|
Charity Porno posted:https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/historic_brawl/full#paper also what the gently caress, do you seriously think "the number of people that submitted their brawl deck to mtggoldfish's user-submitted-decks section" is actually representative of the historic brawl metagame? Like, you've just been in this thread complaining that the decks you play against don't look like this "metagame" at all!
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2023 23:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:13 |
|
|
Huxley posted:Here's my scorcher for the day: What I've been learning about the magic community is that anyone who works for the company and shows their face or ever speaks is definitely the worst dipshit idiot loser who hates every pet thing anyone loves and no design they ever made didn't irrevocably ruin the game and in fact all magic cards are bad
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2023 23:59
|
|
|
Jabor posted:also what the gently caress, do you seriously think "the number of people that submitted their brawl deck to mtggoldfish's user-submitted-decks section" is actually representative of the historic brawl metagame? I mean it seems more concrete than your "I made it up"
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:01
|
|
|
Huxley posted:Here's my scorcher for the day: I agree! I really like these looks into design. Overall I think it’s really neat that MaRo and Gavin are so open and willing to interact with the community despite seemingly everyone who posts about this game being at least a little insane lol. Rosewater’s been taking questions direct from the fans on his Tumblr for like a decade now despite every fifth question being someone telling him he’s a brain dead moron who is going to hell for putting Phyrexian Obliterator into standard. fadam fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Feb 14, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:08
|
|
|
Charity Porno posted:I mean it seems more concrete than your "I made it up" When have I made claims about the historic brawl metagame beyond "you're only seeing a small slice of it, you absolute buffoon"? Do you find it difficult to believe that other people choose to play decks that they find fun to play?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:09
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/wotc_matt/status/1625222251758092288?s=46&t=tPBYXYBlzxR--9fYD1EMRA That’s pretty clever, I don’t think I would have thought of that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:13
|
|
|
Jabor posted:When have I made claims about the historic brawl metagame beyond "you're only seeing a small slice of it, you absolute buffoon"? No. I find it hard to believe that an "algorithm" would be so useless as to place Queen Allenhal, Satoru, and Sol'kanar against Rusko over and over when the former 3 turn creatures sideways and the latter takes 20 minute turns where your death is assured. In fact I do not believe such an "algorithm" exists. Unless DU Jodah is somehow in the same camp because I switched to that and it's still tons and tons of Ruskos, and my Jodah deck is insane
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:20
|
|
|
Toshimo posted:Counterpoint: Gavin has been personally loving up EDH design while loudly outing himself as a total dip poo poo for years. Has he? Curious about the specifics here. He seems alright from what I've seen. Did he make the monkey card?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:24
|
|
|
CatstropheWaitress posted:Has he? Curious about the specifics here. He seems alright from what I've seen. Best piece of advice I can give to all my fellow Magic thread posters: check the post history before engaging.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:26
|
|
|
The matchmaking algorithm does exist, and I can at least give anecdotal evidence for it: about 2 weeks before ONE, I made a janky mono red aggro h brawl deck with Torbran as the commander and got matched with nothing but Esika, Golos, Rusko, Bolas, Ramos and Kinnan, then when ONE became available I switched to Solphim as the commander with Torbran in the 99 and I've been getting matched with actual fun decks
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:26
|
|
|
fadam posted:Best piece of advice I can give to all my fellow Magic thread posters: check the post history before engaging. I dont think i can do that anymore...
