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There are several reasons people are freaked out. We haven't shot anything down over our airspace in a very long time. Now we have 3 in a week. 4 if you include Canada's request. Plus a few other items: 1). After the original balloon shoot down, allegedly our radar was filtering out certain things. Likely these new objects are being picked up by the radar adjustments. 2) The head of NORAD said he won't rule out extraterestrials. He said he'd leave that up to the Intel community. It is concerning to some, that they aren't coming out explicitly and saying we know what these are and we took care of it. He noted that some of the objects they couldn't determine how it was flying. When the military says that openly, it is concerning. 3) CNN reporting yesterday before the Huron shoot down said that some, but not all pilots reported their sensors were impacted by the events. We know of 3 different aircraft used in the shootdown activity, but not necessarily the act itself: F-15s, F-22s, and F-35s. We don't know which aircraft had radar issues. If it was the F-35 that would be very concerning as it has the most advanced sensor suite of all of them. It might not be aliens, but I don't think the last 3 objects were balloons. It might be the Chinese skunk works equivalent. If so, how long have they been in our airspace? Months? Years? Also, there's been a several major air disasters(i.e. U.S. Tenerife disaster level) that have been moments from happening. I'm sure the US doesn't want planes colliding mid air with unknown objects in their flight path, UFO/Chinese/ or whatever. White house is going to take questions on the flying objects soon. Zotix fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 18:36
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Harold Fjord posted:To be fair, fear mongering is ALSO happening. Republicans will always openly embrace hypocrisy to attack Biden over stuff they would have done worse.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:39
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selec posted:This is the opposite of what I want so it feels like you’re making up a guy up to get mad at.
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Feb 13, 2023 18:43
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mawarannahr posted:This reminded me of an Event that happened last year in Austin, thank you. Many fish died after a release in the river from a Samsung plant. It may be interesting to look back and see how different this was handled in the media, particularly noting the differences in magnitude of release, severity of impact, and ability to perceive spread: Interesting find. I do wonder how things will shake out coming down once the EPA tests come back. From what I've seen online with residents testing the pH of standing water around their area it's coming down at around 5 pH, which isn't very acidic, especially on a log scale. At the same time, fish prefer alkaline environs, so it might be enough. But if the river is flowing past the release site then it's not unreasonable to think that it is more highly concentrated upstream and effecting the fish downstream. I'm not surprised that they still won an award afterwards though. The history of the chemical industry is just one gigantic waste release after another, *especially* for hazardous materials that are costly to dispose of properly. It just tends to get pushed to the side as a "whoopsie, but hey it's okay now right?" CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 18:47
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There’s so many factors at play (time of year, temperatures, pre-existing environmental stressors, etc.), that we should probably wait until all information is available before speculating too much on what the full environmental impact has been from the release. Oh and most home pH testing kits are bullshit, so if that’s what is being used, I’d not put too much faith in them.
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Feb 13, 2023 19:27
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While we wait to see what the full impacts are, should people living in East Palestine be encouraged to return home and assume that everything is fine or should the state be paying to house the entire population of the affected regions in areas known to be safe?
