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YggdrasilTM posted:And how do you hide from lifesense? Put on something charged with negative energy to help obscure your positive energy? The rules can't cover every bit of edge case cleverness a PC might come up with, but they suggest a framework to handle it. Its similar to the rules for Assisted Recovery when removing a source of persistent damage. Two of us had been hit by Enervation, we poured Ghost Charge on ourselves to make the recovery check easier after the fight.
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Feb 26, 2023 23:12
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| # ? May 25, 2024 18:05 |
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I'll rephrase: how can you use your hide and stealth skills to hide from lifesense? Because from the examples I'm getting it's like if the only answer to "how do you hide from sight" was "you drink an invisibility potion". Yeah, I'm sure the wizard or the cleric can cast some "invisible to lifesense" crap on the party, thank you very much. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 23:21
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you...make things up? I paint myself in ashes and hide a bone under my tongue because I have the Occult skill trained and know this will help me hide, which I roll Stealth to do. Lifesense is fictional, it is made up, the reason you don't know the real world actions to take to defeat it like you do hearing is it is not real. You have to invent a fictional way to do it.. This is how fiction works.
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Feb 26, 2023 23:28
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Walk around in a cardboard box, wrap yourself in zombie guts, etc
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Feb 26, 2023 23:29
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This entire discussion should be the thread title
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Feb 26, 2023 23:29
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how do you convince people you have no life? well,
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Feb 26, 2023 23:31
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YggdrasilTM posted:And how do you hide from lifesense? MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 23:34
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MadScientistWorking posted:Easy. Lifesense doesn't say it circumvents line of sight so why can't you do what you do normally? The safety precautions come off as you doing it to avoid contact standing out in the middle of open. Oh, so it's just a fancy darkvision?
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Feb 26, 2023 23:39
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It's a sense. You hide from it the same way you hide from any other sense. Hide from smell? Cover yourself in a different scent. Hide from hearing? Be quiet, etc etc etc.
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Feb 26, 2023 23:43
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Mors Rattus posted:Lifesense is fictional, it is made up, the reason you don't know the real world actions to take to defeat it like you do hearing is it is not real. You have to invent a fictional way to do it.. This is how fiction works. I think this depends on whether you see "the player must explain what they do" as being: a) a way to fill in what would otherwise be an unsatisfying detail in the story, or b) a checking/balancing factor to prevent the PC taking nonsensical actions. If b) is the case, allowing "by magic" as an explanation obviously bypasses all those checks and balances. And Pathfinder 2e is not known for being a narrative game. quote:It's a sense. You hide from it the same way you hide from any other sense. Hide from smell? Cover yourself in a different scent. Hide from hearing? Be quiet, etc etc etc. So for lifesense you.. stop living?
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Feb 26, 2023 23:49
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hyphz posted:
Can't imagine a million possible ways to hide your living essence in this fantasy role playing game with like 200 Occult spells
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Feb 26, 2023 23:51
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hyphz posted:So for lifesense you.. stop living? Cover yourself in nonliving things? Make sure no exposed skin?
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Feb 26, 2023 23:52
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YggdrasilTM posted:Oh, so it's just a fancy darkvision?
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Feb 26, 2023 23:52
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The feat that lets you bypass needing to explain what you do literally gives an example of how you defeated lifesense. It literally says it. You soaked in ashes for so long that you automatically do not register as alive if someone with lifesense isn't paying close attention and no longer need to do anything to make that happen. Logically you could then soak yourself in ashes before starting sneaking to defeat lifesense temporarily in the same manner without the feat. Because it literally says that is how it works. Or, you know, come up with any fiction along the same lines.
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Feb 26, 2023 23:53
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Ok, I'll mime to be a zombie then.
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Feb 27, 2023 00:00
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Feb 27, 2023 00:03
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Yeah, this should work too.
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Feb 27, 2023 00:07
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I'm hiding from lifesense right now by reading this goddamn conversation.
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Feb 27, 2023 00:10
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I would kill your character and not invite you back to a game after that entire exchange and your response.
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Feb 27, 2023 00:11
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Did I fall into reddit?
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Feb 27, 2023 00:17
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Lowtax's Irreversible Escape
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Feb 27, 2023 00:27
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A sidebar or section discussing if lifesense was intentionally meant to defeat stealth without the feat or specific magic seems like it would've been good to include. If not, ways for a regular stealth check to avoid it, even if just as prompts for GMs and players would've made sense, given this conversation.
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Feb 27, 2023 00:37
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My brain hurts
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Feb 27, 2023 00:38
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whistling as I smooth my brain out with an iron
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Feb 27, 2023 00:58
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Settle down now, folks, there's no need to be mean to your fellow posters for maybe disagreeing about exactly how much explanation some obscure game mechanic needs.
