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Attempting to renegotiate boilerplate contract terms after already being hired is not going to go well for youquote:everyone who's started any job is 'begging' at every annual performance review after hiring. If you're trying to negotiate a raise at your annual review you've already lost. Annual reviews are mostly when standardized adjustments or formal promotions are handed out. Managers' hands are mostly tied. You either start that conversation way before annual reviews, or force the issue with an off-cycle raise, usually by having another offer in hand.
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Feb 14, 2023 22:21
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We do annual reviews in Feb and the best time in my org to start the discussion for promotions or off cycle salary reviews is in April. There's still money in the budget early in the year and it's well before mid year check ins and end of year check ins. June/July isn't great, and Oct/Nov/Dec is no good either.
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Feb 14, 2023 22:37
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Going for raises is a negotiation because you are negotiating against an implicit "I will go work somewhere else". Sometimes that's a strong position, sometimes not. But agreed, it's smarter to not work against the general corporate inertia and time your conversations. Keep on mind off cycle raises take weeks out even months to work through. Sometimes it worth it, sometimes it's not.
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Feb 14, 2023 23:13
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Hey, thanks everyone for the input on hiring times. I haven't seriously applied for a job since 1999. I'm going for senior management/exec level jobs in private sector and local governments. My banta is I stay where I am. The way Federal retirement system is set up is that it's most advantageous to leave as soon as you're eligible. I apologize in advance if I  in the thread a lot end of spring.
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Feb 15, 2023 00:02
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literally this big posted:Well sure, in the same sense that everyone who's started any job is 'begging' at every annual performance review after hiring. Why would you try to negotiate away a non enforceable non compete that you signed? It will cost you something, since you already signed it. At minimum, it will cost you effort and possibly goodwill and you have no leverage.
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Feb 15, 2023 04:21
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Why would you try to negotiate away a non enforceable non compete that you signed? It will cost you something, since you already signed it. At minimum, it will cost you effort and possibly goodwill and you have no leverage. This. And making the point more generally, because it applies in a lot of settings: they got something of value, the noncompete, in exchange for some quantum of the things you value, title/salary/benefits/pto. They now have nothing of value if the FTC rule goes into effect, but you still have the full package you negotiated, including whatever quantum was for the noncompete, so in economic terms you got that tranche for free.
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Feb 15, 2023 07:19
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The inverse of that, is when last year we hired an outsourced HR company and they tried to get everyone to sign new contracts with non-competes to "regularise" things. I just ignored them, went straight to the owner and said "this is unenforceable, it makes you look like a dick, and this HR company don't know WTF they're doing".
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Feb 15, 2023 14:05
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Lockback posted:Going for raises is a negotiation because you are negotiating against an implicit "I will go work somewhere else". Sometimes that's a strong position, sometimes not. This. I got an unheard-of-early high level promotion in 2021 in part because they knew I could jump elsewhere for more.
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Feb 15, 2023 19:04
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Arquinsiel posted:The inverse of that, is when last year we hired an outsourced HR company and they tried to get everyone to sign new contracts with non-competes to "regularise" things. I just ignored them, went straight to the owner and said "this is unenforceable, it makes you look like a dick, and this HR company don't know WTF they're doing". The people who didn’t push back got nothing so I feel somewhat vindicated.
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Feb 15, 2023 20:07
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Oh yeah, if I was asked to sign a non-compete I would push back and/or ask for compensation.
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Feb 15, 2023 20:40
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I mean I literally phrased it as "this makes you look like a dick" and because of how the company is the HR company got a talking to and we got re-revised contracts.
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Feb 15, 2023 21:13
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I got an offer for a new position at the same company. The offer is a ~8% bump over my current position, but the new one comes with call hours. Totals about 800 hours of call a year. In my counter offer should I lay out a meticulous reason for why the money should be more(years of service, familiarity with the job duties, etc) or just say "the offer should be 14%"? The interesting wrinkle to the whole thing is because California just passed a law saying pay ranges must be included with a job posting I know approximately what range the offer can be in. Let me know what you think, and thanks in advance.