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:33
|
|
|
feature you are trying to access (Private Messaging, search, etc) is only accessible to Platinum members. We're sorry, but you cannot use this feature unless you have a Platinum account. Q: What a ripoff! I was never told about this! Why should I have to pay $10 to be able to search, when I can do it on other forums for free? A: That's a good point! Unfortunately, running a forum with nearly 95,000 users is a little tricky. If we allow everybody to search, then the forums would crash within nanoseconds. Trust us, we've tried it before. The vB software was never created to handle up to 4,000 simultaneous users at once, and as a result, the backend database server simply can't handle the load of everybody searching. Let me put it to you this way: each time somebody searches for something, vB has to go through a couple MILLION threads looking for those exact search terms. It can handle one person searching. It can handle one hundred people searching. It can not, unfortunately, handle a couple thousand people searching at once. If we were to let everybody search, there would be no forums left because the database server would take its own life by throwing itself onto the I-5. So if you'd like to send Private Messages, search, attach images, and use various other bonus features, please upgrade to a Platinum account. It's only $10, around the price of a two-hour movie. We think you'll get more than two hours worth of entertainment here, and your payment will help us afford the seven servers powering the forums you're using right now. Thank you! SA Forums - Something Awful - Search the Forums - User Control Panel - Private
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:34
|
|
|
Yeah i cant, rip
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:34
|
|
|
Silhouette posted:The matchmaking algorithm does exist, and I can at least give anecdotal evidence for it: about 2 weeks before ONE, I made a janky mono red aggro h brawl deck with Torbran as the commander and got matched with nothing but Esika, Golos, Rusko, Bolas, Ramos and Kinnan, then when ONE became available I switched to Solphim as the commander with Torbran in the 99 and I've been getting matched with actual fun decks For some reason I thought it did this in all queues, like there's MMR but it also matches you based on what's actually in your deck. So you can take hot garbage up to the last tier of rankings and only ever match against other hot garbage decks Haven't played arena in forever though, so they might have changed that at some point
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:35
|
|
|
mandatory lesbian posted:Yeah i cant, rip you can still hit the question mark to see all of someones posts in this thread
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:35
|
|
|
CatstropheWaitress posted:Has he? Curious about the specifics here. He seems alright from what I've seen. A huge problem with Gavin is that he loves his card designs in the context he makes them for and gives absolutely zero consideration to any other context. Which would be fine if he were lower in the hierarchy and there were people above him to give that consideration, but there aren't. So we end up with him designing overly powerful Commander cards he wants, which become staples because they're impactful, and brushing off criticism with "well, if someone in your playgroup is abusing them, tell them they're breaking the social contract!" We end up with him designing Commander cards that Commander players don't care about but that have a huge effect on Legacy and cheerfully admitting that he never thought about Legacy when he was designing them. We end up with, IIRC, the Professor asking him why they still print Temple of the False God in almost every Commander precon despite it being the worst land in all of them and inferior to a basic land, and Gavin basically saying "because that's the land we're giving you, figuring out that it's bad is on the player, that's how they learn!" And we end up with whatever the gently caress he did to Pauper, which hopefully someone else can go into detail on, because I don't play Pauper and everyone I know who did gave up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:42
|
|
|
Dammit gavin
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:46
|
|
|
disaster pastor posted:A huge problem with Gavin is that he loves his card designs in the context he makes them for and gives absolutely zero consideration to any other context. Which would be fine if he were lower in the hierarchy and there were people above him to give that consideration, but there aren't. So we end up with him designing overly powerful Commander cards he wants, which become staples because they're impactful, and brushing off criticism with "well, if someone in your playgroup is abusing them, tell them they're breaking the social contract!" We end up with him designing Commander cards that Commander players don't care about but that have a huge effect on Legacy and cheerfully admitting that he never thought about Legacy when he was designing them. We end up with, IIRC, the Professor asking him why they still print Temple of the False God in almost every Commander precon despite it being the worst land in all of them and inferior to a basic land, and Gavin basically saying "because that's the land we're giving you, figuring out that it's bad is on the player, that's how they learn!" And we end up with whatever the gently caress he did to Pauper, which hopefully someone else can go into detail on, because I don't play Pauper and everyone I know who did gave up. I don't think the Initiative stuff is that big of a deal (or at least any more of a deal than when they print something incredibly strong for Legacy and something ends up getting banned), and I don't play or follow pauper so I can't speak to that, but genuine question: Some people like playing with powerful commander cards, some people don't. What possible solution is there to appease both camps other than printing powerful cards and telling people to police their own tables? fadam fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Feb 14, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:47
|
|
|
fadam posted:Some people like playing with powerful commander cards, some people don't. What possible solution is there to appease both camps other than printing powerful cards and telling people to police their own tables? It's not only that they're powerful, there are plenty of powerful cards printed every year. It's that they're just objectively better than your other options. For example, he designed Arcane Signet and regrets it because he didn't think about the fact that a 2MV any-color mana rock fits in literally every deck. How do you police Arcane Signet out of your table? Is it so much better than Mind Stone or Fellwar Stone that it should be policed? Probably not. But is your deck worse if you don't have it? Probably. Also, not everyone has a table. Many EDH players show up to the store and play with whoever's there. Any big Magic event has an area set aside for EDH play and/or has little EDH tournaments, and even those tournaments are typically meant to be casual. Why is it the player's job to show up and say "hey, I'm a friendly person and I want to have a friendly game, but I don't believe in Arcane Signet and Gavin regrets printing it, so I won't play with you if you have it in your deck?"