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Feb 27, 2023 01:10
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Splicer posted:I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you do a thing badly it will be done badly? Yes! That's why I'm pointing out examples of it done well vs examples of it done poorly. Siivola's original statement was that 4E's keyword system would be a bad fit for modern day audiences because they make it difficult to parse what things do at a glance. I said no, they gave an example of PF2E's keywords causing the problem they were describing, a few people then showed actual examples of 4E keywords, and Silvona realised that the brutal technical incompetence of Paizo's design team had driven out the memories of how smooth an actually well implemented keyword system is. Conversation has moved on from here but I'd just as soon pretend it hasn't, so... My point is about the specific considerations that go into writing a good keyword-based system, and that to write an RPG with a good keyword system you need someone who is coordinating keywords. I haven't played 4E in a long time, but let's take a quick look at how they organized keywords for powers: Source Keywords: Arcane, Divine, Martial, Psionic; 4E registers the source of powers for PCs. I haven't played for a long time but these keywords don't seem very helpful when, say, Cleric powers all have the Divine keyword. I suppose they matter for multiclassing, but I don't think these keywords came up in play much, so they may not be needed. Focus Keywords: Implement, Weapon. Tells you what kind of item you use to focus the power. This matters, but listing the keyword is more convenience than anything else, because IIRC all weapon-focused powers dealt damage based on the weapon and all implement powers listed a damage die type for the power independent of the implement. Useful for whoever is coding the digital character sheet, no doubt. And very useful for monster powers. Element Keywords: Acid, Cold, Fire, etc. Logical, though powers with these keywords always deal damage of that type, so you could just use the damage listing instead of consulting a keyword here. I can't determine whether an acid-immune monster is immune to all effects from a power with the Acid keyword or just ignores the damage, mainly because I don't own the DMG/MM and MM3 doesn't explain immunities. 4E avoids the "different weapons do different damage types" problem by having weapon-based powers do either untyped damage or adding an element and that damage type. Type Keywords: Charm, Conjuration, Fear, Healing, Illusion, Sleep, Teleportation, Zone. Provide important information classifying the power. I'm a little dubious about "Sleep" as a type simply because it comes up so rarely, but OK. The others all clearly matter at least some of the time. Type keywords are necessary for gameplay. I'd argue that Element and Focus keywords are a matter of convenience, because they repeat information that a power gives you elsewhere in its writeup. Source keywords almost certainly exist as metadata more than anything else, as otherwise you could just define all "racial" powers as unsourced, and all other powers as sourced based on their classes, because this comes up hardly ever in play. But I don't know if WotC ever released a 4E class that had a mixture of arcane and martial powers, in which case you would want these keywords for everyone. Note that each category is distinct, and few categories have a lot of keywords. Element keywords are the most extensive, but you don't need to know any information beyond the keyword: there's no need to look up "Force" in the glossary to figure out what that means. Some of the type keywords work the same way: you shouldn't need to look up Charm, Fear, or Healing. Conjuration, Illusion, and Zone are a bit more complex, although Zone at least is also built into the power description in other ways. If you add keywords in the future to some categories, that doesn't really change the complexity of the system: adding Psionic to Source keywords doesn't matter much. Adding half a dozen more Damage keywords is undesirable because existing monsters can't be vulnerable/resistant/immune to them. Adding a half dozen more Type keywords probably makes the game much more complicated: for example, if you suddenly want to differentiate between an illusion and a phantasm, you're increasing the system complexity. But you also need someone supervising new keywords. Suppose the PHB 3 comes out adding psionics to the system, only the designers decide psionic classes should have the Source keyword "Psychic" and not "Psionic"? Suddenly you have a duplicate keyword! The longer a system exists and the more the designers rotate responsibilities, the more vital it is to have a master document that controls keywords and a lead designer who watches new keywords closely to keep things as simple as possible. Even 4E, which handled keywords as well as any system I've encountered, may have had more keywords than it absolutely needed.
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Feb 27, 2023 01:38
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some of yall haven't read that viral Tumblr post about a d&D group of 9 year Olds sneaking by a zombie Warren by singing "sleeeeep.... zooom-bies sleeep" and it shows
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Feb 27, 2023 02:41
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YggdrasilTM posted:I'll rephrase: how can you use your hide and stealth skills to hide from lifesense? Because from the examples I'm getting it's like if the only answer to "how do you hide from sight" was "you drink an invisibility potion". Truly not trying to beat a dead horse. I'm bringing it up more for my own education than anything. But why isn't Foil Senses a viable option in this case? You can take it as a general or skill feat as long as you are a master in stealth, which if you're a stealth character seems like an inevitability. I feel like I must be missing something.
