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Eric the Mauve posted:Right now I'm participating in the hiring process for entry level (like $14/hour) staff and you would not believe how bad the resumes are. Like google docs has templates that just prompt you for info and make the resume for you, how can you make it look this bad and sound this much like it was dictated by a second grader. Nobody knows how to communicate. Nobody thinks about information. Nobody looks at a resource they created and says "If I didn't know anything, could I extract the information I need from it?" About 15 years ago (  ) I worked at a small call center of about 8 people. Broadly, we had to call out to various businesses and make note of certain practices and times, and we had to cover for people when they were out. They did this by a shared Excel sheet with everyone getting single pages. These things were a disaster. Cells everywhere, multiple lines of info in cells, mysterious merged cells and word wrap, disorganized parenthetical information, even different fonts and colors on some. This is probably because the information slowly got added to over time but no one ever thought to update them. In my first 6 months I eventually said "Eff this nonsense" and spent a slow afternoon making my page nice and neat with column headers and row labels. Getting some of the weird parenthetical info was a bit challenging but the main stuff like phones and faxes were much better. I let the other 7 employees know that their own pages could be improved since we all need to use them; I don't think I was condescending but this was forever ago. Only one looked at it and said, "Wow, this is great" and copied it. The other 6 did not see they point. They were literally incapable of realizing that they only understood their own information through continual use and that it was not obvious to others. "I know what everything here means, therefore my system is perfect."The number of people who are like this is staggering. I have since changed to an career in engineering and the proportion is not much better. It might even be worse with "smart" "professionals" like software devs.
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Feb 14, 2023 10:41
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Communication takes work, ideally by both the communicator and the listener. Most people are lazy as gently caress and think that they aren't the problem in a miscommunication. i.e. "I gave him information he needed; its not my fault if he didn't listen." "I have no idea what she's going on about; it must not be important if she can't communicate it clearly." Both of these people will unironically put "communication skills" on their resumes. There's also attribution bias at work. "If things go well, it's because I made them work out. If things go poorly, it's because other people hosed up." Applies to communications too.
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Feb 14, 2023 12:35
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phone interview done, thank you email sent, phew. I wasn’t ready for the salary discussion and I feel like I flubbed the “why do you want to leave” bit, and talked and talked and ugh. I’m like 10 percent sure I’ll get this, not even factoring in the photoshop test yay. At least they were up front about language requirements. whatever. practice I guess.
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Feb 15, 2023 14:54
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Going into every job interview I have with the mindset that it doesn't matter if I get a job or not has made me a much better interviewer. Obviously I still take that poo poo seriously but it helps with the nerves of an exciting prospect. One of the last jobs I took was with a company I very much didn't think I had a shot with and I ended doubling my salary (from 40k to 80k), but I would have been fine walking from it too. Really though, salary ranges are one of the first things I try to get out of the way just to make sure both parties are on the same page. Once it's something you're comfortable with, take an interview and then start negotiations when they throw out offers. Also never never never forget to fight for non-monetary benefits like PTO, WFH stipends, poo poo like that.
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Feb 15, 2023 16:35
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I totally understand the "get salary out of the way", and if you need that stressor out of the way you should do that. However, in general a company is expending way more resources hiring than you are interviewing. The further down the path of interviewing you can get, the more pot committed the company is going to feel about the time you've spent and the less they will typically want to haggle over the last few %. Ideally, you'd want to negotiate salary after they've fallen in love and decided you'll solve all their problems. That is just in general though, and lots of situations call for different approaches, of course.
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Feb 15, 2023 16:40
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Yeah I’ve always had salary second interview at the earliest, but thankfully we matched pretty well, phew. If I stay where I’m at, I’m absolutely leveraging this. it was also greatly validating that my skills and my current position are indeed transferable. That’s something I’ve had issue with as my position is something with a title that’s so goddamn misleading and means different things in different industries. Even if I bombed it, which I feel I totally did, I’m happy I didn’t feel as nervous as I’ve felt before.
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Feb 15, 2023 16:48
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Sometimes loving up an interview is exactly what you need to do to ace the next one. Don't worry about it.
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Feb 15, 2023 17:04
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Interview update: Follow up interview with skills test. I, uh, 
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Feb 17, 2023 16:28
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Got a resume question. I had been a manager but our company is struggling so there's been lots of reorgs and streamlines, with a bunch of teams getting dissolved and the now excess managers (including me) getting offered either a non-management demotion or a layoff with token severance. I took the step back position and hate it, the company continues to struggle, so I'm looking to jump ship and get back into a leadership role. Any suggestions on how to best document the backwards career step on my resume?
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Feb 17, 2023 22:31
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Semi-Protato posted:Got a resume question. I had been a manager but our company is struggling so there's been lots of reorgs and streamlines, with a bunch of teams getting dissolved and the now excess managers (including me) getting offered either a non-management demotion or a layoff with token severance. I took the step back position and hate it, the company continues to struggle, so I'm looking to jump ship and get back into a leadership role. Any suggestions on how to best document the backwards career step on my resume? How long ago was this? Is not documenting it an option?
