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Fritz the Horse posted:I would rather the thread not wander into vague hypotheticals about what a Trump admin response would have been compared to their perceptions of the actual response filtered through social media. The Ohio national guard, crisis response, EPA etc would have probably responded identically and I would have trusted them way way less on reflex. But we also likely wouldn't have had this wreck then, if the stories of graduated dereg and inspection scaledown are uhhh mostly true
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Feb 24, 2023 03:40
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If this truth/tweet is any indication Trump still thinks he didn't get enough credit from the media for his circus stopover the other day. How insecure can one man be? https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1628928254236147715
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Feb 24, 2023 04:37
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The simple fact of counterfactuals of "what if it was the other team?" is that, even if you start by assuming equal outrage on both sides, what people make big stories of depends on what's available. If there was a cloud leak of Don Jr. doing cocaine and hanging dong, it would have been talked about and criticized by the left, but not as much as Hunter Biden. Why can I say that with certainty? The Trump kids actually doing shady business out of the White House got less attention from the left than Hunter's actions as a private citizen do now from the right, just because it happened in the context of a firehose of other scandals. Similarly, if a Trump director of something or other were fired and charged with theft for stealing luggage, it would have gotten talk but also been buried in all the higher level convictions and pardons of Trump's buddies.
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Feb 24, 2023 06:09
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Show me an equivalent poll where Democratic voters blame Donald Trump for something that happened in 2012 and I'll believe you. Until then, I'm going to always point to the 2010 poll of Republicans in Louisiana where the plurality blamed Obama for the 2006 hurricane Katrina response.
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Feb 24, 2023 07:00
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Epic High Five posted:It's the leaded gasoline of our generation. I thought that was going to be the microplastics?  In all seriousness as slow as the administration's response was I'm glad they're finally responding and pushing back at the railroads. Glad the fuckup also seems to have forced Norfolk Southern to give in to the workers time off demands. Shame it took a derail that got a freakish amount of attention to get those demands (and only for one railroad so far)
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Feb 24, 2023 07:05
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Has the response even really been that slow, even? In the context of regulatory response to an industrial accident, three weeks actually seems like... a pretty fast start. It's just that the "news cycle" - which is kind of an archaic term in the age of social media, but you know what I mean - is so insanely fast that anything that stays relevant for longer than 72 hours feels like it's been going on forever. The rhetorical response was slow, which was bad politics, and that's on the administration. The policy response I wouldn't expect to be anywhere at this point, especially considering they haven't finished investigating.
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Feb 24, 2023 11:19
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Youth Decay posted:If this truth/tweet is any indication Trump still thinks he didn't get enough credit from the media for his circus stopover the other day. How insecure can one man be? This is more pitiful than his stupid comb over. He pays money to have his ego stroked and then brags about it.
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Feb 24, 2023 13:49
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Alkydere posted:I thought that was going to be the microplastics? Microplastics, bisphenol a, "forever chem," and, of course, whatever is turning the frogs gay. But mostly device addiction starting at age 2-3
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Feb 24, 2023 14:42
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:this is mostly the problem in my mind, that social media is simply more accessible and easier to use, and humans being humans the convenience of being fed little bits of info outweighs the importance of if that info is valid or accurate at all. this is a problem regardless of one's politics, and it is especially bad for people who position themselves as jaded cynics who just instinctively don't trust the mainstream - it's equivalent to admitting that one prefers to eat random garbage because the standardized, middle class product is for boomer squares, man. now let me tell you the stories you'll never read about in the corporate news: did you know the ancient maya invented cell phones with the help of time traveling aliens? Tbh the most insane thing about social media is the way that it can turn a local news event six hundred miles away from someone into the biggest news events of their lives at the moment. The proliferation of the George Floyd protests are the clearest positive example of that but it's incredible how a local event where a drag queens reads some books in some random town becomes a coast to coast urgent issue.
