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Chewbecca posted:I think this is true - some people wfh and are a powerhouse of productivity and some people wfh and take the piss. The issue then isn't to do with remote work as a concept, it's to do with management and accountability and workflows. The people who wfh and consistently gently caress around do so because they get away with it and nobody is holding them to it My guess would be those same people also screw around at work, but it's probably more obvious/evident.
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Mar 3, 2023 16:50
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withoutclass posted:My guess would be those same people also screw around at work, but it's probably more obvious/evident. Yeah exactly, 100% - wfh just means now they are also watching netflix while jiggling their mouse In my mind, the location of work for idiot office workers like me shouldn’t matter (and of course there are exceptions). What matters is that there is work to be completed and I complete it and there is evidence of it. If I finish early of an arvo and gently caress around on the internet nobody should or would care because I so consistently get poo poo done and if something else needs doing I just do it. The people who just gently caress around consistently for the most part don't hold themselves accountable in the same way, and aren't held accountable by management. Idk, maybe I'm missing something but I just feel so many of these issues that workplaces try to solve with poo poo like Time Doctor are really just down to managers not being able to say to people "please do x by the end of next week" and then following up with "explain to me why x wasn't done". Then everyone suffers with return to work mandates.
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Mar 3, 2023 17:04
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We can't hire anyone because people just don't want to work anymore! 
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Mar 3, 2023 17:15
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They really want to see how good you are at faking happiness.
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Mar 3, 2023 17:17
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Yeah, just because you walk into an office doesn't mean you're getting work done. gently caress I can remember a couple days at my last job where I'd just sit in my office and bullshit about sports with the guy next door. Like the entire 8 hours, one extended bull session, because neither of us really had anything on our plates. I understand the argument that junior staff members lose out from not getting one on one mentorship in the office, but the flip side is that those same junior staff members are the ones most financially disadvantaged by having to commute. If some senior person drawing six figures a year needs to drive for 45 minutes to come in it's annoying, but they can afford it. Chances are that if they have kids that they're also old enough to deal with them spending an extra hour and a half a day getting to and from work. But if you're some 32 year old with a 1 year old kid who makes 65k/yr? Suddenly the transport costs are a whole lot less negligible, childcare costs go through the roof, and the time you're missing out with your kid is a lot more important. In a perfect world if in-person office time is so important a lot of these companies should relocate to cities with better commuting situations. Moving your office someplace that your rank and file can afford to live within 20 minutes of the office would do a lot fix all the reasons people don't want to return in the first place.
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Mar 3, 2023 17:18
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Chewbecca posted:Yeah exactly, 100% - wfh just means now they are also watching netflix while jiggling their mouse So what I'm picking up here is, the middle management being expected to actually manage their reports is failing, so instead of a bit of the ol gitgud they're just hauling people back in? That tracks, actually
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Mar 3, 2023 17:20
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McGavin posted:We can't hire anyone because people just don't want to work anymore! I would slam the x on that browser so fast lol
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Mar 3, 2023 17:37
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Chewbecca posted:I would slam the x on that browser so fast lol I mean, they're inviting you to send them a video. You'd probably nuke any bridges and reputation you might have if it's a small industry, but there is some real potential for loving around there.
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Mar 3, 2023 17:38
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They boringly want you to use a video hosting service tho. You can't goatse them on like YouTube or whatever
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Mar 3, 2023 17:49
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Jack-Off Lantern posted:They boringly want you to use a video hosting service tho. You can't goatse them on like YouTube or whatever They just tell you to paste a link. Host that poo poo yourself. Give them 2-3 minutes of your cat licking itself if you're feeling generous
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Mar 3, 2023 17:57
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I refused to apply for jobs where they made me record a video of myself answering their "what color is the sky in your world" questions. I missed a golden opportunity to send them videos of people describing their funkos in detail.
