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Never name a number first.
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Feb 27, 2023 20:58
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leper khan posted:Head of HR wanted to know what range I would accept. She mentioned in the conversation that they had a target range. She didn't seem to want to share their target range. Received confirmation that they're going to give me an offer, so it looks like they were able to figure out how to carry forward without me telling them how low I'd be willing to accept!
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Feb 27, 2023 21:03
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SEKCobra posted:Never name a number first. And how hard/if you press them for a number is up to you. I guess I unintentionally pressed too hard on my last back-and-forth (I asked what the range was) - likely bullet dodged, but still, a factor to weigh. I wasn’t planning on being back in the pool for a long time but made the mistake of speaking that aloud so now my work situation is much more uncertain - hopefully I can continue to learn and leverage from the thread.
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Feb 27, 2023 21:15
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SEKCobra posted:Never name a number first. There are situations where it makes sense to name a number first but if you are in that kind of situation you should already be very aware of that advantage/necessity.
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Feb 27, 2023 21:55
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Also, if you are in a position where you can say "I will torpedo any job opening where they want me to name a number first" great, more power to you. But I suspect more and more people are in a position where they can't do that. In that case it helps to have a strategy to deal with companies that will push for a number. I do think there are places that are perfectly fine to work for but they may have HR practices that may gate on naming that number. It comes down to: Know you market value. Talk to people, get a sense for what to expect.
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Feb 27, 2023 22:00
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Thanks to this thread I managed to deflect a salary question today, previously I’d have just given my ‘yes’ number (£90k), but after my stalling the hiring manager quoted the range as £90-110k. So I would have potentially left 10-20k on the table. I likely won’t take this job due to a whole range of reasons but it gives me great leverage for upcoming interviews for other places.
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Feb 27, 2023 23:51
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spwrozek posted:We may pay a little low but we have really good benefits. Are your really good benefits detailed anywhere for the applicant to see? I recently got rejected after a phone screener because they Needed A Number and I anchored high. They balked, it was above the range, but we continued the call. Later in the call they mentioned it was WFH/hybrid, that wasn't in the job description. Would have been a great to know before we even talked about salary.
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Feb 28, 2023 00:49
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Salami Surgeon posted:Are your really good benefits detailed anywhere for the applicant to see?
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Feb 28, 2023 02:20
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Arquinsiel posted:You missed your opportunity to say that you'd be willing to come down on salary for WFH, and you'll come down further the more WFH there is. Next time you'll know! No, they were done with me after that. We only continued the call on my insistence (that I waste their time).
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Feb 28, 2023 03:02
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It could have been in the same sentence even 
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Feb 28, 2023 03:56
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spf3million posted:I've been transparent about the bonus timeline, no issues there. I want to wait to make a decision until I understand the merit increase and if the offer comes on Monday, that's three weeks before I'll have all of the information. Just feels like a long time to make them wait. Maybe that's not unusual. HR floated some potential salary numbers and I was aloof enough to keep him talking. I'm interested in seeing the written offer in its entirety. The base pay is a decent bump from my current base but my current bonus bridges that gap almost exactly assuming target payout. I am currently able to make more by working OT during defined periods of the year and my current employer has a pension scheme and good 401k match. Also a short commute. New company has none of those but it'll definitely come with a large
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Feb 28, 2023 04:19
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Anyone recently negotiate with Gov? I was just offered a GS11 position at the first step which would be a mild set back for me fiscally. Need to come in at a step 4 just to equal and 5 would be a very mild raise. Not exactly sure the proper way to deal with this I’ve always been in the private sector.
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Mar 2, 2023 02:54
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Seems like you just gotta tell 'em what step you want to come in at since you know what your BATNA is and it's "more money" as it stands.
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Mar 2, 2023 03:26
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In many positions they have some flexibility within a step band even at the start - I was offered a fed job (I didn't end up taking) that would have started at 13-5 or 13-6, I forget. (I'm a lawyer, any job that requires a law degree is high on the GS scale, I'm not talking about an offer for deputy assistant secretary or whatever).