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Feb 24, 2023 14:45
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CuddleCryptid posted:Tbh the most insane thing about social media is the way that it can turn a local news event six hundred miles away from someone into the biggest news events of their lives at the moment. That's not exactly new, though. Remember the whole ebonics freakout? That was a single school district putting out a single poorly worded resolution about their plans to improve teaching standardized english to kids that spoke vernacular black english, and it blew up the media for months on end and became an important part of the national racist zeitgeist.
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Feb 24, 2023 15:08
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Mellow Seas posted:Has the response even really been that slow, even? In the context of regulatory response to an industrial accident, three weeks actually seems like... a pretty fast start. It's just that the "news cycle" - which is kind of an archaic term in the age of social media, but you know what I mean - is so insanely fast that anything that stays relevant for longer than 72 hours feels like it's been going on forever. The actual cleanup process, testing, investigating, etc. was not slow and was exactly what you would expect. The EPA and DOT put out statements right away, but Pete didn't personally put out a statement about policy changes until 4 days later and wasn't going to visit the spot until 10 days later. Personal visibility from Pete is the primary thing people are complaining about. Pete visiting doesn't really make any difference materially, but it is bad optics so some people are wishing he did it earlier and some people know it is something they can hit him on.
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Feb 24, 2023 15:09
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Haystack posted:That's not exactly new, though. Remember the whole ebonics freakout? That was a single school district putting out a single poorly worded resolution about their plans to improve teaching standardized english to kids that spoke vernacular black english, and it blew up the media for months on end and became an important part of the national racist zeitgeist. Sure there have been stupid things like that before but it usually had to at least make it to a news site first. In the social media age you can whip up a national hysteria in 6 hours. Things have always stuck around after they made it into the public consciousness but now it happens *fast* and without even the mild quality control that comes from having to have a story on your own website.
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Feb 24, 2023 15:11
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Granting, of course, that the derailment is a real story and worth paying attention to, it is troubling to think what kind of precision can be brought to bear in ginning up social media outrage by parties with access to big data. I'm sure the "science" of it has advanced far past what the IRA/Cambridge Analytica were able to do seven years ago. What exactly makes people freak out beyond reason is probably, on some level, fairly predictable.
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Feb 24, 2023 15:21
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Yeah he didn't need to visit the site the next day but he could have said something, especially since the administration hadnt bothered to restore the regulations they correctly blame Trump for removing. He was being called on to say something almost immediately and sat on his hands. I don't think we need a bunch of engineering surveys to conclude that Trump's deregulation was bad
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Feb 24, 2023 15:26
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Personal visibility from Pete is the primary thing people are complaining about. Pete visiting doesn't really make any difference materially, but it is bad optics so some people are wishing he did it earlier and some people know it is something they can hit him on. it seems like a really inconsequential thing to be upset about - like finding something to base anger on because the anger is a foregone conclusion, we just need to find an excuse im also pretty unimpressed that it seems like uncritical exposure to social media has lead to right wing attacks on the administration being repeated by those on the left, but socialistly. if the actual attack is identical coming from Rep. Bob McChud (R) or a rose emoji guy, am i expected to take the attack seriously just because the person making it swears they have good politics? feels like people trying to explain how they weren't actually tricked into uncritically repeating republican propaganda folks out here worried about environmental pollution when they should be worried about informational pollution imo
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Feb 24, 2023 16:07
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You have it backwards. Turner and other leftists were calling out DoT for failing to reverse the deregulation almost immediately and the right wing jumped on in bad faith. It took them a couple days to work out their angle too, as we discussed here, because obviously they dont want stronger unions or regs Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Feb 24, 2023 |
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Feb 24, 2023 16:12
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:it seems like a really inconsequential thing to be upset about - like finding something to base anger on because the anger is a foregone conclusion, we just need to find an excuse I suggest evaluating arguments based on their merits and not on what letters or emojis people saying them have next to their name.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:19