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Feb 13, 2023 19:32
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celadon posted:While we wait to see what the full impacts are, should people living in East Palestine be encouraged to return home and assume that everything is fine or should the state be paying to house the entire population of the affected regions in areas known to be safe? Depends entirely on what the contamination levels for soil and water come back at. If the vast majority of the hazardous materials got burned off its probably fine. But that will depend on what comes back. Ultimately the issue that the EPA is going to have is that no matter what they say people are going to assume the actual value is ten times higher. VVV sure, I mean more in the sense that if your target is slightly more alkaline then the effect is more dramatic when you are slightly more acidic. But I won't claim to be a fish expert. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 19:44
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CuddleCryptid posted:Interesting find. I do wonder how things will shake out coming down once the EPA tests come back. From what I've seen online with residents testing the pH of standing water around their area it's coming down at around 5 pH, which isn't very acidic, especially on a log scale. At the same time, fish prefer alkaline environs, so it might be enough. But if the river is flowing past the release site then it's not unreasonable to think that it is more highly concentrated upstream and effecting the fish downstream. Edit: what I'm saying is people are probably not going to learn much meaningful by checking the pH of water in their neighborhood edit2: you'd also need to know stuff like the buffer capacity of the water, titratable acidity etc. The pH by itself is not all that meaningful. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 19:47
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DeadlyMuffin posted:When the argument is that the root cause of the problem is capitalism, like in these posts: The fact that the USSR had its own problems is not a refutation of the arguments being made. Believing that the root cause of a problem is capitalism does not imply that you also believe that communism (and specifically only the communism practiced by the USSR) is a perfect solution. This is just whataboutism.
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Feb 13, 2023 20:31
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Fister Roboto posted:The fact that the USSR had its own problems is not a refutation of the arguments being made. Believing that the root cause of a problem is capitalism does not imply that you also believe that communism (and specifically only the communism practiced by the USSR) is a perfect solution. This is just whataboutism. Saying that capitalism can't be the root cause of something that exists in every alternative system is not whataboutism, it is pointing out that the actual root cause goes deeper and is inherent in every one of those systems.
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Feb 13, 2023 20:41
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Nenonen posted:Saying that capitalism can't be the root cause of something that exists in every alternative system is not whataboutism, it is pointing out that the actual root cause goes deeper and is inherent in every one of those systems. It's mostly arguing the semantics over root cause vs. "force that strongly influences". At that point we might as well just go full reductionists and say the root cause is humans because all human systems can fail. You're not wrong, you're technically incredibly right. But it doesn't provide much to discuss or change
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Feb 13, 2023 20:50
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celadon posted:While we wait to see what the full impacts are, should people living in East Palestine be encouraged to return home and assume that everything is fine or should the state be paying to house the entire population of the affected regions in areas known to be safe? There's some understanding of how the chemicals in question break down and their relative hazards and persistence. Not every spill- including ones of substances that are very harmful on exposure- requires creating an exclusion zone.
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Feb 13, 2023 20:50
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's mostly arguing the semantics over root cause vs. "force that strongly influences". At that point we might as well just go full reductionists and say the root cause is humans because all human systems can fail. You're not wrong, you're technically incredibly right. But it doesn't provide much to discuss or change Pinning the "root cause" label on something that isn't actually the root cause is actively counterproductive, because it draws attention away from the actual root causes. This isn't just semantics: it's important to have a clear and accurate understanding of the causes of problems in order to be able to best address them.
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Feb 13, 2023 21:14
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Nenonen posted:Saying that capitalism can't be the root cause of something that exists in every alternative system is not whataboutism, it is pointing out that the actual root cause goes deeper and is inherent in every one of those systems. Main Paineframe posted:Pinning the "root cause" label on something that isn't actually the root cause is actively counterproductive, because it draws attention away from the actual root causes. This isn't just semantics: it's important to have a clear and accurate understanding of the causes of problems in order to be able to best address them. Then what is the root cause that applies to both the US and the USSR?
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Feb 13, 2023 21:18
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Fister Roboto posted:The fact that the USSR had its own problems is not a refutation of the arguments being made. Believing that the root cause of a problem is capitalism does not imply that you also believe that communism (and specifically only the communism practiced by the USSR) is a perfect solution. This is just whataboutism. Not at all, it's a counterexample that shows blanket blaming capitalism is nonsensical here. If you had a specific regulation you were referring to that was lobbied for by the railroads then I'd agree with you, but you aren't making that argument. Your argument is easy to poke holes in with a counterexample because it is so broad. Whataboutism is pointing at something completely unrelated, but in this case we're talking about environmental regulations and it's directly applicable. Main Paineframe posted:Pinning the "root cause" label on something that isn't actually the root cause is actively counterproductive, because it draws attention away from the actual root causes. This isn't just semantics: it's important to have a clear and accurate understanding of the causes of problems in order to be able to best address them. Exactly this.
