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The aliens arrived, but it turns out they don't have any weapons. So they have been dropping balloons to get China and the US to destroy each other. It's so obvious.
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Feb 13, 2023 16:46
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Solkanar512 posted:No, you define your terms. You made the claim about a so-called “freak out”, provided basically nothing as far as evidence is concerned and kept on going. I would generally consider a full-court media press a "freak out."
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Feb 13, 2023 16:49
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The standard of evidence you're demanding we apply here (prove CNN and this unidentified member of Congress right) is very different from the standard of evidence you usually apply (the existence of a single Democratic socialist member of the local Seattle City council) Shouldn't we have some consistency in our standards of evidence? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 13, 2023 16:50
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Lumpy posted:The aliens arrived, but it turns out they don't have any weapons. So they have been dropping balloons to get China and the US to destroy each other. It's so obvious. This is loving stupid fearmongering and it makes us look weak. It's abundantly clear that they're dropping balloons because it's the earth's birthday and they wanted to throw us a surprise party.
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Feb 13, 2023 16:50
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Solkanar512 posted:No, you define your terms. You made the claim about a so-called “freak out”, provided basically nothing as far as evidence is concerned and kept on going. I did not make the claim initially, but if police departments are making a serious effort to convince citizens not to try and shoot down the balloon with small arms that does it for me. “Don’t shoot at the sky” was on nobody’s bingo card. Neither was right wing freaks speculating that this was some kind of bioweapon or gas dispersal system, a claim which while silly, did have a schoolbus sized thing you could point at in the skies above the country (which, again, please do not shoot at it) on anybody’s radar. We’re talking about a story that dominated both social media and news for several days, and which seems to be part of an ongoing thing nobody can accurately describe, so yeah, feels like we have easily cleared the bar, but it’s subjective, maybe you’re just way cooler than all of us and this is normal poo poo to you.
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Feb 13, 2023 16:50
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I'm applying the standard of evidence of believing this major media source and this anonymous Democratic Congressional representative what do you have to rebut them
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Feb 13, 2023 16:52
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If the first one turns out to really just be a weather balloon, a thing that still hasn't been disproven or fully denied, can it be a freak out then?
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Feb 13, 2023 16:52
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selec posted:I did not make the claim initially, but if police departments are making a serious effort to convince citizens not to try and shoot down the balloon with small arms that does it for me. On the other hand, they do that with drones and pretty much whatever else too.
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Feb 13, 2023 16:53
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They have fully denied the weather balloon and they're saying it was part of an ongoing campaign to floats spy balloons that's been going on for years
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Feb 13, 2023 16:53
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i can't find any polls on whether anyone is concerned with the balloon so ill just have to go by the media and politicians who help set the tempo for the nation and they seem to be freaking out
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Feb 13, 2023 16:53
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If there's nothing to freak out the about then the question is why are they lying to us and should we be freaked out about that
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Feb 13, 2023 16:54
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Harold Fjord posted:If we nationalize the industry are the standards applied internally still considered "regulations" or are they considered something else? They're still regulations, and the terrible environmental history of the USSR should be sufficient to evidence that the lack of a capitalist profit motive is not enough to ensure good regulations or that they'll be enforced. selec posted:I did not make the claim initially, but if police departments are making a serious effort to convince citizens not to try and shoot down the balloon with small arms that does it for me. “Don’t shoot at the sky” was on nobody’s bingo card. Neither was right wing freaks speculating that this was some kind of bioweapon or gas dispersal system, a claim which while silly, did have a schoolbus sized thing you could point at in the skies above the country (which, again, please do not shoot at it) on anybody’s radar. We’re talking about a story that dominated both social media and news for several days, and which seems to be part of an ongoing thing nobody can accurately describe, so yeah, feels like we have easily cleared the bar, but it’s subjective, maybe you’re just way cooler than all of us and this is normal poo poo to you. Americans will shoot at things in the sky even if they're obviously benign. The Goodyear blimp is shot relatively frequently. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 16:57
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You can't call it a freak out if we are in a constant state of melting down.
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Feb 13, 2023 17:01
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DeadlyMuffin posted:They're still regulations, and the terrible environmental history of the USSR should be sufficient to evidence that the lack of a capitalist profit motive is not enough to ensure good regulations or that they'll be enforced. What do Soviet environmental regulations (or lack thereof) in the 70's have to do with the capture of the US Regulatory system by the industries they were established to regulate in TYOOL 2023 other than to make a specious whataboutism towards those attacking the US from its left?