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Judgy Fucker posted:I suggest evaluating arguments based on their merits and not on what letters or emojis people saying them have next to their name. yeah, that's what i'm saying. i just see people squirming trying to explain why their messaging is in lockstep with the GOP on this issue but they actually mean it from the opposite direction so it's good, somehow. i think in general it's better to be skeptical of what one reads on social media, especially when the outcome is finding our daily ration of misguided outrage
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Feb 24, 2023 16:21
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:it seems like a really inconsequential thing to be upset about - like finding something to base anger on because the anger is a foregone conclusion, we just need to find an excuse What do you think makes the left wing critiques of the administration "identical" to the right wing attacks? Was Nina Turner claiming that Biden and Buttigieg are trying to genocide white rural Americans? No, of course not.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:22
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:yeah, that's what i'm saying. i just see people squirming trying to explain why their messaging is in lockstep with the GOP on this issue but they actually mean it from the opposite direction so it's good, somehow No that's still the other thing. Leftists chant Gop start chanting and slip in some slurs. You come in saying "how could all these leftists chant like this, obviously they are wrong" without ever even looking at the words
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Feb 24, 2023 16:26
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Fister Roboto posted:What do you think makes the left wing critiques of the administration "identical" to the right wing attacks? Was Nina Turner claiming that Biden and Buttigieg are trying to genocide white rural Americans? No, of course not. I won't speak for the other poster but the NTSB literally released its report a day or two ago but people were already claiming their issue was the cause and Biden is actually the worst because of their issue not being addressed. I agree regulate the train industry and give the union what it needs but people were claiming that Biden legislating the strike was the cause of this when we had no clue what was happening. In the age of instant media, speculation runs rampant about why X or Y didn't happen. Or that this is directly causing that. I guess ultimately it feels like people rooting for their take instead of you know addressing what's actually going on.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:29
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:yeah, that's what i'm saying. i just see people squirming trying to explain why their messaging is in lockstep with the GOP on this issue but they actually mean it from the opposite direction so it's good, somehow. i think in general it's better to be skeptical of what one reads on social media, especially when the outcome is finding our daily ration of misguided outrage What does it matter if a leftist's argument is the same as a GOP talking point? In this specific instance, I think Buttigieg and the Administration being slow to publicly respond (visit the disaster area, make public pronouncements, etc.) is bad because it further erodes trust in the government. It would be nice if Americans were aware of the mundane arcana of the cleanup effort, but they aren't, all they know is what they read in the proverbial papers, and details of disaster recovery don't draw ratings or clicks. But pictures of important elected officials visiting distraught or grieving families do, and when people don't see pictures of our leaders ~*caring*~ it continues to degrade faith in the system. I understand that derailments--and even ones with environmental consequences--happen frequently. That has been covered in this thread. But whatever the reasons, this derailment made news, and the Administration has done a lovely job communicating its response to the wider public. Not the kind of people who have this thread bookmarked, the kind of people who "really aren't in to politics" but still vote every couple years, at least. Which is to say, a shitload of people.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:30
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:it seems like a really inconsequential thing to be upset about - like finding something to base anger on because the anger is a foregone conclusion, we just need to find an excuse I agree that a lot of the attacks on Mayor Pete are misguided but it is also clear that he has not been doing a great job. This is why Lina Khan's chief of staff is now Mayor Pete's chief of staff. https://prospect.org/infrastructure/transportation/2023-01-18-anti-monopoly-reformer-jen-howard/
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Feb 24, 2023 16:31
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Mooseontheloose posted:I won't speak for the other poster but the NTSB literally released its report a day or two ago but people were already claiming their issue was the cause and Biden is actually the worst because of their issue not being addressed. OK cool, but you're leaving out a key portion of what I said. Who on the left is saying that Biden is trying to kill off white rural Americans? Where are all these rose emoji people saying that the accident happened because Buttigieg is focusing solely on "woke" politics in the DOT? Those are the attacks coming from the right. If you want to convince me that the attacks from the left are identical or in lockstep with them, you're going to have to show me some evidence of this. Yes, both sides are attacking the administration, but the actual substance of those attacks has a lot of important distinctions! Just to be clear, the original claim was that the attacks are identical, not just that they have some similarities.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:34