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Feb 13, 2023 21:53
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Not at all, it's a counterexample that shows blanket blaming capitalism is nonsensical here. But that doesn't show that capitalism isn't the problem. All it does is show that similar problems still occurred in the USSR. There's no contradiction there, because different causes can still have the same effects. We could also have a whole other conversation about the comparative magnitude of environmental disasters in the US and USSR and how they relate to their respective policies. You're doing the same thing that the other poster I was arguing with was, and putting words in my mouth and assuming things about my argument. All I said in the post you quoted was that, due to our capitalist system, our regulatory agencies are susceptible to monetary influence. I made zero mention of other systems or their supposed immunity to monetary influence. Do you disagree with this statement? Why or why not? And if you think that it's nonsensical to blame capitalism, then what do you blame?
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Feb 13, 2023 22:19
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Fister Roboto posted:Then what is the root cause that applies to both the US and the USSR? Greed (the general kind). Ignorance of the causes of environmental degradation. The ability to exploit a region and foist the environmental results on it, for a perceived gain somewhere else. (Such as industrializing a region to power a distant city.) In certain circumstances, the belief that resources are endless or that Nature will provide.
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Feb 13, 2023 22:22
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Fister Roboto posted:Then what is the root cause that applies to both the US and the USSR? Doing things safely is often more difficult or time-consuming than cutting corners, and human beings are notoriously bad at considering the risks of highly improbable events. Combine those two together and you get the root of a lot of these issues. The profit motive tends to incentivize corner-cutting and exacerbate such risks, of course. But even without that, there's no shortage of people who've been hurt or killed because they were just gonna do this one thing and it was only gonna take a minute and they felt it just wasn't worth the trouble of donning full PPE or following the full safety protocols. PPE noncompliance is actually a serious issue - PPE is often uncomfortable and difficult to work in, so it's tempting to skip it if you think you can get away with it. On the larger systematic level, it's worth remembering that even a non-profit state-owned entity has a finite budget. Building equipment to a high level of safety is expensive, and that's not a fiction invented by capitalists to oppress the poor: it represents the labor, resources, and industrial output required to produce higher-quality equipment with more redundancy, fail-safes, and the like. Even if they don't have to run at a profit, there's still a limit to how much they're permitted to spend. Ultimately, the core issue is (again) a failure to accurately assess and properly account for safety and reliability risks, either in the budgeting process or in the design process. While the profit motive tends to encourage such misjudgements, they'd still exist even without it. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 22:46
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Fister Roboto posted:But that doesn't show that capitalism isn't the problem. All it does is show that similar problems still occurred in the USSR. There's no contradiction there, because different causes can still have the same effects. We could also have a whole other conversation about the comparative magnitude of environmental disasters in the US and USSR and how they relate to their respective policies. Fell Fire and Main Painframe have captured the point I was trying to make.