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Mar 2, 2023 07:25
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Has anyone else had to deal with provisional offers that are subject to internal approval? My thoughts, having just been through a process that went that way (we ended on a good number): * it’s an invitation to negotiate against yourself. The company ain’t gonna raise that number unless you ask and keep asking. * it slows the process by a week or two. You’ll want to spend the time working on other offers / projects to keep your mind off it and avoid the temptation to chase. * it’s more likely to be driven by internal HR bullshit than an actual attempt at bait and switch, even if it feels like that. * you will probably have to say “no” at least once to get the original offer. This feels like a bit of a waste of time but whatever.
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Mar 2, 2023 16:41
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The second point is the major one. The purpose is to keep you in play while they take their time.
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Mar 2, 2023 16:43
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And getting candidates to negotiate against themselves by saying "Listen I'm on your side but let's come up with something my boss will like to see" is a time-honored negotiation technique.
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Mar 2, 2023 17:24
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Lockback posted:"Thank you for the opportunity! I am considering everything right now, but I would immediately take this offer if you were willing to increase the salary by $3k for Health care and $3k for 401k (total of $6k increase to xyz) until such time these are available, then we can reduce the salary to the offer of (xyz-6k). Please let me know if this is acceptable." My brother asked for the salary increases for health reimbursement and 401k until the plans were in place and they accepted those terms, so he is happy with how things turned out. Thanks again for the help!
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Mar 2, 2023 21:31
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Thank you to everyone in this thread. I used all the advice here during negotiation for a job to get brought in right above the stated salary band for a position. I had an advantage in that it was a California position so they told me the pay band up front, but I made sure to never say a number and just let them know that I would consider a competitive offer from them to be towards the top of their stated range. Lots of "well I'll have to understand the whole benefits package and the position better before I answer that" and in the first HR phone screen I just flat out told the person I thought it was too early for me to discuss what salary range I was looking for. Is it possible I could have gotten more? Maybe, but I was very happy with the overall package by the time they sent me the offer letter. I also was in a position where I had another offer in hand, so I definitely felt more comfortable negotiating that I might have otherwise.
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Mar 3, 2023 16:10
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I don’t have much to offer to this thread but I really enjoy seeing people’s success stories.
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Mar 3, 2023 23:37
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So I got a job offer yesterday for a job I’m unsure about. I’m currently employed and fairly confident that my position is safe, well …as confident as you can be in capitalist America I suppose. But this company is looking for someone and offering hybrid workplace as well as 2X the PTO I currently have, so I’ve been courting them recently. Turns out they only offered me like 2% above my current salary as they are a startup and have low initial capital. They have also offered stock options six months in, but obviously as a startup this is a risk both in terms of continued employment and also the compensation being worthless stocks. Question is: how do I monetize this opportunity the best? Do I counter the offer with the minimum 10-15% more than my current salary and accept if they agree? Do I take this offer to my current job and try to squeeze more compensation (salary + PTO) from my present boss? A combination of both?
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Mar 4, 2023 17:00
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Wonderllama posted:they are a startup and have low initial capital.  No really, even though you're Wonderllama I'll still always do my damnedest to help an SAS hockey bro.  I don't recommend trying to get a counteroffer from your current employer, for reasons I won't elaborate for the 483rd time but they're all over the post history of any regular in this thread. If you take an offer from a startup you should do so in the awareness that most startups run out of money and fold (after trying to get you to work for free for a while, "we're just having a minor cash flow issue, don't worry it'll turn around and we'll give you a bonus...") within two years. And unless you're a founder you will have little to no warning when this is about to happen (definitely zero warning if you've never worked at startups before and don't know what the warning flags are.) The value of any and all stock options offered is $0. In your position I would not accept a position at a startup unless it were an increase of at least 40% in salary. Probably more. That's salary, mind, not stock options. I would name a very high number and let them walk away. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Mar 4, 2023 |
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Mar 4, 2023 17:25
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Eric is absolutely right
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Mar 4, 2023 17:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Eric is absolutely right Thanks for confirming, this is not a concept he is accustomed to from my hockey shitposting
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Mar 4, 2023 17:28
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Wonderllama posted:So I got a job offer yesterday for a job I’m unsure about. I’m currently employed and fairly confident that my position is safe, well …as confident as you can be in capitalist America I suppose. But this company is looking for someone and offering hybrid workplace as well as 2X the PTO I currently have, so I’ve been courting them recently. Turns out they only offered me like 2% above my current salary as they are a startup and have low initial capital. They have also offered stock options six months in, but obviously as a startup this is a risk both in terms of continued employment and also the compensation being worthless stocks. Ask for 40% more base.