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Judgy Fucker posted:I understand that derailments--and even ones with environmental consequences--happen frequently. That has been covered in this thread. But whatever the reasons, this derailment made news, and the Administration has done a lovely job communicating its response to the wider public. Not the kind of people who have this thread bookmarked, the kind of people who "really aren't in to politics" but still vote every couple years, at least. Which is to say, a shitload of people. i dont want this to be construed as chatting about posters but there were certainly people in this thread, people you would describe as interested in politics, who had no idea what the administration's response actually was or how the various responsibilities of response were parceled out. instead it's like "why isn't the administration doing anything (i have not checked to see what the administration is doing)" because we are driven to see the things that generate the most engagement, which generally means the angriest takes, which in this instance are a baseline "why isn't the administration doing anything?" my point is that all of us are overly prone to getting information as random bullshit washed around on social media and that is broadly disappointing. we can't really blame this on the unwashed electorate who simply doesn't know better, it's dangerous to think that we're too clever to fall for these simple traps Judgy Fucker posted:
imo people are going to distrust the government no matter what and find an excuse after the fact that justified their assumptions. distrusting the government and being mad about it is just more exciting than not doing any of that, and we all need a little anger to get us through the day Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Feb 24, 2023 |
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Feb 24, 2023 16:39
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:i dont want this to be construed as chatting about posters but there were certainly people in this thread, people you would describe as interested in politics, who had no idea what the administration's response actually was or how the various responsibilities of response were parceled out. instead it's like "why isn't the administration doing anything (i have not checked to see what the administration is doing)" because we are driven to see the things that generate the most engagement, which generally means the angriest takes, which in this instance are a baseline "why isn't the administration doing anything?" Quote those posters and we can discuss what they said what was said to them and how they responded. I was one of those posters and I pointed out how much these regulatory apparatus work like climate change. Yes we can't identify a specific cause but the fact is that these disasters are more likely in part because the administration did not reverse Trump's deregulation. I even cited an expert statement that having the improved brakes would have made the outcome of this disaster less severe even if it didn't prevent it
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Feb 24, 2023 16:42
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Harold Fjord posted:No that's still the other thing. Was it the GOP posting a series of tweets from randos with misinformation? Was it the GOP that posted here saying they "only believe people they agree with" when shown the slightest bit of evidence they were wrong? People are capable of reading what leftists say and disagreeing without confusing them with other people.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:43
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socialsecurity posted:Was it the GOP posting a series of tweets from randos with misinformation? Was it the GOP that posted here saying they "only believe people they agree with" when shown the slightest bit of evidence they were wrong? People are capable of reading what leftists say and disagreeing without confusing them with other people. The assertion is that the GOP is copying leftists not the other way around. This seems to be supporting that and I appreciate it. I don't know which tweets you're accusing of being misleading so we can't go into it more than that because a bunch of tweets were posted and some were likely more or less misleading than others. Some of them may have been posted by leftists some of them may have been posted by trolls, I don't pretend there is no overlap but this vague posting about posters is extremely unproductive for exactly this reason. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Feb 24, 2023 |
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Feb 24, 2023 16:44
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plogo posted:I agree that a lot of the attacks on Mayor Pete are misguided but it is also clear that he has not been doing a great job. First of all, Jen Howard is not the DoT's chief of staff, Laura Schiller is. And I honestly have no idea what the "chief competition officer" position is, maybe someone else can enlighten me? It's not listed on the key officials page of the DoT. Also, I'm confused on why you think hiring Howard indicates that Buttigieg is not doing a great job? I honestly don't have an opinion on his job performance. But based on that linked article, Howard seems like a really good hire Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Feb 24, 2023 |
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Feb 24, 2023 16:44
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Judgy Fucker posted:What does it matter if a leftist's argument is the same as a GOP talking point? Because it reinforces the notion that both parties are the same in our larger cultural discourse. This leads directly to things like a rapist game show host becoming president. I despise Mayo Pete as much as anyone on this forum, but there does come a point when even legitimate criticism of democratic politicians gets co-opted effectively and becomes a tool for fascists.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:48
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Because it reinforces the notion that both parties are the same in our larger cultural discourse. This leads directly to things like a rapist game show host becoming president. Sorry does objective truth not matter here?