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Feb 20, 2023 08:33
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everydayfalls posted:I got an offer for a new position at the same company. The offer is a ~8% bump over my current position, but the new one comes with call hours. Totals about 800 hours of call a year. In my counter offer should I lay out a meticulous reason for why the money should be more(years of service, familiarity with the job duties, etc) or just say "the offer should be 14%"? The interesting wrinkle to the whole thing is because California just passed a law saying pay ranges must be included with a job posting I know approximately what range the offer can be in. After reviewing your offer and benefits I need $X to sign right away. Looking forward to work for you.
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Feb 20, 2023 14:16
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I personally don't like saying need because to me it implies you have other drivers than your inherent value. Perhaps this is nitpicky. "I am excited about the opportunity to join your company. I would be delighted to sign an offer for $X and start on DATE. I am looking forward to $DOING HIGH VALUE THING YOU WANT.
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Feb 20, 2023 14:28
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Both of those sound like weird wording for a company they already work at even if it's Edit: autocorrect SpelledBackwards fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Feb 20, 2023 |
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Feb 20, 2023 15:16
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SpelledBackwards posted:Both of those sound like weird wording for a company they already work at even if it's summer at a new hiring manager within the company, or am I misunderstanding the premise? No, I'm misunderstanding the premise  . If the OP is considering accepting a job at their current company, it's discussion-based begging and not negotiation. At that point, I think it's more reasonable to say why you will deliver specific value that means the company should pay more for it.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:20
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SpelledBackwards posted:Both of those sound like weird wording for a company they already work at even if it's summer at a new hiring manager within the company, or am I misunderstanding the premise? You are correct that it is at the same company but with a new manager. I am negotiating with an hr person at the moment so I am just looking to put the offer into a format that fits within their frame of understanding. I tend to over explain things so I was really looking for a reality check to see if I was on the right track. They are both good suggestions, but if anyone has other ideas I am all for it.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:22
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Couple of thoughts on explanation: 1) Changed job duties such as on call time are materially different and warrant higher compensation. You can say "in order for me to transition to 40% of my work hours on call, I need $X" 2) When begging for more money you need to convince the other party that the value you deliver is worth more than what they pay to get that value. For instance, years of service are not a reason to inherently compensate someone. Your years of service should correlate to higher performance and output and therefore more value, so frame this as a value discussion. Your experience with the company means you know x y and z which enables you to hit the ground running and immediately start assembling rubber chickens or whatever.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:31
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You could go with something like "The value I bring to the team and position is worth X. How close can your department get to that? I want to make an informed decision before committing." From what I understand, the only way to really get leverage is with an outside offer in hand that you can show.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:31
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This is the bog standard situation where you're going to have to accept being vastly underpaid in your new role because the company already knows exactly what your BATNA is, and then look to move on to a company that will properly pay you after one (1) year of experience at the higher level on your resume.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:35
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TheParadigm posted:You could go with something like This is probably not a situation where I can pit two forces against each other to get maximum value, and I am just going to have to be okay with that. I do have a decision between two offers to make though. My current boss is trying to put together a counter offer to have me stay in my current position, I am not sure if she will be able to get it put together but I want to compare the two best offers I can get.
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Feb 20, 2023 15:45
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I mean, you can also turn the offer down which isn't unreasonable for a pretty small increase. Is the role desirable beyond the pay increase? So there is a real negotiation here for sure. Personally, I'd probably take a more honest approach, assuming your current manager won't be pissy because you pursued this opportunity and came back. Tell HR that you are still mulling the offer over but the large increase in on call hours has you hesitating and the offer came in lower than you were expecting. Counter with something in range and reasonable, and if possible maybe reach out to the new manager. Usually HR cares more about where someone is on a range than a line manager does, so the manager may be able to help push for a higher wage. There's lots of nice things about a transfer like this and you're far enough along that they won't want to start over. Watch out for "start at this salary and we'll do something for you later", that is sometimes true, frequently that something is just the 3% merit. So be prepared for how you want to respond to that.
