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euphronius posted:That’s not unique to stoicism I don’t think Slavery creates pretty obvious social and psychological demand for philosophy that makes being a slave tolerable.
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Feb 9, 2023 15:18
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Seneca writes that suicide is preferable to slavery, so that's not a unified belief in Stoicism.
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Feb 9, 2023 15:37
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This all reminds me that existential comics had one of their better strips recently on this very topic
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Feb 9, 2023 17:18
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I was learning about how in, say, medieval England, people kept pigs even in towns and cities and would let them go forage during the day. Laws were enacted involving issues such as pig curfews and who would bear responsibility if a pig caused damage. I was wondering at the end of the day would the pigs find their way home on their own, or would their owners have to go herd them back? Also, how were pigs marked for ownership?
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Feb 9, 2023 17:56
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Gaius Marius posted:What's wrong with slaughtering Germans? Indeed. I am a German and I often wish I could.
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Feb 9, 2023 22:36
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Kevin DuBrow posted:I was learning about how in, say, medieval England, people kept pigs even in towns and cities and would let them go forage during the day. Laws were enacted involving issues such as pig curfews and who would bear responsibility if a pig caused damage. I was wondering at the end of the day would the pigs find their way home on their own, or would their owners have to go herd them back? Also, how were pigs marked for ownership? Ear cuts, wooden tags, theres a bunch of ways we brand livestock in modern times that you could reasonably use back in the middle ages.
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Feb 10, 2023 03:18
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Tulip posted:This all reminds me that existential comics had one of their better strips recently on this very topic This poo poo sucks
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Feb 10, 2023 04:22
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a fatguy baldspot posted:This poo poo sucks If you were a good stoic it wouldn't bother you that it sucked.
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Feb 10, 2023 06:47
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The idea that Stoicism advocates for non thinking is such a nonsensical turn that has become so common for forum members to hold.
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Feb 10, 2023 07:03
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Gaius Marius posted:The idea that Stoicism advocates for non thinking is such a nonsensical turn that has become so common for forum members to hold. The problem with stoicism is it’s pessimism about how few could really know reason and be logikos. I’ll take Christianity’s grace over that any day.
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Feb 10, 2023 07:20
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The problem with stoicism is it’s pessimism about how few could really know reason and be logikos. The Odd part is I don't ever see criticism of that, or any other of the higher levels of Stoicist thought. It's always just attacks against the authors, or misunderstanding of the most basic Stoic ideas. Being able to accurately distinguish against controllable and uncontrollable factors, and to acknowledge them and accept them without gnashing one's teeth should be beyond censure. It's pure logic and purely helpful.
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Feb 10, 2023 07:32
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Depends on the goal. Maybe the goal is to be as upset as possible. vvvv Yes pretty much, "being able to accept the things you can't change" can get rhetorically flipped into "actually, don't change things," although I kind of wonder how frequent that actually is. It isn't as if Christianity hasn't been used to defend its share of static or oppressive power structures here and there. Nessus fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 08:05
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Gaius Marius posted:The Odd part is I don't ever see criticism of that, or any other of the higher levels of Stoicist thought. It's always just attacks against the authors, or misunderstanding of the most basic Stoic ideas. Being able to accurately distinguish against controllable and uncontrollable factors, and to acknowledge them and accept them without gnashing one's teeth should be beyond censure. It's pure logic and purely helpful. There are times and situations one can find oneself in that are past logic. If one cannot be what one is, controllable and uncontrollable doesn’t matter, logic doesn’t matter. That’s the situation where stoicism not helpful. The Christian Logos because it is on the cross can still function in that space. But stoicism also has the problem that certain economic and political and corporate interests distort it for their ends. It gets used like mindfulness. It gets treated as a tool to get people to behave in a desired fashion and accepted their conditions. It’s gets simplified to merely that one should accept. That creates some of the attacks on the authors and I think is where the misunderstanding originates.
