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KillHour posted:If a train stops here, could it block another train that needs to get through? Is it okay for a train to go past this signal and stop at the next signal, possibly for a long time? Yes: This signal can be a normal signal. No, stopping at one of the next signals would block something that should not be blocked: This signal has to be a chain signal.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:39
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The General posted:Trains are impossible, and my factory is an impossible spaghetti mess and my various patchwork solutions are all breaking down Situation normal, all factoryed up.
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Feb 23, 2023 20:52
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If you happen to be familiar with train signals in OpenTTD it's pretty easy to bring that knowledge into Factorio. Shocking that there's a lot of overlap between those two fandoms.
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Feb 23, 2023 21:37
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Having a single rail network that services all types of trains is much more complex than most bases need. If you instead have entirely separate networks for iron, copper etc you don't need to really deal with signals, stackers, stations etc basically at all. Your iron trains blocking intersections all over the place isn't a problem, they're iron trains backing up more iron so as your consumption increases the problem will just fix itself.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:12
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That works up until the point where you hit a situation where the different networks need to intersect because of the 3-utilities problem. Of course there's a mod that solves the problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAahBoEqgHQ
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Feb 23, 2023 22:23
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I think you'd be ok in vanilla for certain sorts of mega base as long as you aren't in ribbon world. Just assign each resource you want to train to a compass direction and you can have 4-8 different train networks that never need to touch. Less directions used gives more directions to expand the base away from resource base stations that then belt in what you need. That way you can save your Renai transport for the important things like sick jumps just because.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:32
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I think creating separate lines for all your resources is going to be way more effort than just doing it the right way, both in construction and planning. That and it'll make it difficult or impossible to scale. And what happens when your oil patch is fenced in by your copper tracks? If you have a problem with trains, just get this blueprint. It has prints for basically everything you could want to do with rail, but you really only need the station book and the 2-lane non-solar book. And even there you really only ever need the straight track, 90 degree curve, T-junction, and small 4-way junction. OpenTTD is fun and will definitely make you comfortable with signals, but it might end up making you reliant on bridges.
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Feb 23, 2023 22:39
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Right hand rail book? No thanks. Left hand for life.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:13
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I really should clean up and publish my rail book. Most of the ones out there have way too much.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:15
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The General posted:Sounds like I am sticking to separate lines for separate trains. For a rail system, think of it similar to a road system. Ideally, you want a main railway shared between your trains, and stops should be off on side rails so they don't block the main rail. Generally speaking, all rails should be one-way - if you want two-way service, lay two one-way rails next to each other. Where it doesn't behave like roads is when it comes to signaling. To put it simply, only one train can be between any two signals at a time. If a train is between Signal A and Signal B, then Signal A will turn red, and any approaching trains will stop and wait there until the first train has passed Signal B (which will turn red until the train passes Signal C, and so on). So by laying down signals, you're marking "where only one train can be at a time". If there's a split in the road or intersection, you want to use signals to divide up the various paths. Aside from that, it's also good to place signals at consistent distances along straightaways - the closer together your signals are, the closer together your trains can be, which means you can run more trains through a route at a time. This recent traffic jam of mine (sent a train to the wrong stop) shows pretty well how signals work: the green dots are green signals, the red dots are red signals, and the blue dots are blue chain signals. The center of the image is two one-way rails going opposite directions, with offramps that lead to a series of train stops at the upper right. You can see how when the signals are far apart, the trains are farther apart, and when the signals are close together a lot more trains can fit into a given length of track. You can also see how that one blue chain signal on the far right is preventing a train from entering an empty block where it would stop and block part of an intersection.  Even though it looks like a hot mess, this was actually pretty simple to clear up because there wasn't anything fundamentally wrong with the signals or network - a train was just sitting there blocking a high-traffic stop because it was trying to fill a fluid wagon from a stop with no fluid inputs. I cleared its schedule and redirected it to the proper stop, and the rest of the jam cleared up on its own.
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Feb 23, 2023 23:40
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Tiny Bug Child posted:I think creating separate lines for all your resources is going to be way more effort than just doing it the right way, both in construction and planning. That and it'll make it difficult or impossible to scale. And what happens when your oil patch is fenced in by your copper tracks? It's kind of funny how many Factorio players have decided that train signals or circuits are too hard and then go out of their way to make an overly complicated solution just to avoid them.
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Feb 24, 2023 00:18
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Vizuyos posted:For a rail system, think of it similar to a road system. Ideally, you want a main railway shared between your trains, and stops should be off on side rails so they don't block the main rail. Generally speaking, all rails should be one-way - if you want two-way service, lay two one-way rails next to each other. That's a lot of 1-1 trains!
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Feb 24, 2023 01:02
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When they make the space dlc they should also fold LTN into the base game
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Feb 24, 2023 01:31
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Vanilla station limits and the Train Control Signals mod combined have demolished any interest I had in using LTN, they make it super simple to set up effective train networks. As for learning trains, this video does a great job explaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG4oD4iGVoY Especially because it's only 3 minutes long instead of over an hour like some less than good factorio tutorial videos.
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Feb 24, 2023 04:22
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Impermanent posted:When they make the space dlc they should also fold LTN into the base game That's definitely not needed, once train limits were added to vanilla you can make very efficient and advanced train networks with a few tiny circuits.
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Feb 24, 2023 05:05
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Impermanent posted:When they make the space dlc they should also fold LTN into the base game You mean TSM, surely.
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Feb 24, 2023 05:09
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Solumin posted:You mean TSM, surely.  Oh yeah..
