicable. RAW I'd give them both wands.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:20
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Harold Fjord posted:They made a term to use as a reference to a rule. Not using that term when referring to a rule is a poor choice, i agree. It doesn't make the rule inapplicable when otherwise obviously applicable. I didn't ask about wands. Do you think Captivors get both the innate spells listed in the feats and slots from basic/expert/master spellcasting benefits?
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Feb 7, 2023 15:22
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Wands are another "basic spellcasting feature" so they are essentially part of the same overall rule point/dispute. RAW, yes, captivators get both. Likely, someone forgot that innate spells are supposed to be manually assigned a frequency and not use slots, so they forgot to make sure to list "use each of these innate spells only once a day" because they were thinking about the spell slots covering the same rule.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:24
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Also, if you don’t want to get into the weeds about the Captivator and the Ghost Hunter, take a look at the Red Mantis Assassin, which has a Basic Spellcasting feat, which clearly does not correspond to the basic benefits (their slot progression is all weird and special and unique to them.) The Oatia skysages progression of spells known also does not follow the standard spellcasting benefits curve. So which portion of the spellcasting benefits do they get? Can they pick a signature spell? The feats listed don’t grant that, but the Basic/Expert/Master benefits do. We have three different models of how so called “Basic [Archetype] Spellcasting” looks. Only one of those three gives explicitly defined Basic Spellcasting Benefits. While assuming the Skysage gets them is a reasonable assumption, it is absolutely not the only reasonable assumption. Better editing would have fixed this.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:26
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Signature spells are part of having a repertoire so Skysage gets them. I see no reason to think otherwise. RMA is interestingly weird. They only have basic Magic, which basic is an unfortunate term to use, and advanced. They are an archetype with magic, but not a "spellcasting archetype". That's why its Magic, and not Spellcasting. You can be an RMA without spells. You take shroud and fading and you can move on. RMA do not get wands. eta: I knew I saw something in captivator about frequency. Captivating intensity "You can cast each occult innate spell granted by captivator archetype feats one additional time per day. " So it is once a day. They just forgot to write it down because they got confused about innate vs slots. Or they thought once a day was rule default when it explicitly is not. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 15:33
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Signature spells are absolutely not part of a repertoire. If you get spells via sorcerer archetype, you do not get signature spells. Similarly, if you're an alchemist archetype, you do not get Quick Alchemy unless you explicitly pick it up. If you gain benefits, Pathfinder says so, for instance: "You gain the expert bounded spellcasting benefits." quote:The ability that gives you an innate spell tells you how often you can cast it—usually once per day—and its magical tradition. Innate spells do default to once per day. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 16:31
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Cyouni posted:Signature spells are absolutely not part of a repertoire. If you get spells via sorcerer archetype, you do not get signature spells. Similarly, if you're an alchemist archetype, you do not get Quick Alchemy unless you explicitly pick it up.  Though I should have specified it occurs at basic level, not dedication.https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=170 " and if you have a spell repertoire, you can select one spell from your repertoire as a signature spell" Cyouni posted:Innate spells do default to once per day. I would assume so too but the rule says "The ability that gives you an innate spell tells you how often you can cast it—usually once per day" which is sufficiently vague to make it a reasonable point of dispute that should be specified. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 16:37
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Harold Fjord posted:
While true, that's absolutely a different thing. Note that's a significantly more limited version of signature spells, where you get one per feat. Signature spells are not part of a repertoire. You get some level of signature spells with the spellcasting archetypes, but that doesn't mean that all repertoires have signature spells. For instance, a sorcerer with halcyon spells has a repertoire but explicitly no signature.
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Feb 7, 2023 17:46
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Halcyon specific rule "can't select a halcyon spell as a signature" trumps the general rule. General rule is still the general rule though. Im not sure what you are arguing at this point. Is it that other classes have specific features that do more than this with signature spells? Because, yeah of course. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 18:16
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Please point to the general rule that says getting a repertoire means getting signature spells. Basic spellcasting benefits is specific, because it specifies that you get this extra bonus at certain levels, whereas that's not normally the case.
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Feb 7, 2023 20:27
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That's the general rule. I don't know what you're arguing anymore but I'm sure it doesn't matter The specific question asked was if my read would give O'skyguy signature spells. The answer is yes. That's why halcyon requires an explicit exclusion Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 7, 2023 |
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Feb 7, 2023 20:47
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How does melee reach work against enemies that are flying / otherwise vertically higher than the party? Lets say I have some enemies that are 8' up in the air, how would that work in practice?
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Feb 7, 2023 21:25
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KPC_Mammon posted:How does melee reach work against enemies that are flying / otherwise vertically higher than the party? Lets say I have some enemies that are 8' up in the air, how would that work in practice? Figure out if the melee can reach them or not. 8' feet is not very high so I would say a melee weapons could reach up there on a medium character.
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Feb 7, 2023 21:29
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Vertical cubes and equal ability to hit one another with equal reach are key. It gets complicated at diagonals from further range. If the eagle can peck me and has regular melee range, then I can punch it and it must be in an adjacent cube. If it's a cube further out I need a standard reach weapon.
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Feb 7, 2023 21:32
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KPC_Mammon posted:How does melee reach work against enemies that are flying / otherwise vertically higher than the party? Lets say I have some enemies that are 8' up in the air, how would that work in practice? I'd still operate via vertical cubes and measure from there. So you'd be picking either the 5' high cube or the 10' high cube.
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Feb 7, 2023 21:51
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Wonderful, thanks for the info!
