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You gotta bury it regardless, which is the hardest part of this whole ordeal. I would go up a size on AWG since you plan to run a constant pump load plus misc other stuff, you want to start with as much voltage as you can muster. Once it's buried you're just a scope creep away from a full panel. Do you have a friend with a tractor and till you could use to do most of the work for you? I don't know the name of it, but googling I see pictures called a "middle buster / sub soiler" that looks like it would make short work of this. Throw some 10/3 UF in there and call it a day. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-250-ft-10-2-Gray-Solid-CU-UF-B-W-G-Wire-13056755/202316282 $376 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-250-ft-10-3-Gray-Solid-CU-UF-B-W-G-Wire-13059155/202316283 $417 Gets you 240V down there in case you ever want it. https://www.southwire.com/calculator-vdrop is your friend here.
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Feb 28, 2023 20:52
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Subsoilers work great where they work. If they work where OP is at they should be available. They do not work here in the land of clay and shale. You've gotta dig a trench.
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Feb 28, 2023 21:01
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Gotcha. Yeah I am not at all familiar with farm equipment beyond the pto will kill you.
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Feb 28, 2023 21:10
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We talking about like a vibratory plow? That's pretty common here for yards 'n such, and was what I was planning to at least try if I gotta go that deep. The soil I'll be going through is old farm soil, it's not the gnarly stuff on its own. Although I did hit a huge patch of clay when I was trenching for the barn's service. There are also trees about the area but there is an old path that's fairly wide, like 10', if I'm lucky I won't hit any major roots running down the middle...maybe I'll just say f it and trench the thing from the get go. Not worried about any cosmetic affects at all. Will consider just aggressively overspeccing, I guess if I'm renting the equipment to do the majority of the work for me, I might as well.
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Feb 28, 2023 21:11
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H110Hawk posted:I am not at all familiar with farm equipment beyond the pto will kill you. That's the most important part. Bad Munki posted:We talking about like a vibratory plow? That's pretty common here for yards 'n such, and was what I was planning to at least try if I gotta go that deep. The soil I'll be going through is old farm soil, it's not the gnarly stuff on its own. They're basically a spike that gets plunged into the ground that has a loop at the end to guide conduit/water line/whatever down to your set depth. If you're in well worked former field soil that's been prepped to the depth you need one of those will probably work great. But they obvious just don't work at all when you're trying to bring them through places that have large rocks everywhere. Getting them through large sections of clay is gonna require something bigger and heaver than even a full sized utility/chore tractor. So if you can borrow somebody legit plow/seed drill tractor you can probably do it. I'd rent a ditch witch. Motronic fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 21:22
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H110Hawk posted:https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-250-ft-10-2-Gray-Solid-CU-UF-B-W-G-Wire-13056755/202316282 $376 Fun, these are $329 and $335 respectively where I'm at. Geez, do I drop the extra six whole bucks for the third conductor??  Motronic posted:That's the most important part. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Feb 28, 2023 |
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Feb 28, 2023 21:30
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Motronic posted:I'd rent a ditch witch. If you're spending money, spend it on the right thing - a ditch witch. If you're borrowing then there is a lot of stuff you can "make work." If you are owed favors then with enough beer, burgers, and pickaxes you can get it done in a day or two. Bad Munki posted:Will consider just aggressively overspeccing, I guess if I'm renting the equipment to do the majority of the work for me, I might as well. If you want flexibility for the future, without spending 10AWG money now you could put in conduit. I don't know what the plate is on your bubbler. What is it specced at for power draw? Bad Munki posted:Fun, these are $329 and $335 respectively where I'm at. Geez, do I drop the extra six whole bucks for the third conductor??  Hello from Los Angeles, CA. How is a third conductor free where you are?
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Feb 28, 2023 21:32
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H110Hawk posted:If you're spending money, spend it on the right thing - a ditch witch. If you're borrowing then there is a lot of stuff you can "make work." If you are owed favors then with enough beer, burgers, and pickaxes you can get it done in a day or two. I forget but <15A, it's just a lil guy. Conduit has also been considered as well, yup. H110Hawk posted:
I assume it's the movie theater soda pricing scheme. Overcharge on the medium so the large looks like a relatively good deal. 