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Feb 13, 2023 17:03
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selec posted:I did not make the claim initially, but if police departments are making a serious effort to convince citizens not to try and shoot down the balloon with small arms that does it for me. “Don’t shoot at the sky” was on nobody’s bingo card. Neither was right wing freaks speculating that this was some kind of bioweapon or gas dispersal system, a claim which while silly, did have a schoolbus sized thing you could point at in the skies above the country (which, again, please do not shoot at it) on anybody’s radar. We’re talking about a story that dominated both social media and news for several days, and which seems to be part of an ongoing thing nobody can accurately describe, so yeah, feels like we have easily cleared the bar, but it’s subjective, maybe you’re just way cooler than all of us and this is normal poo poo to you. Thank you for clarifying! I didn't realize you were including the whole time period as the "freak out".
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Feb 13, 2023 17:04
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Charlz Guybon posted:Military specifically said these last three objects were not balloons. That's not the actual quote quote:“I'm not going to categorize them as balloons. We're calling them objects for a reason,” VanHerck said when asked about the physical characteristics of the objects. They're almost certainly balloons Piell fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 17:06
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If this continues for another page then I'm going to freak out!
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Feb 13, 2023 17:06
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Lib and let die posted:What do Soviet environmental regulations (or lack thereof) in the 70's have to do with the capture of the US Regulatory system by the industries they were established to regulate in TYOOL 2023 other than to make a specious whataboutism towards those attacking the US from its left? I mean she's right, you can't just end capitalism and call it a day you need the dictatorship of the proletariat to enforce laws that are good for all of us. Not having to compete against capitalism, which will always harm its people to profit helps a lot in achieving that.
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Feb 13, 2023 17:09
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Harold Fjord posted:I mean she's right, you can't just end capitalism and call it a day you need the dictatorship of the proletariat to enforce laws that are good for all of us. Not having to compete against capitalism, which will always harm its people to profit helps a lot in achieving that. Yeah, I get the point but it leaves me at an "ok, and?". It's letting perfect be the enemy of good. You would need to show that nationalizing railroads and removing profit motive would hurt regulations or make the chance of environmental disaster worse in opposition of those who think it would make it better, not just that removing profit motive from consideration doesn't prevent all accidents.
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Feb 13, 2023 17:18
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Lib and let die posted:What do Soviet environmental regulations (or lack thereof) in the 70's have to do with the capture of the US Regulatory system by the industries they were established to regulate in TYOOL 2023 other than to make a specious whataboutism towards those attacking the US from its left? When the argument is that the root cause of the problem is capitalism, like in these posts: BRJurgis posted:A broad wet brush, but could one just say that regulations and oversight always cater to money over other matters, relatively? Regulatory capture isn't a new topic here, nor is the importance of commerce to every level of power including Fister Roboto posted:Yeah, it would be more accurate to sat that all regulation is susceptible to monetary influence. In a capitalist society, it's kind of hard to argue that money isn't a factor at all in these things. it's relevant to point out that removing that motive doesn't solve problem alone. I like this approach: selec posted:This is the opposite of what I want so it feels like you’re making up a guy up to get mad at. Whatever the form of government, citizens need to be wary of people putting their thumbs on the regulatory scale.
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Feb 13, 2023 17:21
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It's literary acid raining on Ohio yet people are "freaked out" over surveillance balloons?
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Feb 13, 2023 17:22
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Harold Fjord posted:I mean she's right, you can't just end capitalism and call it a day you need the dictatorship of the proletariat to enforce laws that are good for all of us. Not having to compete against capitalism, which will always harm its people to profit helps a lot in achieving that. This is also overly reductive though, because regulations that "are good for all of us" also fail for reasons not directly related to capital. For example, many of the climate change policies are straight up hated by huge majorities of people (the end of gas burning stoves is a very obvious one, but also things like automatic daylight dimming, occupancy-controlled power outlets, etc).
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Feb 13, 2023 17:24
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davecrazy posted:It's literary acid raining on Ohio yet people are "freaked out" over surveillance balloons?