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Feb 20, 2023 16:18
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If I was in your position and wanted to stall things a bit I'd be asking what the on-call rate is. They're paying the extra 8% to have you spend your downtime keeping one eye on your phone. What do you get if you have to actually do anything during those 800 hours?
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Feb 20, 2023 16:24
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Arquinsiel posted:If I was in your position and wanted to stall things a bit I'd be asking what the on-call rate is. They're paying the extra 8% to have you spend your downtime keeping one eye on your phone. What do you get if you have to actually do anything during those 800 hours? That is 100% the kicker, it’s salaried so you would get “Flex Time” if you got called in. It’s a computer admin job in healthcare so mostly just logging in remotely and poking folks higher up the food chain if things get real. This sort of job does look much better on a resume then my current position so there is something to be said for putting in a couple of years. My options for advancement on the it side of the company are better then the clinical side.
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Feb 20, 2023 18:03
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Head of HR wanted to know what range I would accept. She mentioned in the conversation that they had a target range. She didn't seem to want to share their target range.  Do they think the hard sell is going to work? Do they not realize how bad this makes them look?  Back to sitting in my BATNA watching dashboards and prepping for meetings.
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Feb 22, 2023 23:13
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leper khan posted:Head of HR wanted to know what range I would accept. She mentioned in the conversation that they had a target range. She didn't seem to want to share their target range. I've been there. I had a staredown with a similar HR person - which I lost. I didn't end up taking that job, but it was a valuable learning experience about what to look for as a sign in the hiring process.
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Feb 22, 2023 23:38
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Quackles posted:I've been there. The funny thing is how much leadership touted transparency throughout the rest of the interviews/process. Some days you just feel like neo dodging bullets. Probably they'll come back with a bottom of market offer. 
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Feb 23, 2023 00:01
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My brother has been out of work for over a year and has finally been offered a job. The job offer comes from a small company (my brother would be the second employee) which was started by a Professor at a University. My brother had previously interviewed at this company a few months back but was not offered a job, so they know that he has not found a job yet. He was provided with an offer over the phone, nothing in writing yet, for $8K less than he was making at his previous job (he was furloughed and then let go when government contracts which supported his work at his previous company did not come through). The new job does not offer health insurance but stated they have a plan to start a health reimbursement plan by March, althgouh no estimate of the amount to be reimbursed was provided. The new job does not have a 401k plan, but stated they will start something once they have the health reimbursement in place. They also do not have an official vacation policy yet but stated it was 2 weeks PTO plus Federal holidays. The main reason given for not having any of these things in place is that they are a small company and my brother would be the second employee. The cost of health insurance out-of-pocket is $6K/year on the high end, and about $400/year for a parking permit at the University, so the job is really about $15K less than his previous job for about the same type of work. My brother is happy to take the job as offered (I get the sense that if health insurance and 401k was included he would have said yes immediately even though it is for $8K less than he was making previsouly), but was wondering if he should a) Accept the job with the contingency that they put the health reimbursement, 401k plan, and vacation terms in writing (have them commit to having these in place by a certain date), b) Try and negotiate a higher salary to offset the fact that he will be paying out of pocket for health insurance and no 401k for an unspecified amount of time (does he state this as a reason for the higher ask?), or c) Do something totally different to what is outlined in a) and b)? My brother knows the University professor (the Professor knew my brother was looking for a job and reached out to him about this opportunity) so my brother believes that they will be taking steps to implement health reimbursement and the 401k, but is uncertain about how long that might take and wants to minimize his risk. I guess we are trying to figure out what the best way to respond to this offer is given the circumstances. Jose Cuervo fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 16:27
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This all really depends on if he has other offers and/or how likely he will be able to get another offer. That said, this does not sound like a very good job but maaaybe it's better than nothing.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:41
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With a full year of unemployment I'd be taking what I could get with some light negotiation, and then continuing to search for jobs if that job is non-optimal.