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Feb 18, 2023 00:13
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I would probably just not mention it if it was recent enough, though if the duties make things look better, mix them in with the manager stuff. You might want to verbally mention it in an interview though, just to cover yourself.
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Feb 18, 2023 00:25
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Lockback posted:You might want to verbally mention it in an interview though, just to cover yourself. Yea if its less than a year I'd mention it along the lines of...not bad mouthing them but they missed X goal and that means they laid off a poo poo load of people including all of my direct reports and asked me to stay. I'm staying until a better offer comes through. The tone here matters a lot. You never wanna seem sour about your current job but there's value in being able to signal that your current employer hosed up and you know better than to hang around without saying any of that. The thought that should be planted is that YOU were too valuable to lose despite 20% of the company being walked out and that its very likely you'll be a manager again in no time because you're so valuable. If it's clear from public info that story doesn't make sense don't do this. EDIT: If it happened in early 2021 and the company's stock is doing great, this becomes a head scratcher.
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Feb 18, 2023 00:34
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CarForumPoster posted:How long ago was this? Is not documenting it an option? It just happened, the change was effective 1/1/23. Lockback posted:I would probably just not mention it if it was recent enough, though if the duties make things look better, mix them in with the manager stuff. Makes sense. Do you think I should be up front about it or wait for a "what are you working on right now/planning for your team this year?" type of interview question? CarForumPoster posted:Yea if its less than a year I'd mention it along the lines of...not bad mouthing them but they missed X goal and that means they laid off a poo poo load of people including all of my direct reports and asked me to stay. I'm staying until a better offer comes through. I really like this, and will use something like this if it comes up in interviews. Thanks! CarForumPoster posted:The tone here matters a lot. You never wanna seem sour about your current job but there's value in being able to signal that your current employer hosed up and you know better than to hang around without saying any of that. The thought that should be planted is that YOU were too valuable to lose despite 20% of the company being walked out and that its very likely you'll be a manager again in no time because you're so valuable. I'm actually not sour about it, business is business and I had to cut people leading up to the change, including one the day before I got my news. I kinda saw the writing on the wall since summer as I saw my team and other teams dwindle away with no backfilling occurring. I have no hard feelings about the reasoning, things immediately around me right now just aren't gelling. CarForumPoster posted:EDIT: If it happened in early 2021 and the company's stock is doing great, this becomes a head scratcher. My employer's stock is down over 50% since November 2022 and just reported disastrous Q4 results. I'm not concerned about this angle. Semi-Protato fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 18, 2023 |
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Feb 18, 2023 01:18
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CarForumPoster posted:EDIT: If it happened in early 2021 and the company's stock is doing great, this becomes a head scratcher.
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Feb 18, 2023 01:21
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It's that plus many companies are laying off the people they hired for big salaries during the 2020-2022 labor crunch, they'll all get in a circle and pass staff to the company on their left while taking staff from the company on their right, and all the employees end up with the same job at an adjacent company for 20% less money. It was always going to happen.
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Feb 18, 2023 01:29
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Eric the Mauve posted:It's that plus many companies are laying off the people they hired for big salaries during the 2020-2022 labor crunch, they'll all get in a circle and pass staff to the company on their left while taking staff from the company on their right, and all the employees end up with the same job at an adjacent company for 20% less money. It was always going to happen. I still remember companies like Shopify going on wild hiring sprees in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. melon cat fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Feb 18, 2023 01:51
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Shopify def made sense because it was obvious in the short-mid term that a bunch of companies were scrambling around to figure out how to sell poo poo online
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Feb 18, 2023 02:19
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Arquinsiel posted:Layoffs make stock do better. That's why all the big companies are having them now, when they're doing fine. Plus putting us entitled techies in our place. Maybe so, but the advice style I give here is to tell stories with verifiable facts. Use the best set of facts that establish the case you want to build. Do so in a way that doesn't let some trivially poke holes in the story those facts tell. Semi-Protato posted:It just happened, the change was effective 1/1/23. It happened basically yesterday. You're still a manager in the eyes of interviews. I'd maybe mention it if I got asked "why are you looking for a new job" as a chance to seem candid. "I was an IC who got promoted to front line manager in 2019. I really enjoyed helping my team succeed. Unfortunately, they laid off my team shortly after [existential crisis in the company, e.g. 50% stock loss]. They've asked me to stay but I think more is coming and want to find a growing company I can help succeed. " KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Shopify def made sense because it was obvious in the short-mid term that a bunch of companies were scrambling around to figure out how to sell poo poo online My goon friend almost got hired by shopify as a product manager in late 2021. Looks like she dodged a bullet.
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Feb 18, 2023 02:28
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Don't overthink it. "After an extensive RIF, I was asked to stick around in an individual contributor role. I'd prefer to be leading a team." This kind of thing isn't uncommon and nobody will bat an eye at it.