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:56
|
|
|
There was this one deck-building site that had a short lived competitive rating for your decks based something or other. 99 Dark Confidants with Dark Confidant as commander got 100% from it. I say we bring it back.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 00:59
|
|
|
Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:There was this one deck-building site that had a short lived competitive rating for your decks based something or other. 99 Dark Confidants with Dark Confidant as commander got 100% from it. Are you sure it was tracking competitiveness and not just Bob?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
disaster pastor posted:It's not only that they're powerful, there are plenty of powerful cards printed every year. It's that they're just objectively better than your other options. For example, he designed Arcane Signet and regrets it because he didn't think about the fact that a 2MV any-color mana rock fits in literally every deck. How do you police Arcane Signet out of your table? Is it so much better than Mind Stone or Fellwar Stone that it should be policed? Probably not. But is your deck worse if you don't have it? Probably. If you feel that strongly about a buck-fifty rock that doesn't really do anything except make every deck that runs it (which isn't every deck, btw, lots of tournament CEDH decks have no interest in 2 CMC rocks fwiw) marginally better I can't stop you, but I personally, and I imagine most people, just don't care lol. Admittedly I never played in a non-Arcane Signet EDH format, but I can't imagine the game was more interesting when there was a Guild Signet or Talisman or something in that slot instead. I also do not believe there's a single person that actually doesn't want to play against Arcane Signet, or would even react at all to seeing it on the table across from them, but assuming there is...I don't know what to tell you. The game was filled with obnoxious cards people hated before, it's gonna be filled with obnoxious cards people hate until it dies. That's just life. Personally, a lot of of my favorite cards to cast in EDH are from commander sets: Rograkh, Dockside, Swat, Fierce Guardianship, Jeweled Lotus, Jeska's Will- I have a blast playing with and against all of these. IMO the most obnoxious cards to play against are from Standard legal sets: Rule of Law effects and Root Maze. fadam fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Feb 14, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 01:04
|
|
|
fadam posted:If you feel that strongly about a buck-fifty rock that doesn't really do anything except make every deck that runs it (which isn't every deck, btw, lots of tournament CEDH decks have no interest in 2 CMC rocks fwiw) marginally better I can't stop you, but I personally, and I imagine most people, just don't care lol. Admittedly I never played in a non-Arcane Signet EDH format, but I can't imagine the game was more interesting when there was a Guild Signet or Talisman or something in that slot instead. I don't feel strongly about Arcane Signet, I was using it as an example of Gavin saying "I want this for my deck" and then "noooo, now it's in every deck, I didn't consider that!" Which is my original point; he designs things because he wants them, he has nobody filtering those out anymore, and then he passes the buck back to the players whenever the players criticize him for it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 01:07
|
|
|
disaster pastor posted:I don't feel strongly about Arcane Signet, I was using it as an example of Gavin saying "I want this for my deck" and then "noooo, now it's in every deck, I didn't consider that!" Which is my original point; he designs things because he wants them, he has nobody filtering those out anymore, and then he passes the buck back to the players whenever the players criticize him for it. Okay, and if the worst thing that happens because of that is Arcane Signet...who cares? Personally I'm glad it's in the format, low colour decks love having access to another good 2 cmc rock IME.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 01:08
|
|
|
I think it's also just that mtg arena has 1 MMR rating for all constructed formats. Including historic brawl. So if you get a high mmr due to getting into diamond or mythic in 1 or more constructed formats, it's going to give you high ranking brawl opponents as well. And apparently the VAST majority of brawl players treat it as an intensely competitive format past a certain MMR. And THEN there's the deck matching algorithm. If your deck ticks enough of the invisible, mostly unknown boxes, you get hellqueue'd. Stuff like Kinnan, Golos, Esika, Baral, and now Rusko will almost always get you hellqueue'd. Also Torbran apparently. My Kaito deck got hellqueued, not sure if that's because he's that good, or because I played enough counterspells. Some commanders have a 50% chance to get matched with hell queue, so you'll see kinnan, golos, rusko, baral sometimes, but also you'll get to poo poo all over normal decks sometimes. I think most versions of Nicol Bolas have a chance to be in the hellqueue, but not always. Also any 5 color deck has a chance to be in the hell queue, but the worse