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Feb 7, 2023 21:57
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The missing moment hook is neat, even if the archetype causes strife. I kinda fell out of the hobby around 1E but I for some reason keep buying RPG book humble bundles. I recently ran my family through beginner's box and they liked it so I am widening that out to an entire campaign. Going to join the herd and Abomination vaults with some Troubles in Otari mixed in. The order I was thinking of is: Beginners Box => Ch. 1 Troubles => Abomination Vaults up until early Ch. 2 => Ch. 2 Troubles => Abomination Vaults with the rest kinda naturally slotting in during town time. Basically doubling up on level 1-4 content to do it that way - I think I just up the XP to level a bit for those levels, adjust XP rewards down for the difficulty if they overlevel and it should be fine though?
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Feb 7, 2023 22:17
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Lamuella posted:I'm definitely overfacing myself with this, but this week I ran the session zero for my first Pathfinder campaign, which I've been thinking about for about six months Trip report from session 1: Wow, that was fun, and surprisingly easy to GM. Everyone was really enthusiastic. There were some slow bits due to unfamiliar rules, but I got a sense of everyone's characters. We got into a big combat in the first half hour of the game and it ran most of the rest of the session (which made me worry we'd have too much boring rules poo poo) but everyone managed to get a moment to do something cool. A druid dissolved an orc, a posh-boy sorcerer got immobilised by a bolas crossbow and burst into tears, a druid saved the life of another druid, and a halfling jumped through a window with a cake. Above all it was fun and that's what I want a first session to be.
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Feb 7, 2023 23:28
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Buffer posted:The missing moment hook is neat, even if the archetype causes strife. I would suggest just doing milestone leveling and not tracking XP; increase the parties level when they move down a level in the dungeon. Then you don’t need to worry about side content blowing out the XP curve and modifying it to fit.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:06
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That raises an interesting question: what are the benefits, if any, of XP levelling? My first long campaign we did XP at first and everyone hated it. It was fiddly and people would forget their score and level up late, and we wouldn't all level up at once. Because of this the GM switched to Milestone and it just felt... right. We grew with the story. I'm sure there are benefits to XP I'm not thinking about and would be happy to hear them.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:11
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Lamuella posted:That raises an interesting question: what are the benefits, if any, of XP levelling? My first long campaign we did XP at first and everyone hated it. It was fiddly and people would forget their score and level up late, and we wouldn't all level up at once. Because of this the GM switched to Milestone and it just felt... right. We grew with the story. I'm sure there are benefits to XP I'm not thinking about and would be happy to hear them. XP caters to people rooted in 80's nostalgia.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:18
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My Pappy used XP just like his Pappy before him!
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Feb 8, 2023 00:20
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XP is good if you want to play something closer to Fantasy X-Com: Randomized Table Hexcrawl Edition. If you're using PF2 as a storygame with some X-Com elements, definitely go milestones.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:23
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I've run with milestone leveling for years, but recently started doing XP in my Beginner's Box -> Troubles of Otari adventure, and my players loved it. There's small moments of mechanical victory in between the levelups, beyond just progressing the plot and RPing. You do things, and get small numbers. Numbers go up. Enough small numbers going up makes bigger numbers go up. Big number go up and you're more powerful. That feels good. I think as long as you make sure to reward people for other things than just killing monsters, it's good. It helps that in PF2e it's always 1000xp to level up, and each fight is like 80-120 xp depending on difficulty. Easy to keep track, generally.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:24
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Chevy Slyme posted:I would suggest just doing milestone leveling and not tracking XP; increase the parties level when they move down a level in the dungeon. Then you don’t need to worry about side content blowing out the XP curve and modifying it to fit. That's a really good thought. That's basically what I'm doing if I'm adjusting the curve just way more direct.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:24
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Lamuella posted:That raises an interesting question: what are the benefits, if any, of XP levelling? My first long campaign we did XP at first and everyone hated it. It was fiddly and people would forget their score and level up late, and we wouldn't all level up at once. Because of this the GM switched to Milestone and it just felt... right. We grew with the story. I'm sure there are benefits to XP I'm not thinking about and would be happy to hear them. XP works when passage of in game time is granular and meaningful, like for Ruby Phoenix. You sit around and don’t do anything for an in game day and you’re now under level, good luck!
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Feb 8, 2023 00:28
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PF 2 at least does XP pretty easily. 1000 for Level Up always.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:37
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Lamuella posted:That raises an interesting question: what are the benefits, if any, of XP levelling? My first long campaign we did XP at first and everyone hated it. It was fiddly and people would forget their score and level up late, and we wouldn't all level up at once. Because of this the GM switched to Milestone and it just felt... right. We grew with the story. I'm sure there are benefits to XP I'm not thinking about and would be happy to hear them. XP is good for environments where players aren’t all leveling up simultaneously or playing every session; environments like organized play or West Marches campaigns are a great example. Similarly, for games that don’t have those clear breakpoints via narrative or environmental structure (floors of the dungeon, or chapters of a story), XP provides a solid baseline expectation to a GM of just how many and what sort of encounters ought to happen “per level” in a typical game, even if that game doesn’t actually track XP directly. Milestone is the better solution for most groups, but it also makes perfect sense and is probably better game design to have XP still be the default with a strong recommendation for stable groups to use milestone instead.
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Feb 8, 2023 00:57
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I generally use Milestone because most of the time it's about the story and skipping fights is fine as long as things don't feel too quick, but I used XP for Abomination Vaults because it encouraged the players to check every nook and cranny of a floor instead of just rushing down quickly. Having the two different options to use depending on the style of the game is handy.
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Feb 8, 2023 04:00
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