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Feb 10, 2023 08:07
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Nessus posted:Depends on the goal. Maybe the goal is to be as upset as possible. The problem is that that is just Rhetoric, if one is discerning they should be able to realize they're being taken for a ride. "Actually things don't change" is not only a logical fallacy it's a demonstrably obvious one. I can stack some scallions in a glass and refute it, or curl some weight for a months. The problem fundamentally is that people, in general have become so demoralized, unsure, and untrained into the arts of thinking that criticality slips past their cognition. I think DFW was onto something far greater than he assumed when he tapped into the existential ennui of the millennium generation. People are so tapped into the negative that they've orientated their world view around the "Not". A Zoomer would take objectively correct phrase "Most Peeps don't know Mandarin" and expand phantomly their conviction that it's impossible to learn the language, after all in their view most people Don't know it, therefore it is almost impossible, and being almost impossible to learn is the same as impossible. There is nothing in the statement that makes that true. Theirs nothing in reality that makes that true. Their are counterfactual examples posting on this very forum making a lie of it, and yet they'll conserve the not'iness of their generation and promulgate their denial tactics. It leads not only to false conclusions but to a promulgation of those conclusions by those whom are unable to discern sophistry to knowledge. Bar Ran Dun posted:But stoicism also has the problem that certain economic and political and corporate interests distort it for their ends. It gets used like mindfulness. It gets treated as a tool to get people to behave in a desired fashion and accepted their conditions. It’s gets simplified to merely that one should accept. That creates some of the attacks on the authors and I think is where the misunderstanding originates. That's true of all systems and beliefs though, in ideal circumstance we'll have people, individually, able to each pull apart the conjoined fallacies and over extensions and discern the truth.
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Feb 10, 2023 08:38
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I thought most of the proper written latin we have is strict Caesar-era "GALLIA EST OMNIS DIVISA IN PARTES TRES" without a lot of knowledge about how people actually spoke? The literate just got taught proper writing by friends like Gaius, Cato, and Cicero, even if they were speaking some kind of crazy jargon from Thrace or Celtiberia 200 years later. So not a lot of knowledge of how phonetic it was. We do have some knowledge of this from late antiquity because you start seeing writing manuals saying 'don't write it like that, that's not proper Latin, write it like this <insert Caesar-style Latin>' - and usually the 'wrong' version looks like it's quite probably phonetic vulgar Latin.
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Feb 10, 2023 15:49
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Gaius Marius posted:The problem is that that is just Rhetoric, if one is discerning they should be able to realize they're being taken for a ride. "Actually things don't change" is not only a logical fallacy it's a demonstrably obvious one. I can stack some scallions in a glass and refute it, or curl some weight for a months. I don't think this is due to a lack of critical thinking, but due to an imbalanced/poorly trained form of critical thinking; critical thinking that becomes its own intrinsic end, or which (on a simple level) is deeply internalized. Instead of asking yourself every day or every week if you're being true to your goals, you're asking yourself every minute if you're wasting your life.
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Feb 10, 2023 16:14
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Gaius Marius posted:The problem is that that is just Rhetoric, if one is discerning they should be able to realize they're being taken for a ride. "Actually things don't change" is not only a logical fallacy it's a demonstrably obvious one. I can stack some scallions in a glass and refute it, or curl some weight for a months. I feel like you're kind of making up a guy to get mad at but I do think that there is something kind of interesting that modern CBT fundamentally operates on an operation of "identify which problems you can control and which ones you can't, and for the ones you can't we should learn how to cope with them" but is not generally referenced as any sort of heir to stoicism. On the other hand we see Elizabeth Holmes quoting Marcus Aurelius and a SV deregulation lobbying firm named "The Cicero Institute1. And at the same time the stoic metaphysics, of a unity of the world that is only separate in appearance, is a thing that I only hear about from very woo people but they never reference any stoicism. So we have multiple routes that engage with stoic thought at some level or another, but they are not seen as connected in any particularly meaningful way. 1 There is something amusing that if you look at those types, they tend to regard CBT with a lot of scorn compared to very whacky therapeutic methods like blood infusions of youth or obsessively quantifying every single thing they do, even though I don't really see how those techniques are more stoical than CBT's basic "I do what I can and I bear what I must."
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Feb 10, 2023 16:21
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The funny thing with the youth blood transfusion is that it's now outdated science, they figured out how it actually worked. But the original version is a better story, and I absolutely bet you Peter Thiel would stick with it for that reason too. Was there some equivalent of literary scorn for the coping mechanisms of the, you know, less important (but not entirely negligible) classes in Roman literature? I suspect Greek polities were not quite large enough to get that level of stratification, but I could be surprised.
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Feb 10, 2023 16:30
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Gaius Marius posted:A Zoomer would take objectively correct phrase "Most Peeps don't know Mandarin" and expand phantomly their conviction that it's impossible to learn the language, after all in their view most people Don't know it, therefore it is almost impossible, and being almost impossible to learn is the same as impossible. this seems like a pretty rad strawman you've set up here, i'm glad you're dunking on this hypothetical Zoomer who surely exists
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Feb 10, 2023 16:56
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It is stoic to post what you can, and not to post what you cannot.