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Feb 23, 2023 17:51
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Asking for a salary increase that can be reduced once the health/401k is in place is probably not unreasonable and would seem pretty fair. "Gimme an extra $4k for health, $3k for 401k and both of those can be dropped later". I would assume the chances of a professor to get that kind of admin stuff done to be next to nil, so some insurance is a good idea.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:00
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bamhand posted:This all really depends on if he has other offers and/or how likely he will be able to get another offer. That said, this does not sound like a very good job but maaaybe it's better than nothing. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:With a full year of unemployment I'd be taking what I could get with some light negotiation, and then continuing to search for jobs if that job is non-optimal. Lockback posted:Asking for a salary increase that can be reduced once the health/401k is in place is probably not unreasonable and would seem pretty fair. "Gimme an extra $4k for health, $3k for 401k and both of those can be dropped later". Thanks for the feedback. There is definitely uncertainty in when the health reimbursement and 401k will start being offered, so this seems like a good way to cover his bases in case it takes longer than expected. Can you suggest a good way to phrase the acceptance email so that it includes wording which asks for the salary increase to cover health and 401k until those come into play?
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Feb 23, 2023 19:48
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There’s no way to both accept and negotiate. Gotta pick one or the other.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:53
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If you’re asking for more money it’s not really an acceptance email. I think the BATNA in this case is terrible and it’s less a negotiation and more of a request like you’d do with your employer when asking for a raise.
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Feb 23, 2023 19:56
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Dik Hz posted:There’s no way to both accept and negotiate. Gotta pick one or the other. Jordan7hm posted:If you’re asking for more money it’s not really an acceptance email. Sorry. I meant to say how should the email be phrased to negotiate the increase in salary? Should he a. Say he can accept the job if they increase the salary to what they offered + $X, or b. Say he can accept the job if they increase the salary to what they offered + $X until they implement the healthcare reimbursement and 401k, and which point he will drop down to what they originally offered?
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Feb 23, 2023 20:35
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I'd be very suspicious of a company in any kind of tech-like sector that says that it's too small to have health insurance. There are companies who specialize in providing employment services including healthcare for small companies, they become a "co-employer" and they're who you get your W2 from.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:40
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Jose Cuervo posted:Sorry. I meant to say how should the email be phrased to negotiate the increase in salary? Should he "Thank you for the opportunity! I am considering everything right now, but I would immediately take this offer if you were willing to increase the salary by $3k for Health care and $3k for 401k (total of $6k increase to xyz) until such time these are available, then we can reduce the salary to the offer of (xyz-6k). Please let me know if this is acceptable." If they come back "Yeah, I can only do (xyz-6k)" then you can accept if you still want, no harm done and it didn't hurt to ask. If they withdraw their offer your brother was likely not going to actually get paid anyway.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:53
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Lockback posted:Watch out for "start at this salary and we'll do something for you later", that is sometimes true, frequently that something is just the 3% merit. So be prepared for how you want to respond to that. My position got "eliminated" 5 months in as a part of a massive layoff; another manager on a third team (different from the one I left and the one I was on) took me because she could do so without offering me more money, lol
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Feb 25, 2023 14:13
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I was once negotiating for an internal transfer to a position that I was not very qualified for that definitely paid better than my current position, where I was already underpaid. Knowing I had low BATNA (without knowing that phrase at the time) instead of immediately pushing for more money I pushed for getting, in writing, a 6 month review for a large pay bump so my pay would be in the standard range for the position I moved into.
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Feb 25, 2023 21:53
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I'd be happy to do it if I knew I wouldn't be around in 6 months. Those kinds of things are kinda worthless with at-will anyway unless you stipulate some kind of penalty. "Oh, we can't give you a raise, I guess your choices are keep working at your current salary or stop working. The same choice you always have."
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Feb 25, 2023 22:59
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