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Feb 13, 2023 23:14
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Main Paineframe posted:Doing things safely is often more difficult or time-consuming than cutting corners, and human beings are notoriously bad at considering the risks of highly improbable events. Combine those two together and you get the root of a lot of these issues. Just like Gumball Gumption said, saying "well humans are just bad at assessing risk" is technically true, but it's uselessly broad and doesn't really have a direct solution. And in this very post you say that the profit motive of capitalism exacerbates that problem. Maybe that doesn't rise to the standard necessary to qualify as a root cause, but I think it's fair to say that capitalism is a large contributing factor here at least. I don't disagree with anything else you said, obviously other economic systems are going to be constrained by physical reality and affected by human behavior as well. The difference is that capitalism is specifically inequitable in its distribution of resources and management of risk. To put it another way: under communism, it's a bug; under capitalism, it's a feature. Fell Fire posted:Greed (the general kind). Like I said above, all of these things are permitted, exacerbated, encouraged, or outright glorified under capitalism. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 13, 2023 |
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Feb 13, 2023 23:18
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Fister Roboto posted:Just like Gumball Gumption said, saying "well humans are just bad at assessing risk" is technically true, but it's uselessly broad and doesn't really have a direct solution. And in this very post you say that the profit motive of capitalism exacerbates that problem. Maybe that doesn't rise to the standard necessary to qualify as a root cause, but I think it's fair to say that capitalism is a large contributing factor here at least. I don't disagree with anything else you said, obviously other economic systems are going to be constrained by physical reality as well. The difference is that capitalism is specifically inequitable in its distribution of resources and management of risk. To put it another way: under communism, it's a bug; under capitalism, it's a feature. You have yet to point at a particular regulation in this case, so you have failed to demonstrate that capitalism is a major factor here. It's a bit baffling to see you complain about something being uselessly broad when your entire argument is so nonspecific. You seem to be arguing that this wouldn't be an issue under a communist government but there are obviously counterexamples of bad regulation under a communist government for the reasons outlined above so without something more concrete from you it's difficult to accept the argument. If you point at a specific regulation you think is at fault here, you may be right!
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Feb 13, 2023 23:26
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DeadlyMuffin posted:
I am not and I don't know how many times I have to say this.
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Feb 13, 2023 23:56
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Fister Roboto posted:Just like Gumball Gumption said, saying "well humans are just bad at assessing risk" is technically true, but it's uselessly broad and doesn't really have a direct solution. Why exactly does it need to have a direct solution? There are lots of problems that are really difficult and not amenable to fixing with One Weird Trick. Fister Roboto posted:To put it another way: under communism, it's a bug; under capitalism, it's a feature. Do you have examples of how communist governments in industrialized countries have managed this kind of risk better than non communist governments? Specific regulations would be best.
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Feb 13, 2023 23:59
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Fister Roboto posted:The difference is that capitalism is specifically inequitable in its distribution of resources and management of risk. To put it another way: under communism, it's a bug; under capitalism, it's a feature. Any system where there are finite resources and unknown safety risks are going to be making the exact same calculation, communist or capitalist, and are just as likely to get it wrong for the sake of 'optimizing' resource use. If you want to tweak the system to make it safer for people, you need to make it accountable to more people or groups. Democracy is probably what you're looking for to improve regulation. Free market capitalist corporations, nationalized industries, and communist states are all facing the same set of incentives to cut corners to maximize resource utilization. In all the cases you'll need someone looking over their shoulder- a democratic regulations body or an authoritarian public safety committee- just something to check the dehumanizing bureaucratic resource management that can crop up in any system. Those checks might be bad and corrupted under free market capitalism, but they're just as likely to not exist under authoritarian communism. Saying it's bad because of capitalism misses the point. It's bad because of dehumanizing bureaucratic resource management. That's something that won't be fixed by getting rid of capitalism, and can be fixed under capitalism. (Unless you think democracy isn't possible under capitalism, which you know, maybe, but seems to be a different level of discussion at that point.)
