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Zero VGS posted:As a weapon it's sort of signature to Freeman, who's in a powered suit. As opposed to a teenage girl going Conan with the thing. You put a Half-Life game in VR, the first thing people are gonna ask (and did) is "Where's my crowbar?"
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Feb 25, 2023 05:30
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njsykora posted:I assure you teenage girls are perfectly capable of doing serious damage with a crowbar. You sound like you have firsthand experience so I won't ask any followup questions.
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Feb 25, 2023 05:31
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Valve prioritized comfort for vr newbies above all else. I agree it was the wrong choice, or could have been balanced better, but it’s understandable when you realize this was the first real AAA title in a brand new category.
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Feb 25, 2023 05:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You put a Half-Life game in VR, the first thing people are gonna ask (and did) is "Where's my crowbar?" I didn't, I instead went "Man Valve is good at this" and played the game
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Feb 25, 2023 05:35
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Giving every videogame protagonist a gun is imo way less inspired than letting them swing objects around.
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Feb 25, 2023 05:36
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I dunno, Horizon literally has you smashing boards with a climbing axe and every time I have to do it I wish I could just pull on them instead. It's kinda clumsy and sometimes the swing doesn't hit "right" so it just kinda bumbles off the board and doesn't break, or I need to shuffle a bit back or forward to get lined up right to try again. It doesn't help that the horizon weapon wheel is kinda clumsy and slow and a total flow killer
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Feb 25, 2023 06:02
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VR melee is one of those things that sounds like it's as simple as just making all the objects involved respond to each other, but it absolutely isn't. Just like throwing, you have to add a big invisible layer of juiced up fakery to it to make it feel good.
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Feb 25, 2023 06:26
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Melee feels good in beat saber
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Feb 25, 2023 07:39
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https://twitter.com/SadlyItsBradley/status/1629360409391104001 Potential cure for motion-blur in your PSVR2, Lemming. edit: Might as well post it here too, If you want a cheap-ish audio solution for the PSVR2 that isn't earbuds, Bionik's Mantis clip-on off-ear speakers work just fine on the PSVR2. Migrated mine over from my PSVR1 headset and they clipped on perfectly to the headset strap. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Feb 25, 2023 |
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Feb 25, 2023 08:16
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SuperHot is 60% off in Meta https://www.oculus.com/experiences/quest/1921533091289407/ And Mixture is out now https://www.oculus.com/experiences/quest/4691626700899382/ I will search some reviews for the later e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YEKf8aYXFM Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Feb 25, 2023 |
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Feb 25, 2023 12:18
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https://twitter.com/vr_oasis/status/1629079482337222656 lol
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Feb 25, 2023 13:22
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You would think that doing dumb stuff like that in VR would have lost its novelty by now. But nope, still funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72VXMjO14oc
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Feb 25, 2023 19:29
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The problem is good VR interaction should try to enable instinctive player responses, not flat deny them. Melee doesn't even have to be perfect, just registering a hit and reaction is good enough to satisfy. If your concern is "well people are just gonna run around hitting zombies with an iron pipe instead of shooting them", that's not an actual problem, that's just people making their own fun in VR. Yeah this is where I fall. I absolutely understand the various pitfalls and that Valve made a deliberate choice, but to me I don't really understand the point of VR that doesn't emphasise organic interaction with the world.
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Feb 25, 2023 22:05
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I really appreciate the lack of jank in Alyx. It doesn't have it all, but what it has was clearly well thought out and polished. But I cannot believe that the little 'click' of the trigger in the index controllers does NOT coincide with the breaking of the sear on the pistol trigger. I mean, talk about a missed opportunity for conveyance 
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Feb 25, 2023 22:19
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Because it's still mock interaction. Waggle, and the big brother of waggle, "grown man throwing full rear end, whole-body swings" is not suitable for every game. Especially if it's shooty shooty game. And valve made a shooty game. If you think that's wrong, I think you're wrong!