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Feb 18, 2023 15:30
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Sounds good. Thank you, CarForumPoster and Dik Hz. Now for an exciting weekend of resume updating!
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Feb 18, 2023 16:50
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Dik Hz posted:Don't overthink it. Yeah, exactly. Don't list it out on your resume as it will look bad in writing, but explaining it like that is normal and covers you in case they actually check it out.
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Feb 18, 2023 17:57
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https://twitter.com/michaelaarouet/status/1627373618769408001 i laughed
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Feb 19, 2023 19:34
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I would have expected George Santos to have deleted his LinkedIn by now.
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Feb 19, 2023 19:38
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Clever move to get on screens.
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Feb 19, 2023 19:46
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A recruiter contacted me about a position in drug industry that I am interested in and asked for my resume. I sent it to them a week ago with no response. Should I follow up on this with a courtesy email?
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Feb 21, 2023 15:38
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DTaeKim posted:A recruiter contacted me about a position in drug industry that I am interested in and asked for my resume. I sent it to them a week ago with no response. Should I follow up on this with a courtesy email? Yeah if you don't hear back from that, then assume they've moved on.
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Feb 21, 2023 16:31
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I just operate on the assumption that every recruiter I give my CV to uses it as padding for The One Good Candidate for a role and am pleasantly surprised if I hear back.
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Feb 21, 2023 17:20
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Skills test interview and I totally blew it. Retouching is a weak point, in that I understand it but have had little experience. Lick wounds until I get the official rejection and then get back to looking.
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Feb 22, 2023 11:59
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I have a job offer confirmed and they are taking their time telling me the money. It’s a week and change now. The cognitive dissonance from doing my job well every day as if I were going to do it forever and hoping I get a good offer so I don’t have to do it any more is driving me mad like an Edgar Allen Poe protagonist. The Telltale HR.
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Feb 22, 2023 13:34
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Beefeater1980 posted:I have a job offer confirmed and they are taking their time telling me the money. It’s a week and change now. I'm in the same boat! Today is 2 weeks since the hiring manager emailed me welcoming me to the team. It's driving me insane. And every day that passes increases the chances that there's some fuckery going on, hiring freeze, re-org, last minute internal candidate. Fuuuuck.
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Feb 22, 2023 15:08
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There's probably more layers of approval right now for even easy hiring decisions, so extra delay isn't too shocking and doesn't necessarily mean there is fuckery going on. As always, until you have everything buttoned up continue to operate as if you don't have anything yet.
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Feb 22, 2023 15:14
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Lockback posted:As always, until you have everything buttoned up continue to operate as if you don't have anything yet. Definitely this. They'll probably get back to you soon, but you can't know and shouldn't be sitting around waiting on them. And realistically, if they haven't told you what salary they're offering, then they haven't actually made you an offer yet. They've just told you to expect an offer. Not the same thing at all.
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Feb 22, 2023 15:30
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Lockback posted:As always, until you have everything buttoned up continue to operate as if you don't have anything yet. This. You don't have an offer until you have an offer letter, and you don't have a new job until it's signed and everything hiring-related is complete.
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Feb 22, 2023 17:56
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I had an awkward experience where I told HR I needed to give two weeks notice. They sent me written confirmation that I was selected for the position and my start date would be in two weeks, and then took a week to send me the offer letter. In my case it was fine because the two weeks requirement was just bullshit I fed them to have two weeks off before starting, but I would have been pissed if I had had to make actual decisions during that week of waiting.
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Feb 22, 2023 19:19
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Big fan of the buffer vacation when negotiating start dates.
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Feb 22, 2023 19:57
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When do you all think is the correct time to start talking about getting references? Before an offer? Alongside interviews? Before interviews? As a part of application?
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Feb 23, 2023 21:44
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Magnetic North posted:When do you all think is the correct time to start talking about getting references? Before an offer? Alongside interviews? Before interviews? As a part of application? As an employer? Generally I don't do it. The only exception is if I am very truly and earnestly borderline on a candidate. In which case I'd ask for references only after I am done with all interviews.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:55
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Lockback posted:As an employer? Generally I don't do it. +1 I ask for them at the end, when I'm nearly-ready to make an offer. I don't always call them.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:20
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Asking for references up front is the norm for academia and bleeds over to the real world of you put phds in charge of hiring. In reality that’s a lovely thing to do because your best candidates will be managing their references and they won’t like having to do that in advance of an interview.
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Feb 24, 2023 19:24
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follow up from last month. i got a job offer finally from a small satellite company, $85K salary with 40-60 hour onsite work week expected. Seems like a demanding job at the moment but so far I intend on accepting and roughing it out til i get a year experience or get something else since I have zero EE work experience. It's a broad EE position with the expectation to wear many hats so I gotta brush up and ensure I dont get fired day 1. Thanks for all the help!
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Feb 25, 2023 02:00
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