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Feb 14, 2023 00:18
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celadon posted:While we wait to see what the full impacts are, should people living in East Palestine be encouraged to return home and assume that everything is fine or should the state be paying to house the entire population of the affected regions in areas known to be safe? If i had friends over yonder I'd tell them to set up a gofundme to finance staying the gently caress out of the area for weeks more, especially while people are reporting throat and lung irritation Even if everything went mostly right with the initial containment operation, it's still one pathetically underfunded department of a corruption hollowed system stumbling in to handle the inevitable outcome of other corrupt deregulation in a system (private rail freight) that was allowed to go hog wild since 2016. It might take a while before we get the full picture of what being there means to your long term health Still amazed this all happened right after I watched white noise because it's still right on the loving nose
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Feb 14, 2023 01:19
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Are we all still just ignoring all the loving site test data from EPA that's been in the thread for pages? Do we need to relink it every other post or something? https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=15933
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Feb 14, 2023 01:25
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White noise was filmed there lol
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Feb 14, 2023 01:26
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Terror Sweat posted:White noise was filmed there lol yeah I just saw a CNN? article about it (in the course of investigating the usual "nobody is talking about this!" claims floating around) cnn, ABC, BBC, new york times, and the guardian are covering it in some detail, at minimum
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Feb 14, 2023 01:32
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Discendo Vox posted:Are we all still just ignoring all the loving site test data from EPA that's been in the thread for pages? Do we need to relink it every other post or something? I actually missed it so thanks Seems... reasonably handled so far? in the air exposure sense, afaict the water situation isn't fully under independent monitoring yet
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Feb 14, 2023 01:36
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I actually missed it so thanks https://epa.ohio.gov/monitor-pollution/pollution-issues/east-palestine
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Feb 14, 2023 01:37
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Oh good, the water results are back. And they have been back for days. I saw the in house air samples and figured they were less critical than the water ones since most people have their houses sealed in February, but looks like the water is basically clean as well.
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Feb 14, 2023 01:45
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CuddleCryptid posted:Oh good, the water results are back. And they have been back for days. I like the "immediate remediation" note where they scrambled to divert water / chemical leakage immediately around the spill so as to minimize further ground contamination. And yeah I'm glad the in house samples seem clear, but as someone who does not reside in a house there I'm honestly more interested in the (not completely conclusive but goodish) outside air samples.
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Feb 14, 2023 01:50
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Uh oh, looks like there was another derailment. Good thing this is not indicative of any systemic problems! https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1625253862100594712
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Feb 14, 2023 01:54
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That part is probably the least surprising given the initial response, and something like vinyl chloride or burn remnant probably gets dissipated to nothing pretty easy in that medium
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Feb 14, 2023 01:55
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cat botherer posted:Uh oh, looks like there was another derailment. Good thing this is not indicative of any systemic problems! appears to be vehicle based, so any systemic problems here are with road design (which I have never noticed you give a poo poo about) or the trucking industry (which yes capitalism bad etc etc)
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Feb 14, 2023 01:57
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my suspicion is that road design would not have helped much with "dumbass truck driver attempts to outrun train, dies", but hey, I'm not well studied on train crossings, maybe I'm wrong
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Feb 14, 2023 02:09
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it's actual literal conspiracy theory nuttery to take some rando Twitter posts and decide they're evidence of a vast media and government coverup of a Chernobyl-like mass poisoning event I haven't seen anyone articulate that explicitly but a few folks are kind of toeing in that direction. I beg you to think about your reasoning and where you're getting your information. edit: like, it can be bad without it being a grand conspiracy. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 02:30
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cat botherer posted:Uh oh, looks like there was another derailment. Good thing this is not indicative of any systemic problems! Looks like deadly train crashes are going to become our new school shootings (not as a replacement).
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Feb 14, 2023 02:36
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Chinese balloon attacks on our rail system are increasing our probation rates to catastrophic scales, ensuring we will not have sufficient posting readiness for the invasion proper. In all seriousness though, at minimum I have a hard time trusting state government relief efforts or public statements. It hardly requires citations to assert that state governments are overworked, under-resourced, and under-achieving.
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Feb 14, 2023 02:40
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I have noticed an uptick in people posting about the East Palestine derailment... and posting extremely false statements about it, like "they" ( I think the poster meant the townsfolk? ) don't know what chemicals spilled from the tankers, and that all the animals in the area died. It took five whole seconds for me to look up the derailment and see what spilled ( mostly vinyl chloride, though Norfolk Southern sent a list of everything on the train to the EPA and there were four other chemicals that were spilled ) and while there has been cases of dead animals, saying that every animal in the area died isn't true.
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