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Mar 3, 2023 18:02
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Azuth0667 posted:From HR postings and personal experience, nobody wants to do OTJ anyway. They want you to come in with 10 years experience in a technique that has only existed for 1 year. Every job I've had that wasn't an internship, OTJ was drinking from the firehouse until you stopped failing. And experience level expected was equal to everyone else in the group was no matter what was in the posting. My last job was in a department of Gen Xers and aging Millennials, all experienced. Then we got a new grad who knew nothing. He took over someone's old desk and was expected to learn the job as he went. No one else was resonsible for his success. He didnt even know the right questions to ask, and when he did no one really wanted to help. Being in the office did not matter. When COVID hit, we had layoffs. They said it was completely random, but the ones picked from our department were the new grad and the guy who always had whiskey on his breath. Oh also he wasn't white. Maybe that had something do with no one wanting to help.
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Mar 3, 2023 18:08
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Full lip sync video of Life's Been Good by Joe Walsh (with air guitar).
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Mar 3, 2023 18:11
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Holland Oates posted:I refused to apply for jobs where they made me record a video of myself answering their "what color is the sky in your world" questions. I missed a golden opportunity to send them videos of people describing their funkos in detail. I applied to a few places like this when I wasn’t really desperate for another job so I could afford to be picky, and every time one of them tried to pull that poo poo on me I told whatever HR monkey who was trying to set it up that I didn’t want to continue with the application because it seemed like they couldn’t be bothered to make the time to actually interview me properly, so why should I want to work for them? They’d usually get super defensive and upset about it.
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Mar 3, 2023 18:12
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Pyrtanis posted:So what I'm picking up here is, the middle management being expected to actually manage their reports is failing, so instead of a bit of the ol gitgud they're just hauling people back in? That tracks, actually I wonder if the trend of leaning out middle management has just made it impossible for managers to actually do their jobs, and they're wrongly blaming that on wfh. I've had up to 20 direct reports while also being the relationship manager for like 5 internal departments and maybe 20 external partners. You have to either ignore like 75% of what comes at you or just be completely ineffective but that assumes you have a boss that will have your back.
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Mar 3, 2023 18:17
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I was once involved in an interview process that involved a phone pre-screening, a panel interview, then a presentation to the entire team of 25+ people (?!). I emailed after the interview to remove myself from the running because I was sure as poo poo not doing a presentation to that amount of random people who could then inform my current employer I am shopping around? They only told me about the presentation during the panel interview so I Mona Lisa smiled and then got tf outta there lol
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Mar 3, 2023 18:18
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COPE 27 posted:I wonder if the trend of leaning out middle management has just made it impossible for managers to actually do their jobs, and they're wrongly blaming that on wfh. The thing about being a middle manager is that you have actual work activities to do, plus all the responsibilities of leading a team and managing workload. It's usually 1.5 jobs in one and people choose which elements to let slide. And nobody wants to be the "bad guy". I have been a middle manager so I get it, I also won't ever do it again
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Mar 3, 2023 18:20
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And then you get random poo poo like "chauffer these VIPs for 2 days with zero notice"
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Mar 3, 2023 18:27
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History Comes Inside! posted:I applied to a few places like this when I wasn’t really desperate for another job so I could afford to be picky, and every time one of them tried to pull that poo poo on me I told whatever HR monkey who was trying to set it up that I didn’t want to continue with the application because it seemed like they couldn’t be bothered to make the time to actually interview me properly, so why should I want to work for them? They prob get super defensive about it because it was their team's harebrained scheme to implement it, and they don't want to explain to higher ups why candidates are dropping out in record numbers COPE 27 posted:And then you get random poo poo like "chauffer these VIPs for 2 days with zero notice" Oh god yeah, so much random poo poo, micro crises with short deadlines, reports needed by 5 you hear about at 4, unhappy people coming at you from all sides, who can be bothered
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Mar 3, 2023 18:31
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Chewbecca posted:I was once involved in an interview process that involved a phone pre-screening, a panel interview, then a presentation to the entire team of 25+ people (?!). I emailed after the interview to remove myself from the running because I was sure as poo poo not doing a presentation to that amount of random people who could then inform my current employer I am shopping around? This sounds normal to me tbh for some jobs. Two of my previous places of employment scheduled me for an entire 8 hour day for the interview. Both had me run a presentation and both took me to lunch. There were also interviews with my potential coworkers who would fill out eval sheets at the end. This was in 2006 and again in 2012. The last place still runs interviews like this and I've participated in many of them. It's actually been incredibly helpful for my own interview performance, so that was nice. My current job didn't have as long of a process, but still interviews with team mates.