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Feb 13, 2023 17:24
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DeadlyMuffin posted:When the argument is that the root cause of the problem is capitalism, like in these posts: You are aware of course that Marx saw Capitalism as a necessary interstitial state to Socialism, right? You wouldn't be doing something so intellectually irresponsible as simply presuming that what you've heard about Marxism filtered through various bad-faith mediators to come to a conclusion, right? Marx and other various leftist political theorists (Keynes, for example) all saw Capitalism as a necessary function to achieve socialism and beyond - Russia was very much a capitalist state attempting to transform to a more Socialist state in the time period you're discussing. The United States is making no such effort to move towards socialism at a macro scale, so I'm still uncertain what your "b-b-b-ut soviet russia 50 years ago!" is supposed to rebuke. Papercut posted:This is also overly reductive though, because regulations that "are good for all of us" also fail for reasons not directly related to capital. For example, many of the climate change policies are straight up hated by huge majorities of people (the end of gas burning stoves is a very obvious one, but also things like automatic daylight dimming, occupancy-controlled power outlets, etc). This excludes the part of our media apparatus where the vast majority of the media landscape is owned by massive private capital stakeholders, who have a financial stake in ginning up environmental reform as culture war battlefronts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 13, 2023 17:27
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Papercut posted:This is also overly reductive though, because regulations that "are good for all of us" also fail for reasons not directly related to capital. For example, many of the climate change policies are straight up hated by huge majorities of people (the end of gas burning stoves is a very obvious one, but also things like automatic daylight dimming, occupancy-controlled power outlets, etc). Those are due to capital too, though. The gas stove thing is a capitalist struggle. Nothing that happens inside our culture is outside of capitalism, because culture is downstream from lower case P politics. The structures of political economy dictate literally every facet of your life, that’s how it is, and attempts to parse out apolitical sections of very obviously political debates strikes me as absurd What’s Waterism. All of culture, all of it, is downstream from politics.
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Feb 13, 2023 17:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:If the first one turns out to really just be a weather balloon, a thing that still hasn't been disproven or fully denied, can it be a freak out then? I mean it hasn't been disproven it's a child's birthday balloon by this standard either, because the differences between that/a weather balloon/what was shot down are about the same.
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Feb 13, 2023 17:33
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I am curious if anyone knows what Canada's thoughts are regarding this, since, from what I can tell, for some of these, Canada's air space has to have also been violated.
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Feb 13, 2023 17:47
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Veryslightlymad posted:I am curious if anyone knows what Canada's thoughts are regarding this, since, from what I can tell, for some of these, Canada's air space has to have also been violated. We had the States shoot down something that apparently wasn't the same as the first one (they're calling it 'cylindrical and smaller than the suspected Chinese balloon') over the Yukon by asking through NORAD, but it's not getting a lot of play on the news except as 'the Americans are yelling about these things'. The government quote from our Defense Minister is “There is no reason to believe that the impact of the object in Canadian territory is of any public concern." Edit: vvvv yeah that, but the US is being much louder about it than Canada is. Prism fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 17:52
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Veryslightlymad posted:I am curious if anyone knows what Canada's thoughts are regarding this, since, from what I can tell, for some of these, Canada's air space has to have also been violated. Trudeau had requested the US to shoot an object down a couple days ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/11/us/politics/unidentified-object-canada-alaska-pentagon.html
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Feb 13, 2023 17:53
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North American air defence is a bit more unified since NORAD is a buddy thing. Allowing US planes to chase objects over Canada is part of the deal to make it smoother and less reliant on geographical boundaries. Canadian fighters would also come over US soil (and have done so) to do the same if need be. Currently just, not to speculate too much, the state of the Canadian Air Force is a bit ehhhhh and their legacy Hornets are essentially what your neighbor's kid's 1994 Toyota Corolla that they are totally gonna fix is like.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:02
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Vahakyla posted:North American air defence is a bit more unified since NORAD is a buddy thing. Allowing US planes to chase objects over Canada is part of the deal to make it smoother and less reliant on geographical boundaries. Canadian fighters would also come over US soil (and have done so) to do the same if need be. Currently just, not to speculate too much, the state of the Canadian Air Force is a bit ehhhhh and their legacy Hornets are essentially what your neighbor's kid's 1994 Toyota Corolla that they are totally gonna fix is like. It's a bit, eh?