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Feb 24, 2023 06:05
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The General posted:Trains are impossible, and my factory is an impossible spaghetti mess and my various patchwork solutions are all breaking down Just build a small rail circle with two stops and put a single engine in. Don't have it transport anything, just have it go in circles. There, you got've got a train now. Wipfmetz fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Feb 24, 2023 |
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Feb 24, 2023 08:30
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Wire up a couple signals to the stations so they turn off right before the train would start slowing down. The stations have the same name so the train then re-paths to the other one, repeat until the train runs out of fuel. Encircle your entire base with these and you now have ablative train defense against biters.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:34
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Here is the guide that I used to figure out how to place the signals,once it clicked it gets super easy to build intersections,etc https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/4f38sk/factorio_train_automation_complete_parts_23_and/
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Feb 24, 2023 17:18
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Xerol posted:Wire up a couple signals to the stations so they turn off right before the train would start slowing down. The stations have the same name so the train then re-paths to the other one, repeat until the train runs out of fuel. Encircle your entire base with these and you now have ablative train defense against biters. No need, if you just have two stations with no wait condition the trains will just barrel through them at full speed.
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Feb 24, 2023 17:35
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im now picturing a ring of four seperate rails around your base as defense how fast and how much mass per train would be needed?
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Feb 24, 2023 17:40
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I don't know if more mass really helps but you'd want all locomotives to get the best speed. Alternatively put a couple loaded artillery wagons on so if the loco ever gets eaten the artillery goes off and starts taking care of the problem that is obviously getting too close.
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Feb 24, 2023 17:47
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I have to assume that if it was possible we'd already have youtube footage of it, this isn't exactly a new game after all. I was envisioning a train just shorter than the length of the track, made entirely out of locos. Regardless you need a way to stop them occasionally for refueling and repairs, and to my knowledge there's no way to read how low the HP on rolling stock is so that you can divert them for a pit stop before you lose a car completely and the whole system turns into "partial train, immobile."
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Feb 24, 2023 17:48
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It’s been done, let me find the video https://youtu.be/MUnl-M0lVBM
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Feb 24, 2023 17:50
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUnl-M0lVBM This one.
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Feb 24, 2023 17:52
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Ha I edited that in right as you posted
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Feb 24, 2023 17:54
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It's wildly impractical for several reasons but it is very silly, and that's what is most important.
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Feb 24, 2023 17:56
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i love it
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Feb 24, 2023 17:58
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Always delighted to be corrected about some new absurd thing other engineers have gotten up to in the Factorio thread, holy poo poo. Sadly, though, I don't see a system for automatic refueling or repairs so it could only run for so long...
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Feb 24, 2023 18:01
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LonsomeSon posted:I have to assume that if it was possible we'd already have youtube footage of it, this isn't exactly a new game after all. No way to read the fuel either. I think the thing to do would be to have a station enabled on a circuit timer, maybe slightly less than the duration of one nuclear fuel (which is something like 12 minutes for a train sustaining speed) and clock the inserters so they only insert a single fuel. Hold the train for a while so bots can conduct any necessary repairs. AFAIK there's no way to have damaged trains automatically reconstructed, so if something gets eaten you'll have to run out to fix it anyway.
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Feb 24, 2023 18:07
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LonsomeSon posted:Always delighted to be corrected about some new absurd thing other engineers have gotten up to in the Factorio thread, holy poo poo. You could have an inner loop with a station for fuel and repairs behind a wall with traditional defenses.
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Feb 24, 2023 18:11
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Obviously you need 4 defensive trains, one to run on the defense loop, two to be heading each to/from the repair station, and one at the repair station. And invoke dark magic rail placement strategies to fit all the trains in. e: Bonus points if this system also lets trains enter/exit the base through a traditional line.
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Feb 24, 2023 18:14
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LonsomeSon posted:Always delighted to be corrected about some new absurd thing other engineers have gotten up to in the Factorio thread, holy poo poo. It's ablative armor. Just give them enough fuel so they get destroyed before they run out.
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Feb 24, 2023 18:22
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I've been seeing some buzz around CyberSyn, supposedly being even better than LTN. I've not tried it yet but I'm tempted to start a quick modded run to give it a go. Anyone here with any experience with this one yet?
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Feb 24, 2023 18:55
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LonsomeSon posted:Sadly, though, I don't see a system for automatic refueling or repairs so it could only run for so long... That's why trainsaws are dumb. If you have 4+ parallel tracks with hundreds of shorter trains zipping along you can have them pull off the loop every few cycles to refuel. Also if one gets destroyed it's not quite so disastrous to the whole system.
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Feb 24, 2023 18:59
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If the trainsaw runs for long enough that you kill everything that the artillery aggros, does it really matter? Reset, relocate the arty and flip it back on.
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Feb 24, 2023 20:55
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MerrMan posted:That's a lot of 1-1 trains! Tbh, I'm not entirely sure what the point of longer trains are. I've never really felt like one cargo wagon worth of stuff wasn't enough for a single trip, and having different cargos for each car requires more up-front planning than I tend to bother with. Also, it makes for nice, compact stops that can be packed into some pretty high-density layouts if you don't care too much about leaving room for trains to line up. 
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Feb 24, 2023 21:32
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2-4 or even 1-4 is nice for very early lines where you can park at the mine stations for a while and drop off at the smelting station when you're full and it opens up. If you're doing anything resembling dispatch from yard like circuit activation of stations or LTN 1-1 and 1-2 are correct for maximum quantization and minimum blocking.
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Feb 24, 2023 23:09
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I've been 1-2 for ages because 1 loco for 2 cars was pretty optimal for acceleration once upon a time, and not sure if that's still the case or not, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna change my blueprints!
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Feb 25, 2023 01:29
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