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Feb 27, 2023 06:52
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Narsham posted:Source Keywords: Arcane, Divine, Martial, Psionic; 4E registers the source of powers for PCs. I haven't played for a long time but these keywords don't seem very helpful when, say, Cleric powers all have the Divine keyword. I suppose they matter for multiclassing, but I don't think these keywords came up in play much, so they may not be needed. I don't know how much it was supported by the rules but I always thought that these gave something of a sub-role. Divine powers are all somewhat leader-ish, Martial powers give you a striker tone, all the Arcane powers have some controller-like elements and so on.
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Feb 27, 2023 07:11
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YggdrasilTM posted:I don't know how much it was supported by the rules but I always thought that these gave something of a sub-role. Divine powers are all somewhat leader-ish, Martial powers give you a striker tone, all the Arcane powers have some controller-like elements and so on. To a degree, yeah. It wasn't always consistent but there definitely was a general theme they were going for that tied in fluff and mechanics.
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Feb 27, 2023 08:13
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Source Keywords: Arcane, Divine, Martial, Psionic; 4E registers the source of powers for PCs. I haven't played for a long time but these keywords don't seem very helpful when, say, Cleric powers all have the Divine keyword. I suppose they matter for multiclassing, but I don't think these keywords came up in play much, so they may not be needed.[/quote] Metadata/design notes and could be dropped. quote:Focus Keywords: Implement, Weapon. Tells you what kind of item you use to focus the power. This matters, but listing the keyword is more convenience than anything else, because IIRC all weapon-focused powers dealt damage based on the weapon and all implement powers listed a damage die type for the power independent of the implement. Useful for whoever is coding the digital character sheet, no doubt. And very useful for monster powers. There were some powers that only did static data - and weapons had proficiency bonuses but implements didn't. But, cutting the rest, there were some actually functional keywords. The only three that come to mind are Reliable (this power not expended on a miss - almost always martial daily powers), Invigorating (gains a few THP) and Rattling (If you have Intimidate trained inflicts an attack debuff until EonT). This category was from memory martial only, and I think rattling was rogue exclusive and in one of the Martial Powers. It never really caught on much for good reason (while PF2 of course has gone all in).
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Feb 27, 2023 11:18
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Rattling would be a major disadvantage for a rogue, everyone could hear you when you tried to sneak around.
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Feb 27, 2023 11:27
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Arcane/divine/etc came up usually in multiclassing and paragon archetypes. Where you'd get bonuses that only applied to arcane attacks or whatever. And implement vs weapon matters because as mentioned it determines where the bonuses come from and if you get weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll.
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Feb 27, 2023 15:03
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Finster Dexter posted:But why isn't Foil Senses a viable option in this case? You can take it as a general or skill feat as long as you are a master in stealth, which if you're a stealth character seems like an inevitability. I feel like I must be missing something. It depends on your interpretation of the statement that “you have to describe the precautions you take to avoid special senses.” If you take the narrative approach, that you can just make up anything you like that sounds good, that works. If you take the OSR approach, that coming up with the description is a necessary part of the challenge to ensure that the action makes sense, then it doesn’t work because the description of lifesense is too vague to identify what would make sense and there is no real world standard to compare to. If you assume that Foil Senses removes the need for a description then it works.
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Feb 27, 2023 15:25
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hyphz posted:there is no real world standard to compare to. There are literally thousands of years of real world magical bullshit to compare to and all of it is at least as sensical as D&D.
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Feb 27, 2023 15:31
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NinjaDebugger posted:There are literally thousands of years of real world magical bullshit to compare to and all of it is at least as sensical as D&D. Lifesense was like blindsight in pathfinder 1e, for what is worth.
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Feb 27, 2023 15:38
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NinjaDebugger posted:There are literally thousands of years of real world magical bullshit to compare to and all of it is at least as sensical as D&D. What are some examples from the real world, for how to hide from the undead who can sense you (without eyes or wearing a mummy mask or w/e) purely because you're alive? Like I'm not a mythology expert but I'm wondering if we have any in the house who can give some interesting examples. That could actually give me some fun ideas to put into a game. e. I feel like "cover yourself in ashes" is a Predator reference but that was mud I think and obviously the Predator alien wasn't an undead monster, so maybe that's a reach.
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Feb 27, 2023 18:39
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If you want real world references, typically to avoid being noticed by supernatural beings you carry protective charms or amulets, say certain prayers and/or wear specific substances or have clothes with certain patterns worked into them. The specifics will vary wildly by where you are and what specific entity you’re trying to avoid, of course.
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Feb 27, 2023 18:48
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To evade {vampires} carry a {holy symbol} and wear a {necklace of garlic}. Simple as.
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Feb 27, 2023 18:57
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Mors Rattus posted:If you want real world references, typically to avoid being noticed by supernatural beings you carry protective charms or amulets, say certain prayers and/or wear specific substances or have clothes with certain patterns worked into them. The specifics will vary wildly by where you are and what specific entity you’re trying to avoid, of course. the classic example on video from most of our childhoods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDWR5RkWRTY
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Feb 27, 2023 19:07
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