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Feb 25, 2023 22:20
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forest spirit posted:Because it's still mock interaction. Waggle, and the big brother of waggle, "grown man throwing full rear end, whole-body swings" is not suitable for every game. Especially if it's shooty shooty game. And valve made a shooty game. Whats your actual point? Adding physical damage to the colliders wouldn't have been an issue nor would it have made the game lovely. It would have allowed people to have those reaction moments of panic with melee struggling with NPCs near you. Those moments are what makes VR enjoyable. They deprived their player base of that enjoyment. Christ we're even thinking about adding some melee mechanics for a bow shooter that the odds you'd EVER actually be in melee range are like 1%. I'm so glad so many of you are not actually in the industry making games. Ya'll lack imagination. Neddy Seagoon posted:The problem is good VR interaction should try to enable instinctive player responses, not flat deny them. Melee doesn't even have to be perfect, just registering a hit and reaction is good enough to satisfy. If your concern is "well people are just gonna run around hitting zombies with an iron pipe instead of shooting them", that's not an actual problem, that's just people making their own fun in VR. DING DING DING DING Something as simple as melee colliders in something like half life should be standard. Its the kind of game you'll instinctively want to bash something and for some reason can't. Great immersion. lmfao EbolaIvory fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Feb 25, 2023 |
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Feb 25, 2023 22:36
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The Eyes Have It posted:I really appreciate the lack of jank in Alyx. It doesn't have it all, but what it has was clearly well thought out and polished. I think there's still jank in the presentation that's caused by the limitations they imposed like there's multiple parts where I got confused because I wasn't using teleportation but the only way to advance was teleporting and I ended up running around forever searching for the correct path before figuring it out I remember coming up to the first spot like this and thinking "oh this is an easy jump" and then checking the controls and seeing there's no jump, but then I noticed a very obvious pipe running right where you'd need it to climb across and I thought "oh cool, climbing" but then that didn't work either so I wandered around a while similarly right before you encounter your first zombies you're forced to grab a pipe and dislodge it to open a door, which immediately makes you want to smash some zombies with a pipe but it does nothing when you try I still think it's one of the best VR games and pretty low on jank, but moments like that really stuck out to me as being poorly designed in an un-valvelike way oh, also it was an insane decision to make it possible to teleport into instant falling death
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Feb 25, 2023 22:42
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forest spirit posted:Because it's still mock interaction. Waggle, and the big brother of waggle, "grown man throwing full rear end, whole-body swings" is not suitable for every game. Especially if it's shooty shooty game. And valve made a shooty game. Yeah and what we see with our eyes is still a mock representation of the real world but you still have to accept it at some point right
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Feb 25, 2023 23:22
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Okay it seems like VR gamers were barely fighting back their hind-brain at a berserk-boil through the entirety of Alyx because crowbar game no have crowbar. Because of this these specific players cannot engage in dialogue with the game directly speaking to them through it's mechanics. The entire point is VR or not a videogame is a directed experience and they're directing you to the guns and not the melee weapons, and you can think that's wrong but that's doesn't mean you're right. Like it's arguably the best VR game. Ebola take a chill pill dude. It's not lack of imagination it's designing a game where people aren't literally flailing for an added 450%. Valve consider body poses of the player during a session and they don't want people throwing haymakers at the three flying headcrabs like it's loving batting practice every 10 minutes Alyx is a teenager and some want her to be able to crowbar three alien Tarman to death while shooting a shotgun in her offhand. And aren't there mods that add back in melee? I don't see any recommendation to play those because obviously the game wasn't designed for that type of interaction in the first place. I have done the coolest poo poo out of anyone here in blade and sorcery you better believe me I tell you what. I know melee better than all y'all. I am the VR melee MASTER and I will 1V1 anyone in the VR melee battlefields if I am questioned on this. How many of you have even played the earth bending mod for blade and sorcery? I thought so. The last paragraph being really stupid is to just throw of Ebola Lunchmeat Larry posted:Yeah and what we see with our eyes is still a mock representation of the real world but you still have to accept it at some point right yeah "gamer ppl" who "understand games" see with their eyes a fuggun game saying "this isn't a melee game use the fuggn gun" and do not accept it at any point apparently lol. forest spirit fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 02:25
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They executed well on what they were going for but they were going for something that was pretty straightforward and underwhelming by the time the game came out. It was very polished and pretty, but by that point I think a lot more interesting things had been done in VR and they paved the way for things that are more novel and a better fit for the medium, which I find a lot more exciting. I think in the future, games are going to be built less and less in the vein of Alyx.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:33
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forest spirit posted:Valve consider body poses of the player during a session and they don't want people throwing haymakers at the three flying headcrabs like it's loving batting practice every 10 minutes Which in a VR game prevents peoples creativity and ruins immersion. But ok dude! Its a simple feature that could have been a thing without any actual negative side effects. But go on sir, go on. Lemming posted:They executed well on what they were going for but they were going for something that was pretty straightforward and underwhelming by the time the game came out. This, every single possible "Risk" they could have taken, they didn't. Was alyx a bad game? Nope. Never said that. Its just boring when theres so many other VR experiences out there that let you actually do real things instead of cock blocking you from doing something basic you could do IRL. Lunchmeat Larry posted:Yeah and what we see with our eyes is still a mock representation of the real world but you still have to accept it at some point right Apparently not according to them. lol EbolaIvory fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 02:36
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EbolaIvory posted:
Bro, you just don't sound intelligent right now.