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Feb 28, 2023 21:34
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Well now if I’m running conduit and 240VAC and putting a sub panel on it, I’m looking at small sheds, like a little 5x4 or something, put it on a gravel pad, and and and I assume such a thing would count as a wet location, wouldn’t it? How does that work with a sub panel? I can’t imagine a 30A 240V GFCI breaker, is that aspect just handled with an appropriate box for the sub panel or what?
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Mar 1, 2023 02:25
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I think you're probably in the market for what amounts to a boat/rv shore power hookup. Which I think requires a PT 4x4 and preferably a bag of concrete. You can also start with a 2 gang box, shared neutral, both gfci, red/white one one, black/white on the other. And a tied breaker.
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Mar 1, 2023 02:29
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Bad Munki posted:Fun, these are $329 and $335 respectively where I'm at. Geez, do I drop the extra six whole bucks for the third conductor?? 2-2-4 USE (direct bury trench wire) would be cheaper and give you future upgrade options. Same area, same price problems with UF. Even 2-2-2-4 USE would be worth it for 240V. You'd need a weather-resistant 2-space 50a subpanel (to overcurrent protect the one outlet you need now) but they're not bad.
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Mar 1, 2023 02:39
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H110Hawk posted:I think you're probably in the market for what amounts to a boat/rv shore power hookup. Which I think requires a PT 4x4 and preferably a bag of concrete. Yeah, I was planning on sinking a post for it all…until I started noodling on sheds.
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Mar 1, 2023 02:40
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Don't forget that whichever method you choose, your wire needs to be protected down to depth. You can't run UF cable at 24", then leave the leg going up your exterior basement wall and into your house exposed and unprotected.
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Mar 1, 2023 07:17
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 so we've got this little drain in our garage below our electrical boxes, it runs from there through some pipes around the garage out to the storm drain, and I've been trying to figure out for a while what purpose it serves. at first I thought it might be to protect the electrical boxes in case of a flooding or something, but that doesn't make any sense as the water level would have to already be well above the storm drain to reach it today it finally hit me that it's probably actually there to catch water coming in through the conduit. is uhh... that normal? something to be concerned about?
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Mar 1, 2023 07:50
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Hell of a drip loop.
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Mar 1, 2023 07:53
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Fellatio del Toro posted:today it finally hit me that it's probably actually there to catch water coming in through the conduit. is uhh... that normal? something to be concerned about? Conduit naturally fills with water if run underground because humidity condenses out of the air inside the cooler pipe. A drain on conduit isn't normal at all, but also isn't something to be concerned about.
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Mar 1, 2023 14:54
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Currently planning on adding 5 additional receptacles on dedicated circuits in my unfinished basement for use with power tools, a table saw etc. My thought is to run 12/3 wire fed by a 20 amp 2-pole GFCI breaker. I'd like to split each receptacle and have one phase on the top outlet and the second phase on the bottom with a shared neutral. Any issue with a set up like that? I know that GFCI protection is required in an unfinished basement but is AFCI as well? I'm in NY and my town doesn't appear to have any additional requirements outside of the NEC that I've found.
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Mar 4, 2023 03:27
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Keebler posted:Currently planning on adding 5 additional receptacles on dedicated circuits in my unfinished basement for use with power tools, a table saw etc. My thought is to run 12/3 wire fed by a 20 amp 2-pole GFCI breaker. I'd like to split each receptacle and have one phase on the top outlet and the second phase on the bottom with a shared neutral. Any issue with a set up like that? I know that GFCI protection is required in an unfinished basement but is AFCI as well? I'm in NY and my town doesn't appear to have any additional requirements outside of the NEC that I've found. Running one phase per outlet sounds like a *really* weird approach. Why not just run 5 20a individual circuits instead? Are you really planning on running two large pieces of machinery at the same time?