ones like Kenrith tend to be matched with normal decks more often. Currently, Atraxa is NOT in the hellqueue, even though it's 90% the same as a 5-color ramp value deck like First Sliver or newer Jodah, so it's always getting matched against things MUCH weaker than it. 5-color Niv is in the hell queue I think, and Atraxa's effect is much better. I think if you win enough with a commander, your MMR might influence the deck matching algorithm too. I watch Amazonian a lot and she plays a lot of brawl, and she sometimes plays decks people submit, but she says that her experience playing a deck will be different from the person submitting it because she tends to get much harder opponents, and gets matched up against stronger stuff than the person submitting it. So for example, I could submit a deck I made that does pretty well, and see her play stuff I've never played against like 4 games in a row. It's also possible that if you have a high MMR, and make a solid deck, you might be matched against hellqueue commanders, while a new player with the same deck wouldn't. Long story short, don't bother. It's extremely stupid. A Moose fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Feb 14, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 01:25
|
|
|
disaster pastor posted:It's not only that they're powerful, there are plenty of powerful cards printed every year. It's that they're just objectively better than your other options. For example, he designed Arcane Signet and regrets it because he didn't think about the fact that a 2MV any-color mana rock fits in literally every deck. How do you police Arcane Signet out of your table? Is it so much better than Mind Stone or Fellwar Stone that it should be policed? Probably not. But is your deck worse if you don't have it? Probably. I mean I'm all for banning Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, all the other untapped 2-CMC rocks, and fetch duals. The problem for banning this stuff is where to draw the line because a lot of people enjoy those cards. It's understandable for any designer to screw it up from time to time and make something above curve, and unfortunately for MTG it turns out that for most of the eternal formats the screwups are similarly eternal. Not much can be done until and unless they start a new format with a smaller card pool. All that said, I'd rather have designers that are trying to push the bar a bit instead of being too cautious. Does anyone really want to go back to the days of vanilla creatures?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 01:59
|
|
|
I dunno if anyone cares, or this is for or against anything anyone's saying, but; There is 100% a deck based (rather than MMR) matchmaking thing going on in Historic Ranked. I've had preeeetty much the same ranked deck (Doom Foretold / dance of the manse) since Eldraine. It only plays against Muxus, Elves, Angels and a handful of other decks. Sometimes I'll play actually current top decks to shake things up, and I play into all sorts of weird (to me) stuff that I've never seen. And then I go back to just utterly fuckin' CRUSHING elves all day with 7 maindeck wrath effects and 4 doom Foretold.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 02:03
|
|
|
disaster pastor posted:I don't feel strongly about Arcane Signet, I was using it as an example of Gavin saying "I want this for my deck" and then "noooo, now it's in every deck, I didn't consider that!" Which is my original point; he designs things because he wants them, he has nobody filtering those out anymore, and then he passes the buck back to the players whenever the players criticize him for it. I don't think that's true at all, he's not Mr. Magic Card and anything he says goes. He was on shuffle up and play recently and prof was giving him poo poo or asking about many cards and most of the ones he was around to see, he wasn't making the final call. Even for the card he specifically did design, there was still a point where he handed it off for others to test and change, seemed like often the final card printed was not the versions he saw or made.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 02:40
|
|
|
I see absolutely no problem with Signet, I think having a couple easy to obtain, fairly costed fixers like it, and Command Tower are fine for the format
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 03:01
|
|
|
It doesn't matter how you feel about Signet, or whether Signet is good design. Gavin (I play 50 lands in my EDH deck*) Verhey lobbied for Signet to get printed, despite having basically zero understanding of a highlander format, was #shockedpikachuface that it became a format staple, declared it bad, and decided to push for only unplayable Manalith variants forevermore, because he also doesn't understand eternal formats, and that printing more dogshit doesn't unring the bell of all the existing cards. Seriously, look at this junk: https://scryfall.com/search?q=year%3E2019+mana%3D3+o%3A%22%7Bt%7D%3A+add+%22+-is%3Areprint&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name *A thing he publicly proclaimed at a Commandfest roundtable that was so shocking to the entire panel and audience that Bennie (Mr. Casual) Smith was like "My dude, you surely cannot be serious don't say that out loud".