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Mar 4, 2023 17:45
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Eric the Mauve posted:
Yeah, I shitpost in hockey a lot but at least Im also really bad at careers too. Appreciate it, I’ll probably just counter with something wild that they will never be able to afford and either keep on searching on be pleasantly surprised.
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Mar 4, 2023 18:29
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Wonderllama posted:Yeah, I shitpost in hockey a lot but at least Im also really bad at careers too. This is the correct course of action for more than half the help requests in this thread
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Mar 4, 2023 18:52
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I'm not as against getting a counter offer from your current place as Eric is but this is probably not the kind of offer you want to do that with. If your not willing to take the offer, and your current place doesn't counter, then you're signalling to your current place that you are overpaid. There is tremendous risk with this new place and I don't see the reward unless you majorly value the PTO, and even then a cash strapped startup probably will offer lots of PTO that you'll never be able to use. I'd want a significant pay increase and probably actual equity in this case, no just options. And that doesn't lessen the risk, but at least gives you a chance at a real reward.
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Mar 4, 2023 19:48
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I hosed up by staying with a VC funded deadend start up. I was so dumb. Never work for an early stage start up without a 50% risk modifier applied to your income. Better yet, just don't work for an early stage start up.
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Mar 4, 2023 22:59
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Methanar posted:I hosed up by staying with a VC funded deadend start up. Only way I'll work early stage at this point is if I have 50+% equity.
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Mar 5, 2023 01:27
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I know a lot of people who think that way but the only fun/good jobs I've ever had have been at startups. They suck if you have bad work life boundaries or are unable to save a few months of expenses to de-risk the possibility of unemployment but I'd endure a hundred startup liquidations before I'd go back to work at 50k employee enterprise corp, unless my job was specifically to fire useless boomers 8 hours a day.
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Mar 5, 2023 01:55
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From what I’ve seen of a good buddy who churns start up jobs, I don’t have the personality for that life. Let me ooze along in the megacorp world. Maybe it’s more boring, but I’ll pass on participating in the founder’s 9pm board game power rankings that he’s totally not using to gauge who is on slack at that time.
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Mar 5, 2023 06:06
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Working startups can be fine. Just make sure your balancing the risk with reward. A startup with anemic funding and offering PTO as the biggest perk strikes me as a risk, especially as work life balance is usually not a startups strength.
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Mar 5, 2023 15:14
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I know it’s been posted a few times but I hate that online application forms ask for desired salary as a mandatory numerical field. I had a HR screen today and despite some pushing I avoiding giving my current and desired salary, but the form is a pain. It doesn’t seem to let me put ‘0’ or ‘000’ in, but it accepted ‘999’. Feels a bit weird putting that in.
Lady Gaza fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 23:09
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Lady Gaza posted:I know it’s been posted a few times but I hate that online application forms ask for desired salary as a mandatory numerical field. I had a HR screen today and despite some pushing I avoiding giving my current and desired salary, but the form is a pain. It doesn’t seem to let me put ‘0’ or ‘000’ in, but it accepted ‘999’. Feels a bit weird putting that in. They usually accept '1'
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Mar 6, 2023 23:26
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or 999999
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Mar 6, 2023 23:27
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‘1’ worked! Feel like 999,999 would be viewed as taking the piss. How have HR reacted for anyone else who put in 0, 1, or similar?
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Mar 6, 2023 23:35
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I like to try the old apostrophe OR 1=1; -- to see if it works. I figure if it gets through then someone might get a giggle out of it.
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Mar 6, 2023 23:36
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Lady Gaza posted:‘1’ worked! Feel like 999,999 would be viewed as taking the piss. How have HR reacted for anyone else who put in 0, 1, or similar? It's not uncommon.
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Mar 6, 2023 23:40
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Arquinsiel posted:I like to try the old apostrophe OR 1=1; -- to see if it works. I figure if it gets through then someone might get a giggle out of it.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:31
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