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Mar 4, 2023 03:44
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Keebler posted:Currently planning on adding 5 additional receptacles on dedicated circuits in my unfinished basement for use with power tools, a table saw etc. My thought is to run 12/3 wire fed by a 20 amp 2-pole GFCI breaker. I'd like to split each receptacle and have one phase on the top outlet and the second phase on the bottom with a shared neutral. Any issue with a set up like that? I know that GFCI protection is required in an unfinished basement but is AFCI as well? I'm in NY and my town doesn't appear to have any additional requirements outside of the NEC that I've found. It's real weird and real expensive, but no, there's no CODE reason why it's a problem.
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Mar 4, 2023 04:20
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply 5 separate circuits. Just the power provided provided by a single 2-pole breaker: The top outlet of each receptacle wired in parallel to one phase, and the bottoms in parallel to the other phase. Is that still kind of weird? I don't really plan to draw that much power but I wanted to give myself a little buffer vs a single pole 20 amp breaker servicing all 5 receptacles since I really have no other outlets down there. Our builder really skimped on the power in the basement and tied all the basement outlets into existing circuits from other places in the house. The lights in my basement briefly dim whenever my dehumidifier kicks on...
Keebler fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 04:22
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Okay, noodled on the pond power topic for a bit, realized I was risking biting off more than I wanted, and got back to basics. Here's my current shopping list: - A couple hundred feet of 2-2-4 USE-2, cheapest seems to be Menards - 70A max 2-space 4-circuit outdoor panel, I think this one is appropriate? - 1-1/2" sch80 PVC conduit, you'll save big money at Menards - A connector to tie that conduit into the box, also Menards - Not itemized above: a PT ground contact 4x4 to mount the box on, a trencher, conduit clamps, and I think a line box to transit the wall of the shop. The way I see this going is: 1) That 2-2-4 wire tied into a 40-ish amp breaker (should be okay with 50) at the main panel in the shop 2) That runs across the shop to preferred corner, exits the wall through some box I'll pick up, conduit from there until it's at depth in the trench 3) 130' direct burial at 2' depth 4) Meets my 4x4 post, comes up from depth in more conduit into the outdoor panel listed above, ties to the lugs therein 5) I throw some appropriate breakers in there 6) profit That all sound about right? I hemmed and hawed about 240V but there's just no way, if I actually need that down there it'll be extremely temporary and more reasonably served with a generator, so I'll keep this a single pole op. Assuming that all looks right, I think the only other question I have is what's the preferred way to punch out through a steel shop wall into conduit, what I've seen to date tells me a hole saw and a line box? So add that to the list above. In this particular installation, it'll be exiting the interior under the cover of an extended roof, I'm wondering if I can do this without a box? Like can I just run the conduit straight at the wall, put a threaded male fitting on it, pop it through the thing steel wall, and put a nut on the inside to clamp it down? That plus a bushing. I don't mind doing the box but the "straight through" option would be simpler and tidier. Like this:  But imagine that's 1-1/2" conduit, and 2-2-4 wire, and instead of entering a box, it's entering the wall cavity of my shop from outside. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 05:44
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Keebler posted:Sorry, I didn't mean to imply 5 separate circuits. Just the power provided provided by a single 2-pole breaker: The top outlet of each receptacle wired in parallel to one phase, and the bottoms in parallel to the other phase. Is that still kind of weird? I don't really plan to draw that much power but I wanted to give myself a little buffer vs a single pole 20 amp breaker servicing all 5 receptacles since I really have no other outlets down there. Our builder really skimped on the power in the basement and tied all the basement outlets into existing circuits from other places in the house. The lights in my basement briefly dim whenever my dehumidifier kicks on... Follow your bliss. I originally planned to do this in my garage then life got in the way and it's left wall vs right wall. Why do your lights dim? Breakers don't do that.
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Mar 4, 2023 06:20
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H110Hawk posted:Why do your lights dim? Breakers don't do that. Wouldn't that be the fault of the transformer providing service, and/or under-sized service wire?