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Feb 10, 2023 17:27
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Tunicate posted:It is stoic to post what you can, and not to post what you cannot.
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Feb 10, 2023 17:31
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Nessus posted:Fellas, is it stoic to not have a theoretical self-conception as someone other than a land-owning aristocrat? Noted land-owning aristocrat, Epictetus. 
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Feb 10, 2023 22:46
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I guess the problem is that people are going to naturally disagree about what is and isn’t unchangeable. So what seems like prudence to some sounds like defeatism to another.
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Feb 12, 2023 06:28
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imagining the gaius marius of antiquity grumbling about that little poo poo sulla, then sulla doing the same grumbling about that little poo poo julius caesar
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Feb 12, 2023 06:50
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galagazombie posted:I guess the problem is that people are going to naturally disagree about what is and isn’t unchangeable. So what seems like prudence to some sounds like defeatism to another. The first is that Stoicism (much like a lot of Buddhist ideas, expressed as "Mindfulness") often come up as corporate stress reduction program ideas, which makes it easy to take the part for the whole, and think that the entire thing is just "the copium of the masses," rather than having a range of ideas to explore. The second is a fairly common idea that anger is an intrinsic and direct motivator for social action (which I'm going to define very broadly because there's a ton of poo poo people want to do), and that if people are less angry or in pain through these methods, they will not seek other methods, which will affect the underlying causes. These are of course interrelated, because why would the Man want you to do Mindfulness exercises if they weren't going to stop you from defying the Man? But I don't see anything in stoicism that would stop you from working to improve the lot of your fellow man, but I do see a lot that would help you endure setbacks (which will be inevitable, if only because social progress tends to involve a lot of boring meetings).
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Feb 12, 2023 07:54
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It turns out that philosophy involves thinking carefully about nuanced ideas.
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Feb 12, 2023 09:52
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Bongo Bill posted:It turns out that philosophy involves thinking carefully about nuanced ideas. Nah, it's actually all bullshit can all be summarized in a webcomic.
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Feb 12, 2023 10:12
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Bongo Bill posted:It turns out that philosophy involves thinking carefully about nuanced ideas.
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Feb 12, 2023 11:09
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Let's get zenpencils in here to sort this out once and for all.
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Feb 15, 2023 06:44
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Nah, it's actually all bullshit can all be summarized in a webcomic. 
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Feb 15, 2023 07:39
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gently caress, I forgot about Dinosaur Comics.
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Feb 15, 2023 08:13
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A buddy of mine just made the claim that Romans used to drink vinegar water as a pick me up like we drink coffee or tea today. Total bullshit or nugget of truth?
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Feb 19, 2023 02:38
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chainchompz posted:A buddy of mine just made the claim that Romans used to drink vinegar water as a pick me up like we drink coffee or tea today. Total bullshit or nugget of truth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posca true
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Feb 19, 2023 02:41
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chainchompz posted:A buddy of mine just made the claim that Romans used to drink vinegar water as a pick me up like we drink coffee or tea today. Total bullshit or nugget of truth? True. diluted wine vinegar, in Latin “posca”, a poor man’s drink. Said to have been given to Jesus on the cross. I’ve had switchel which is the same idea (albeit now a fancy specialty product worth making taste good). I don’t love it but it’s drinkable.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:43
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No kidding? Thanks Roman history thread!
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Feb 19, 2023 02:47
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If you've ever had shrub, that's broadly similar: water, vinegar, other flavorings you might have on hand. It's pretty good!
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Feb 19, 2023 02:47
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chainchompz posted:A buddy of mine just made the claim that Romans used to drink vinegar water as a pick me up like we drink coffee or tea today. Total bullshit or nugget of truth? I used to make it myself with vinegar, honey, and cumin. It's more of a sports drink than coffee, it's tasty, and horrible for your teeth.
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Feb 19, 2023 02:49
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it was the sterotypical soldiers drink, so politicians would performatively drink it in public to signify being a "man's man" and poo poo just like the Obama beer stunt or when everyone made fun of mitch mcconnel for drinking wine
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Feb 19, 2023 03:54
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 Love a good day at the races. Come on you greens!!!
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Feb 19, 2023 11:26
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Why would Luca Giordano (ca. 1660) imagine Chilon of Sparta as the ugliest human concievable ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilon_of_Sparta#/media/File:Giordano_-_Le_Philosophe_Chilon,_1660_vers.jpg Baron Porkface fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Feb 21, 2023 |
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Feb 21, 2023 03:27
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