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Feb 26, 2023 02:43
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I think I'm getting confused by "you need to judge a game on what it's trying to be" and "what exactly is the point in VR". Alyx is a very deliberately made and constrained game and it's not really fair to want it to be a different game. At the same time what's the point in this whole VR experiment if the best game we have is something that could probably just be a flatscreen game
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Feb 26, 2023 02:57
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truly "you can't criticize a game for the choices it makes" is the big brain take and will lead to a wonderful thread of VR discussion
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Feb 26, 2023 03:03
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TIP posted:truly "you can't criticize a game for the choices it makes" is the big brain take and will lead to a wonderful thread of VR discussion Well like, I'm not going to criticise Wario Land 4 for not having a detailed troop management metagame, should I really criticise Alyx for not allowing me to throw my gun up in the air and catch it with my other hand? I feel like the answer is no, obviously not, because that's not what that particular game was trying to achieve. Alyx is not trying to be a detailed physical simulation. But also that's just the sort of thing I feel like I should be able to do in VR so maybe it's something we should be able to expect in VR games generally? I guess this comes down to a philosophical argument as to why we are gluing stupid headsets to our faces, there's not really a right answer here. I once sucked six dicks in a row. Lunchmeat Larry fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 03:09
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:Well like, I'm not going to criticise Wario Land 4 for not having a detailed troop management metagame, should I really criticise Alyx for not allowing me to throw my gun up in the air and catch it with my other hand? Decide for yourself, you can criticize a game for whatever you want.
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Feb 26, 2023 03:18
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In a row like end to end, or adjacent like a pack of hot dogs?
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Feb 26, 2023 03:26
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I have been the most incredibly immersed probably playing a multiplayer round of x-wing squadrons with friends shortly after it was released. Boosting and drifting around and the attack/defend cadence of the rounds felt great. I was playing with HOTAS, an ms sidewinder force feedback 2 and thrustmaster twcs throttle. it was a pretty euphoric virtual experience. The game was fun but just couldn't maintain many people's attention, even mine, but my point is I didn't need anything besides stereo vision and 6dof head tracking. I didn't need arms for immersion. And I don't believe in terms of VR design philosophy any game that gives you arms should spend the time and effort incorporating melee, because it's an entire can of gameplay concept worms. I wish it was as simple as saying "just add melee". Would that be making them better, more immersive? Is a VR game, by nature, better if it's more immersive? I love boneworks but people despise it. It's polarizing. I want a middle ground for the next half life game. It's more immersive. I can't say I didn't want to be Gordon Freeman in my mech suit with a crowbar windmilling through alien hives in European sewers but I can say I thought aIyx was a very very fun game that I couldn't put down until I finished it Lemming is right in that in the future games will blossom out from Alyx, a very polished, demure but spooky shooting game with a fair amount of world interactivity and secrets but you can't BONK
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Feb 26, 2023 03:48
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:Well like, I'm not going to criticise Wario Land 4 for not having a detailed troop management metagame, should I really criticise Alyx for not allowing me to throw my gun up in the air and catch it with my other hand? What you're missing is you're judging the game based on when it released, not when it was made. We're judging it based on the fact it was designed in the early days of VR development and never revised. It's where all their "Well Melee doesn't work" stuff and the odd UI choices come from, and rings hollow, because the statements like "Oh, we couldn't make Melee work so we didn't" were only really maybe true circa 2016-2017-ish. Come 2018 you see a bunch of titles like Sairento and Blade of Sorcery appear with really fun melee play appear. Ditto for the stuck-to-hand guns is really only an early-VR thing, with newer titles doing stuff like just tethering the gun to your avatar so it hangs off you, or teleporting it back to its holster/inventory, if you really care not to lose it. Half-Life Alyx isn't a bad game, but it would've benefited from a pause mid-development to just take a look at the state of VR games and re-evaluate its design language to see what'd changed in the interim, because VR game design has iterated rapidly over the years.
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Feb 26, 2023 04:05
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Nocheez posted:Bro, you just don't sound intelligent right now. It's a good thing you aren't in the game industry with that attitude.