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Mar 4, 2023 06:29
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Keebler posted:Sorry, I didn't mean to imply 5 separate circuits. Just the power provided provided by a single 2-pole breaker: The top outlet of each receptacle wired in parallel to one phase, and the bottoms in parallel to the other phase. Is that still kind of weird? I don't really plan to draw that much power but I wanted to give myself a little buffer vs a single pole 20 amp breaker servicing all 5 receptacles since I really have no other outlets down there. Our builder really skimped on the power in the basement and tied all the basement outlets into existing circuits from other places in the house. The lights in my basement briefly dim whenever my dehumidifier kicks on... Yeah, this is fine, I did this in my garage, except everywhere is a pair of duplex outlets with each outlet being on a separate leg, rather than top/bottom. But yeah, this should have nothing to do with why your lights dim.....
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Mar 4, 2023 06:42
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Thanks. Yeah, I'm not sure why the lights dim when it kicks on. I had assumed that it was because I was getting close to tripping the breaker but maybe there is something else going on. A pair of duplex outlets isn't a bad idea either. Does an unfinished basement require AFCI?
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Mar 4, 2023 15:22
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Keebler posted:Thanks. Yeah, I'm not sure why the lights dim when it kicks on. I had assumed that it was because I was getting close to tripping the breaker but maybe there is something else going on. How old is your panel? How old is the rest of your wiring? Being slightly pedantic on breakers as if you daisy chain high in rush load devices after (or on the same string as really) lights then the lights will always dim when you fire the device. This could be nowhere near the breaker limit. It's the voltage sag from your power tool getting up to speed.
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Mar 4, 2023 15:49
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Lights dim because of a voltage drop, and breakers trip because of too much amperage being drawn. When things like large motors start up, they can cause a drop in voltage, but because of the relative efficiency of things these days, that's not as big of an issue as it used to be. It seems like these days, most voltage drop is caused by wearing-out transformers or transformers that are undersized for the neighborhoods current needs. The latter seems to be especially common as many of the old houses around the country are now being upgraded to 200+ amp services and using more power on the whole. The appliances are more efficient and don't have a huge start-up demand, but everyone has them, and more of them. Especially since gas appliances are now the big evil. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 15:50
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H110Hawk posted:How old is your panel? How old is the rest of your wiring? Makes sense. The house is new construction, a shade over a year old at this point so both the panel and wiring are new. I was only poking at it because we've discovered, after the fact, that the builder cut corner in a lot of areas.
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Mar 4, 2023 16:28
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Bad Munki posted:
Sorry, was a bit over the top when I said 2-2-4. If you're sure you'll never need more than a 50a service there you could cheapen things up a bit with 6-6-6 USE and a 50a (minimum) subpanel and 50a overcurrent protection (didn't calc voltage drop, maybe 444). Nothing wrong with running 224 down there, was just pointing out that running wire for a 100a service would be as cheap as one UF 12/2 circuit. As far as getting out of your existing panel, a pvc LB on the exterior of the existing building would be simplest if I'm understanding your setup. edit: a ground rod (and bare #6) would be required in a subpanel in a detached building. If this is just on a post I'm not sure what your local rule would be. I always put them in because any freestanding subpanel for me usually means a cattle waterer or the like. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 18:24
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Bad Munki posted:Okay, noodled on the pond power topic for a bit, realized I was risking biting off more than I wanted, and got back to basics. Are you running a ground? If not, you'll need to install a ground rod out there. I'm not entirely clear if code requires you to run a ground or just install a rod in this case.
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Mar 4, 2023 18:31
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Yeah, I don’t mind the #2, I looked at the charts for it too, and figured that’ll just help with the voltage drop over that long of a run. I’ll have to see what the voltage at the main panel actually is, I think it might be like 124 or so out here which gives me a little extra room. And I don’t mind over-speccing a touch in general. I also figured if my sub panel is rated for 70A max, I might as well drop wire that matches. As for 50A, I partly went with that because I don’t see single pole breakers readily available that go higher? After that, it’s all two pole 240V, which I don’t need to bother with. But if the panel and wiring is all good up to 70A, upgrading the whole thing a few amps (now or later) is just a breaker swap.