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Feb 13, 2023 18:03
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Lumpy posted:The aliens arrived, but it turns out they don't have any weapons. So they have been dropping balloons to get China and the US to destroy each other. It's so obvious. This is basically the plot of a late-series Animorphs book, minus the balloons.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:17
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Gumball Gumption posted:A lot of that seems to be internet chatter from local residents who are terrified of the local effect this is going to have. I'm not surprised people are scared and stupid after this and it seems disingenuous to lump the scared and stupid in with the handful of people like MTG who are producing ideologically motivated hysteria. I think she's lying, I think the purple who are posting about fish in local rivers all being dead and this being a lot worse than officials are saying are at worst dumb and scared and at best a primary source we should listen to. I just hate how the media is making it so much worse for people there. Telling them that the fish are dying because the HCl that was released is going into the rivers and making them more acidic than the fish can handle (which is not very acidic, mind you) and it'll soon dilute out into neutrality is something that they can understand. They'll be pissed but they aren't going to be waiting for death because they were within 100 miles of the event. But instead we have people looking at SDS for the first time and screaming "it's burning and turning it into phosgene, it killed thousands in WWI, everyone is hosed." which is (a) bullshit and (b) not helpful. It just amazes me how many people want this to be so much worse than it actually is. This is probably an insane thing to say but it's like they True Crime-d a chemical spill. VVV It's a concern, but when I'm talking about "want this to be worse" I'm talking about the people all over the net convinced that the entire Midwest is going to be tumor ridden for decades and that the cleanup crews were suicide liquidators in the same way as Cherenobyl. Like I've seen many, many people convinced that concentrated hydrochloric acid is going to start raining from the sky and dissolving anyone that gets caught in it any second. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 18:26
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No one wants the event to be worse than it actually is. people are afraid that the railroad company that subcontracted out the testing that is being done and reported to the EPA may have hired unscrupulous contractors who are acting in the railroads interest and downplaying what will eventually become known through cancer cluster epidemiology
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Feb 13, 2023 18:29
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Harold Fjord posted:No one wants the event to be worse than it actually is. people are afraid that the railroad company that subcontracted out the testing that is being done and reported to the EPA may have hired unscrupulous contractors who are acting in the railroads interest and downplaying what will eventually become known through cancer cluster epidemiology
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Feb 13, 2023 18:33
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CuddleCryptid posted:It just amazes me how many people want this to be so much worse than it actually is. This is probably an insane thing to say but it's like they True Crime-d a chemical spill. In the 24/7 media, all emergencies are too slow/too fast/not doing enough/doing too much. With a lack of information people fill in the blanks to fit their narrative.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:34
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Mooseontheloose posted:In the 24/7 media, all emergencies are too slow/too fast/not doing enough/doing too much. With a lack of information people fill in the blanks to fit their narrative.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:36
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Vahakyla posted:North American air defence is a bit more unified since NORAD is a buddy thing. Allowing US planes to chase objects over Canada is part of the deal to make it smoother and less reliant on geographical boundaries. Canadian fighters would also come over US soil (and have done so) to do the same if need be. Currently just, not to speculate too much, the state of the Canadian Air Force is a bit ehhhhh and their legacy Hornets are essentially what your neighbor's kid's 1994 Toyota Corolla that they are totally gonna fix is like. It's fine! We agreed to buy some F-35s. I'm sure there will be no problems at all with this plane.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:36
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CuddleCryptid posted:I just hate how the media is making it so much worse for people there. Telling them that the fish are dying because the HCl that was released is going into the rivers and making them more acidic than the fish can handle (which is not very acidic, mind you) and it'll soon dilute out into neutrality is something that they can understand. They'll be pissed but they aren't going to be waiting for death because they were within 100 miles of the event. This reminded me of an Event that happened last year in Austin, thank you. Many fish died after a release in the river from a Samsung plant. It may be interesting to look back and see how different this was handled in the media, particularly noting the differences in magnitude of release, severity of impact, and ability to perceive spread: Samsung Austin Spilled 763,000 Gallons of Acid Waste Into Local Ecosystem www.tomshardware.com posted:A report published by an Environmental Officer working for Austin City Council (PDF) reveals that there has been a massive spill of chemicals into a nearby stormwater pond, which feeds a tributary of the Harris Branch Creek in Northeast Austin. Up to 763,000 gallons of acidic waste was discharged into the pond, flowing into a nearby tributary over 100+ days. The result of the pollution, mostly sulfuric acid waste, isn't that surprising, with the Watershed Protection Department (WPD) staff reporting "virtually no surviving aquatic life" throughout the affected waterway. Samsung Spills Toxic Water, Wins Texas Environmental Prize www.texasmonthly.com posted:While a roomful of diners polished off their cheesecakes during a gala banquet inside the Austin Convention Center earlier this month, the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality handed out its annual top honors—the Governor’s Texas Environmental Excellence Awards. In a recorded video, Governor Greg Abbott praised the winners, in nine categories, for giving “their time, their talent, their treasure to the high calling of protecting our state’s natural resources.”
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Feb 13, 2023 18:36
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cat botherer posted:Yes. It is very rational to be concerned about this. It is rational to not trust the government's handling. It is especially rational to be worried about another event like this in the future, given that RR companies continue cutting corneres with safety and labor. It's bizarre to cast concern over this quite huge event as fear mongering - but of course doing so is precisely in capital's interests. To be fair, fear mongering is ALSO happening. Republicans will always openly embrace hypocrisy to attack Biden over stuff they would have done worse.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:36
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