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Mar 3, 2023 18:51
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Maybe if they told me from the jump, but even then I would have withdrawn lol I have gotten much higher paid jobs with just a panel interview which included a presentations so idk what these people were on Also:   btw lol
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Mar 3, 2023 18:57
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Salami Surgeon posted:Every job I've had that wasn't an internship, OTJ was drinking from the firehouse until you stopped failing. And experience level expected was equal to everyone else in the group was no matter what was in the posting. No manner of processes or systems or policy can work if you have a team full of human garbage
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Mar 3, 2023 19:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:In a perfect world if in-person office time is so important a lot of these companies should relocate to cities with better commuting situations. Moving your office someplace that your rank and file can afford to live within 20 minutes of the office would do a lot fix all the reasons people don't want to return in the first place. Just constant big brain HR stuff going on for a job I can do 75% on a beach or in a cabin. There are perks but it's nothing a out of college junior would understand or maybe want not having been exposed to the business. Basically travel caps and job security. We do a brisk business in atypical juniors who recognize this, basically people changing careers or older graduates but that's an obviously tiny pool compared to the infinite well of college grads.
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Mar 3, 2023 19:26
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Azuth0667 posted:From HR postings and personal experience, nobody wants to do OTJ anyway. They want you to come in with 10 years experience in a technique that has only existed for 1 year. Wonder if anyone has called this out, I've heard many stories of wonky job descriptions like these. Either someone just copy/pasted a bunch of crap with no research, or alternately they're testing applicants' attention to detail & hoping someone calls it out. Stupid as hell regardless.
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Mar 3, 2023 19:54
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BOOTY-ADE posted:Wonder if anyone has called this out, I've heard many stories of wonky job descriptions like these. Either someone just copy/pasted a bunch of crap with no research, or alternately they're testing applicants' attention to detail & hoping someone calls it out. Stupid as hell regardless. I have and its funny but not satisfying. The answer is the people making the postings usually don't know what they're doing or in one case the company was making it deliberately impossible to satisfy in hopes they could scam h1b visas then pay those people very poorly.
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Mar 3, 2023 20:08
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My assumption re: those kind of job postings is that in least in some cases the hiring manager sent through their requirements (e.g. "must know x") and then the HR person attached the arbitrary year amount of experience as commensurate with the salary
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Mar 3, 2023 20:10
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shamelessly stolen from the PYF images thread:
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Mar 3, 2023 20:48
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Perfect, no notes
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Mar 3, 2023 21:04
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BOOTY-ADE posted:Wonder if anyone has called this out, I've heard many stories of wonky job descriptions like these. Either someone just copy/pasted a bunch of crap with no research, or alternately they're testing applicants' attention to detail & hoping someone calls it out. Stupid as hell regardless. I've actually tried to report job advertisements that broke labour law and never once heard back from ministry of labour or the ad platform
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Mar 3, 2023 21:27
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Chewbecca posted:My assumption re: those kind of job postings is that in least in some cases the hiring manager sent through their requirements (e.g. "must know x") and then the HR person attached the arbitrary year amount of experience as commensurate with the salary That's exactly the case. This happened when trying to backfill me in the job I just left that listed needing 10+ years using SAP in our environment, but it's only been around for eight. It's not as bad as it could be, but the guide of "just use X number of years for Y level employee" probably cost them a couple additional people to evaluate because the company used to have a very strict "you need to have the exact qualifications listed" rule. This started to be a major problem when it was decided that if you had a title with "Engineer," even if it was a project engineer or a IT job you would need to have an engineering degree. There was a minor revolt over this because managers weren't getting applications through the HR filter, even when jobs were opened up for specific people who didn't need engineering degrees to do, in some cases, the jobs they were already doing as contractors. happyhippy posted:There's been talk about a Return to Work for ages now, but recent rumors about my place forcing a return to work to make people leave. My company learned from trying to not-so-subtly suggest that it wanted us back in the office (sending out multiple surveys about how soon people would want to be back at their desks and having "never" be the overwhelming winner every time, by increasingly large margins, hosed up that plan) that there wasn't a lot of hope in forcing us to come back when we could just leave for a remote position. Also, almost all the managers in the company, up to the CEO, were all working from home full time. That made it really weird that they were saying we had to go back but they would be staying home while telling all of us how great it was going to be for us to see our coworkers in person again. Like, you can see in our system exactly where people are based and everyone in my chain in a management role is "remote," no way in hell I'm driving into the office if the people telling me I need to be there aren't also dealing with that poo poo. I popped into the open positions the other day and almost all new jobs are in person; about a 5 office jobs to 1 remote job. That's painful to see because I sort of kind of moved 4 hours from my "home" office. If I wanted to switch to a new job I would either need to move back or work for my wife, as we moved for her job. You can imagine neither of those are great for me. People move around in this company all the time. I'm on my third job here in a year, I don't know if they think they'll stop people jumping from job to job or something or if they've just decided that we'll be forcing a return to the office by making everything an onsite role so if you change jobs you have to go back in. At least we're not forcing return to work in order to do layoffs without calling them layoffs.