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Feb 26, 2023 04:25
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It's hilarious that No Man's Sky's UI doesn't follow your view if you don't use the stick to turn. But I'm not going to lie, it's kind of nice to have a clean view in front of you and the ability to check your health and objectives quickly by looking over your shoulder. I haven't played multiplayer, but I assume my character model looks like it's constantly running backwards
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Feb 26, 2023 04:27
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Alyx also had the burden of propping up their refreshed vr hardware and had to ship before people got bored and played dota at work instead.
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Feb 26, 2023 04:33
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EbolaIvory posted:I'm so glad so many of you are not actually in the industry making games. Ya'll lack imagination. we'll just have to take your word that your game is full of imagination. EbolaIvory posted:Something as simple as melee colliders in something like half life should be standard. Its the kind of game you'll instinctively want to bash something and for some reason can't. Great immersion. lmfao expectations =/= immersion I was more immersed because of the level design of Jeff, not because I couldn't smack zombies with crowbars. And bullshit that adding melee is adding a collider with damage or wahtever the gently caress. have you even played Saints and sinners. Have you played boneworks. gently caress have you even played the game with the wobbly weapons. There's so much you have to put into it besides "damage modifier when collider moves at X speed towards this point" or whatevevr. In saints and sinners you grab people's heads and drive screwdrivers in, and they get stuck. You have to pull them out. You have to learn different weapons and how they move. They get stuck into zombos and other things and they are not just "simple". Holy poo poo. It's the same with blade and sorcery. You have zombies and you have combine. Now we have to do death gurgles for knife wounds. Now we have to figure out how they react to crowbars + pikes + lead pipes... stabbing, slashing, clubbing... how will AI react? We have giant bugs. How do we handle melee with giant loving bugs? Blade and sorcery has different armor types. Would the different armor zombies need you do find a stabbing weapon, because slashing weapons and clubs would be ineffective? A crowbar would do jack poo poo in alyx's hands against a zombie. Even a loving combine could probably tank two solid hits. And then what, they start melee combat with you? No they shoot you dead. Now you have melee. Okay, poo poo, are we going to have melee characters fighting back? Will we have combine without guns to have melee fights with? How do we incorporate melee better into our game so it feels a part of the flow of combat, and not just, "hey, I have a loving rod, let me club some poo poo until I feel bored", there has to be interaction, something. To that end the melee enemies in blade and sorcery are still just running lovely animations when you get close, and then mirroring your arm input to "en garde" and match your sword. It's cheesy and definitely not AAA. And the melee in boneworks is also trash - it's physically based but the enemies are all pincushions besides the enemies you're supposed to fight with firearms (almost all of them) ON TOP considering player poses -you're going from people barely raising their arms, and barely raising their heart-rate (with just shooting) to making people move WAY the gently caress more because everyone is going to be swinging around trying to bat aliens out of the air. Not that raising your heart rate is bad, but it's a damned design decision to focus on shooting. "just add melee" "just tighten up the graphics on level 3" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRWvfMLl4ho TIP posted:truly "you can't criticize a game for the choices it makes" is the big brain take and will lead to a wonderful thread of VR discussion truly "missing the point" is the biggest brain take, dayum forest spirit fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 05:46
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Jeff being the standout part of Alyx is the best argument I can think of against the rest of the game. It put you in the position of needing to interact with the environment directly through not just rooting through cupboards, but needing to pay attention to the bottles and containers falling, holding your hand over your mouth to avoid coughing, watching for headcrabs that are knocking off bottles, slamming a cupboard shut when it turns out those things are inside, etc. You need to consider and move and touch the space in ways you don't in the rest of the game. For the rest you're just very straightforwardly grabbing glowing things and shooting the sparsely laid enemies in the head every so often Edit: and people want melee because they want to touch and feel the environment, that's how we form our connections to the places we're in. We touch stuff, grab things, walk around, etc. When you're a tourist in a sliding, floating/teleporting vehicle and you just point at the things you want to die like in most stick/teleportation shooters, it's just not that engaging
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Feb 26, 2023 05:53
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Getting back into VR for exercise/fitness sake, and I have Beat Saber and Pistol Whip and they're great. However, since I'm also taking up martial arts, I'd like something that incorporates a bit more footwork and open hand strikes. I do remember seeing, in passing, some boxing or punch-centric VR games. What are the ones that you'd recommend to supplement a workout regimen, especially for a beginner (playing Hard on BS, Normal in Pistol Whip)?