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Mar 4, 2023 18:33
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devicenull posted:Are you running a ground? If not, you'll need to install a ground rod out there. I'm not entirely clear if code requires you to run a ground or just install a rod in this case. This was also something I was wondering about. The wire I’m currently planning on is 2-2-4, which I was expecting to be hot-neutral-ground, but wasn’t sure if an extra grounding rod was required. Seems like that would just make a sweet 150’ ground loop?
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Mar 4, 2023 18:35
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Bad Munki posted:This was also something I was wondering about. The wire I’m currently planning on is 2-2-4, which I was expecting to be hot-neutral-ground, but wasn’t sure if an extra grounding rod was required. Seems like that would just make a sweet 150’ ground loop? You'll need 3 wires for a 120V subpanel, ground and neutral can only be bonded in once place (shop panel or possibly upstream of it). Still need the groundrod in subpanels in unattached buildings. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 18:40
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I feel like this has gotten away from the original spec considerably. Are you looking at somehow doing single pole 120v 50a? If so, don't. Do a double pole 20 or 30a and cut your conductor size substantially. Plus isn't your lifetime expected load like a few amps tops? I don't see the breaker in your parts list - can you link it?
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Mar 4, 2023 18:42
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Maybe! I tend to do that sometimes, and I'm knowingly in that non-ideal area where I know enough to make it all go but without realizing I'm making bad choices. That's the main reason I'm trying to settle every decision on this before pulling any triggers, to keep myself in check and sane. So maybe let's wind back a little. The actual hard specs: - Main panel is at the shop - Want a few circuits elsewhere, about 150' by wire from the main panel - Circuits include: - - 15A for continuously running air pump (checked, it only draws 3.2A) - - 20A for landscape lighting, although probably 15A is fine with modern LED lighting - - a general use outlet or two for whatever, so maybe an extra 15A circuit - Sub panel will definitely be a wet, exposed location Everything after that is admittedly snowballing. Here's an actual pic of where the wire exits the building:  X is a typical thin steel wall, other side of that is protected wall cavity. Y is where we enter the ground. I figured whatever I end up doing, that red path is PVC conduit. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 19:08
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If it were mine, I'd go with 6-6-6 USE triplex and a loose 6 USE. 60a (or larger) subpanel. This would give you 240V and the option to have a few 120V circuits for an outdoor seating area or even an RV hookup. Definitely don't spend more money for a UF run that gives no future-proofing. edit: I might be wrong. After looking at the picture, it's going to be the shits to pull even in 1 1/2" conduit. It'll really be dependent on your experiance, USE isn't something you want to try and push around more than one 90. Might take an extra J-box to get this runnable. If there's anywhere else you can route this, I'd go with USE. Conduit out of the panel to an exterior LB, then conduit down below grade. Otherwise, the pain of that run is maybe not worth it. I've taken 2-2-4 through (2) 1 1/2" 90s on 10-20' runs. It takes a fish tape and a couple people and I wouldn't push it more than that. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 19:14
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 Am I crazy in thinking that I should have more of neutral connection here? It looks like I've only got a strand or two of wire coming in from the pole to this connection. I was only looking at this after a solar install and happened to notice it in one of the pictures (I had a service upgrade to 200a done years ago, but the utility never came out and did anything)
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Mar 5, 2023 04:38
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devicenull posted:
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Mar 5, 2023 12:03
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H110Hawk posted:You can also start with a 2 gang box, shared neutral, both gfci, red/white one one, black/white on the other. And a tied breaker. Scope creep is a hell of a drug.
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Mar 6, 2023 05:35
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Do light switches go bad and if so, how do I verify? The light switch, which controls the fan in my sons room, is no longer turning the light/fan on anymore. I tried new bulbs and also turning the fan speed on with the pull chains to no avail. All the other lights and outlets work in the room. I took the plate off the switch and my voltage tester it showing it’s live. The only thing I noticed is now the switch is squeaking whenever I try to flip it. Yesterday (when the light switch worked) it didn’t make a noise that I noticed. Any ideas besides just buying a new one and trying it? The only thing I was doing was sanding some spackle in his room above the switch. I doubt it, but could dust have got in there behind the faceplate and caused it to fail? I took a look and the connections are backstabbed into the switch. nwin fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 22:39
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