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Mar 3, 2023 21:46
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happyhippy posted:There's a lot of old timers here, and if they resign in protest you don't have to pay them any redundancy. Is there any reason not to say 'Yeah no, I'm not coming in, fire me' to get their redundancy? Aside from not getting a nice reference which may or may not be an issue depending on the industry, individual or level of creativity on the applicant's part.
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Mar 3, 2023 22:08
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Wait, can you care for a child while WFH? Is that the appeal, a de facto raise via subsidized childcare?
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Mar 3, 2023 23:17
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slurm posted:Wait, can you care for a child while WFH? Is that the appeal, a de facto raise via subsidized childcare? Depends how involved your job is and how old the child, but yes.
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Mar 3, 2023 23:19
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Outrail posted:Is there any reason not to say 'Yeah no, I'm not coming in, fire me' to get their redundancy? Aside from not getting a nice reference which may or may not be an issue depending on the industry, individual or level of creativity on the applicant's part. Getting fired isn’t the same as redundancy and depending on employment law in your country and/or individual contracts doesn’t mean you’re entitled to poo poo. Here in the UK redundancy is “your job no longer exists anymore” and they pay you. If you get fired for refusing to do your job (in this case, refusing to return to the office if you’re not contractually guaranteed to be working from home) then you don’t get poo poo.
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Mar 3, 2023 23:20
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Barudak posted:If they wanna pay me to be a patsy they know my rates 16 craploads a year? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o16h6voegFU&t=90s
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Mar 3, 2023 23:38
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Outrail posted:No manner of processes or systems or policy can work if you have a team full of human garbage Yeah but you can set policies or systems where new people are set up for success and human garbage is sifted out. Maybe even policies and systems where you don't need to see people's skin color.
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Mar 4, 2023 00:35
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Chewbecca posted:My assumption re: those kind of job postings is that in least in some cases the hiring manager sent through their requirements (e.g. "must know x") and then the HR person attached the arbitrary year amount of experience as commensurate with the salary 
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Mar 4, 2023 01:10
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Salami Surgeon posted:Yeah but you can set policies or systems where new people are set up for success and human garbage is sifted out. That might be possible one day but I don't think AI can replace all humans just yet.
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Mar 4, 2023 01:51
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Outrail posted:Is there any reason not to say 'Yeah no, I'm not coming in, fire me' to get their redundancy? Aside from not getting a nice reference which may or may not be an issue depending on the industry, individual or level of creativity on the applicant's part. In most states that would be a for-cause termination, which means you might not even get unemployment if they wanna be shits about it. If you wanna be creative, claim you have developed a terrible case of agoraphobia, and suffer commute related anxiety. Make them go through all the motions to provide you those federally mandated accommodations, which will probably end up with WFH continuing and them being petty and going the constructive dismissal route, or they make your position redundant due to no available accommodations (this is a lie because management can WFH fine). Either way you can kick the WFH can down the road a few months while you brush up on your interview skills.
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Mar 4, 2023 02:35
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 Don’t claim a fake disability accommodation. Not only is it lovely for a whole host of reasons, but it poisons the well for the next person who actually needs an accommodation for a real reason. You really don’t want to be the anecdote some rear end in a top hat manager tells around the water cooler to illustrate how labor laws are just a grift for lazy people to avoid doing work.
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Mar 4, 2023 04:47
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