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Feb 26, 2023 05:54
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forest spirit posted:we'll just have to take your word that your game is full of imagination. Except you don't need a massively in-depth melee system to make something fun. Half-Life Alyx has all of about, oh,nine enemy types overall, I think (3 soldiers, 1 or 2 zombies and 3 Headcrabs, something like that?) , and the relevant zombie types only need to react to a bludgeoning impact so you've got a lot of leeway in your animations. Hell you could just borrow the ones from prior Half Life games that already react dynamically to crowbar and physics impacts. Especially when for a basic headcrab all that you need to do is put the body in a corpse state, splatter their goo underneath, and let physics take it over to properly create Headcrab Go Squish. The Antlions are actually a pretty easy solve if you really want to integrate a melee element to them. Smack the legs with something heavy, put them in a ragdoll state or force a knocked-over animation to "trip" them. Doesn't have to kill them or hurt them, but makes them manageable for a moment for the player to reload. You don't even need to assume the player swings hard enough either, just let them swing and any impact above a slow gentle tap will do for accessibility and let people feel like they're strong enough to squish headcrabs or bat headcrabs off zombie hosts.
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Feb 26, 2023 06:00
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Lemming posted:Edit: and people want melee because they want to touch and feel the environment, that's how we form our connections to the places we're in. We touch stuff, grab things, walk around, etc. When you're a tourist in a sliding, floating/teleporting vehicle and you just point at the things you want to die like in most stick/teleportation shooters, it's just not that engaging Lemming man I go on vacation to these beautiful places, and even without a gun or a sci-fi world to entrance me I don't feel the need to start beating everything around me with a rod to engage with it and I don't think games need that too. Normal FPS games don't have melee and you're supposed to be able to keep your attention on them. I can't do that in loving VR? Without also needing a rod to smash poo poo? Because as far as I remember you could pretty much pick up and gently caress around with a lot of stuff in Alyx. And then you move on because it's toys, and there is a game to get to And there were plenty of interactions exactly like you mention in Alyx, interactions like playing piano, with markers, all of the bottles with that neat shader they added, all of the things you can pull with the gloves, opening doors for cover, grabbing grenades from across the room, the doodads in the labs you come across I imagined all of these scenarios as well when I thought about it for two seconds and yeah it's very easy to come up with game ideas but good luck telling the people at valve in their highly polished VR game you want to reuse animations from Half-Life 2 crowbar hits for when you waggle near zombies in their flagship VR game Like yes all of those are possible, but that's so much more loving game design, holy poo poo, it's like I'm taking crazy pills and "Good VR melee game mechanics" is just something you can tick on in Unity now forest spirit fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 06:02
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forest spirit posted:I imagined all of these scenarios as well when I thought about it for two seconds and yeah it's very easy to come up with game ideas but good luck telling the people at valve in their highly polished VR game you want to reuse animations from Half-Life 2 crowbar hits for when you waggle near zombies in their flagship VR game I've got some news for you if you sincerely think developers don't heavily reuse their asset libraries for new projects.
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Feb 26, 2023 06:08
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forest spirit posted:Lemming man I go on vacation to these beautiful places, and even without a gun or a sci-fi world to entrance me I don't feel the need to start beating everything around me with a rod to engage with it and I don't think games need that too. I'm not saying melee is the only way to satisfy that urge, but I think when people are asking for melee it's a symptom of feeling like something is missing, and my guess as to what is missing is that physical connection, which is only emphasized in Alyx in a few specific parts. Again, it's all part of why Jeff was the best part of the game by far, because you were doing more of those interesting things and were able to develop a much stronger connection to the environment and game as a result
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Feb 26, 2023 06:08
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Neddy Seagoon posted:What you're missing is you're judging the game based on when it released, not when it was made. We're judging it based on the fact it was designed in the early days of VR development and never revised. It's where all their "Well Melee doesn't work" stuff and the odd UI choices come from, and rings hollow, because the statements like "Oh, we couldn't make Melee work so we didn't" were only really maybe true circa 2016-2017-ish. Come 2018 you see a bunch of titles like Sairento and Blade of Sorcery appear with really fun melee play appear. Ditto for the stuck-to-hand guns is really only an early-VR thing, with newer titles doing stuff like just tethering the gun to your avatar so it hangs off you, or teleporting it back to its holster/inventory, if you really care not to lose it. I think that's all fair, Alyx in many ways set VR back, but we're not getting that killer game/app/whatever that will set things forward. I think there is a poverty of imagination in Alyx, which is sad to see.
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Feb 26, 2023 06:14
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