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 07:02
|
|
|
i'm sure none of that is exaggerated at all for the sake of the hateboner you have towards the dude
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 07:06
|
|
|
Jabor and Charity Porno, knock it off with the tedious argument, thanks.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 07:34
|
|
|
Sorry, I'll get you the exact quotes: "Well, because I'm a monster I actually play a lot of lands and mana rocks and I think a lot of my commander decks will go to 55-plus when you hit when you count up all the mana rocks plus lands which is kind of absurd but when you consider how many of the mana rocks actually do other things like Mind Stone I mean it's a mana rock but also cycles into a card basically as I mentioned earlier a lot of my commander deck strategies boil down to accelerate play lands every turn win the long game." "So, yeah I mean I'll play like you know 43 lands then play like Mind Stones and Signets and soldering of course and Coalition Relic and and all this stuff." "I'm surprised that many folks are against playing Temple of the False God in Commander. It's a format ruled by ramp, you hit 5 lands, and multiplayer+40 life means games are forgiving. It's easy to focus on the time you couldn't use it over all the times you could.  "When specifically asked about why he forced Temple into a 36-land 3-color precon with No Land Ramp At All: "[Mardu] has the hardest time ramping its mana which is a compelling reason there the land count argument I'll give you but you know my thoughts I'm basically on temple of false god is that it's incredible and commander and a majority of decks should play it and the reason why is very few commander games you will not get to five lands in fact I would like in a competitive game of commander you will likely get to five lands and all you want to do in commander for the most part is ramp and draw cards and playing temple of false god is just a free ramp spell." "I'd go as far to say that Arcane Signet is significantly better than Jeweled Lotus in a majority of decks. In Commander, cards like Dark Ritual - trading a card for quick mana boost - are traditionally not very good. There will be decks where this is strong, but in many it won't" "I agree that we shouldn't have made Arcane Signet in retrospect. You can replace that with any 2-mana rock. Fellwar Stone is better than this card in many commander decks. Not saying Jeweled Lotus is bad/has no home, but I certainly don't think it's close to auto-include."
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 07:45
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Jabor and Charity Porno, knock it off with the tedious argument, thanks. You're about seven hours late and it had pretty naturally petered out on its own. I doubt either of us had any intention of dragging it back up at this point.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 07:48
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Jabor and Charity Porno, knock it off with the tedious argument, thanks. The last time either of is posted about it was 7 hours ago but ok Edit: hahaha overmoderation makes us find common ground
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 07:51
|
|
|
it means someone reported the argument enough times that leperflesh had to come and post something so the neighbourhood watch would shut up for awhile regardless of there actually being an issue
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 08:12
|
|
|
Sounds about right, only certain tedious arguments are okay lol
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 08:22
|
|
|
I don’t really understand why there’s a seperate queue in brawl, are they just worried MMR isn’t good enough? If all the decks in that queue are strong and counterspell based, I guess they’re worried it will upset the low power deck players and they’ll quit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 13:57
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/BasicMountain/status/1625304661006901250
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 14:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:13 |
|
|
Man I can’t wait, every episode of the first one was so good.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2023 14:48
|
|