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Feb 24, 2023 16:49
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I despise Mayo Pete as much as anyone on this forum, but there does come a point when even legitimate criticism of democratic politicians gets co-opted effectively and becomes a tool for fascists. Are you saying we shouldn't make legitimate criticism, we should stop once the GOP finds out, or something else?
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Feb 24, 2023 16:50
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I'm not saying don't criticize the administration. I'm just saying that the criticism can and does help fascists. Whether or not that's a fair trade is up to an individual. I'm not making a judgment there.
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Feb 24, 2023 16:53
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Not criticizing the administration can also help fascists, because pretending COVID is over is eugenics. "I'm not judging you but I am saying you're helping fascists" is quite a loving statement either way. You believe that you should be judging. You're wrong but you should be
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Feb 24, 2023 16:53
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Wouldn't it be terrible if the president was a rapist. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 24, 2023 16:55
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Judgy Fucker posted:What does it matter if a leftist's argument is the same as a GOP talking point? Because, generally speaking, as soon as someone points out that a Leftist and a Right-Winger stringed together a sentence with similar words in it, any point that was being made is dismissed as "Oh, you're just falling for the Right Wing propaganda machine. That thing you said is actually a big nothingburger, if it had any merit to it it wouldn't be repeated by the GOP/Tucker Carlson. You should bone up on your media literacy."
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Feb 24, 2023 16:57
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Because it reinforces the notion that both parties are the same in our larger cultural discourse. This leads directly to things like a rapist game show host becoming president. The Dems are hurtling America off a cliff too, just somewhat slower than Republicans. They should experience pushback too. If the Dems want to get less criticism, maybe they should stop being so lovely.
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Feb 24, 2023 17:01
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Kalit posted:First of all, Jen Howard is not the DoT's chief of staff, Laura Schiller is. And I honestly have no idea what the "chief competition officer" position is, maybe someone else can enlighten me? It's not listed on the key officials page of the DoT. Because she would stay with Lina Khan if she wasn't needed to boost DoT, that is how I read it. And I agree that she is a good hire.
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Feb 24, 2023 17:21
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cat botherer posted:As pointed out, Biden also has sexual assault allegations. This is just a really dumb way of shutting down criticism - absolutely emblematic of politics as a team sport. Just by the existence of reality, it is inevitable that some criticisms of the Biden admin from the left will be the same or similar as from the right, when the right senses an opportunity to do so. To me the issue is an element on the left on this event stuck their flag in the ground before we knew what happened. They blamed Biden for ending the strike, Biden not regulating hard enough, and not responding quickly enough to CHEMICAL CLOUDS when we didn't have even close to a complete idea as to what's going on. Sure the Right Wing gloomed onto it but that's what they do.
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Feb 24, 2023 17:24
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Judgy Fucker posted:What does it matter if a leftist's argument is the same as a GOP talking point? If someone is saying the same thing the fascists are, it's worth asking why. Maybe it's a "sky is blue" thing, or someone's having a stopped clock moment, but I don't think ignoring it is wise. cat botherer posted:As pointed out, Biden also has sexual assault allegations. This is just a really dumb way of shutting down criticism - absolutely emblematic of politics as a team sport. Just by the existence of reality, it is inevitable that some criticisms of the Biden admin from the left will be the same or similar as from the right, when the right senses an opportunity to do so. Exactly this.
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