(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
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Does doing that have anything to do with the war in Ukraine?
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 03:16 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 12:15 |
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Somewhat? It’s pretty interesting reading about Ukrainian attempts to break away from the empire during the chaos of the revolution, it gives a bit of context to modern events and viewpoints.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 03:18 |
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Mr Teatime posted:Currently starting Antony Beevors Russia: Revolution and Civil War, 1917—1921 which is definitely an interesting read given the current situation. Anybody want to explain to me how he’s a decadent biased Anglo and everything in the book is wrong? Not conclusive of anything in particular, but Ukraine did ban one of Antony Beevor's books in 2018 (albeit during the presidency of Petro Poroshenko and not the current administration). quote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor quote:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/19/stalingrad-author-anthony-beevor-speaks-out-over-ukraine-book-ban quote:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/feb/03/antony-beevor-stalingrad-ukraine-ban-censorship
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 03:20 |
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If was being flippant it’s only because I’d seen a lot of pushback against some of Beevors stuff from some circles, particularly after his descriptions of the conduct of soviet soldiers in Germany in ‘Berlin’. I like his stuff but I’m still open to hearing criticism of him.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 03:31 |
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I'm not shitposting clearly Also this is good article but cw it's heavy, some bits of interviews with combatants https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/13/how-russian-journalists-in-exile-are-covering-the-war-in-ukraine after accidentally airing an interview where a Russian soldier admits to war crimes posted:When the newscast cut back to Korostelev, an editor in the studio, whom Korostelev could hear in his earpiece, told him that the next segment was delayed. He had to fill more than a minute of airtime. Karma Comedian fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Mar 7, 2023 |
# ? Mar 7, 2023 03:34 |
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Anthony Beevor is profoundly moronic. He has real old man historian energy and doesnt actually understand people. My favourite example is his comparison of occupied paris and paris during liberation. He found some journals of olds stating how quiet the city was when the germans rolled in (because everyone was walking on eggshells) and how respectful zee germans were and compared it to liberation when the city exploded into a party because thats what happens when a million 20 year old american kids roll into town with money to spend and girls yo imprsss. Hes a dumb mothefucker.
Burns fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Mar 7, 2023 |
# ? Mar 7, 2023 03:35 |
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fizzy posted:Round-Up of News of the Day
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 04:17 |
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https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1632836459370618881 Voenkors collectively are panicking about some potential offensive aimed at occupied Zaporizhzhia oblast.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 04:21 |
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zone posted:Voenkors collectively are panicking about some potential offensive aimed at occupied Zaporizhzhia oblast. Someone should reply to their concerns to put them at ease.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 04:25 |
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I'm gonna laugh my rear end off forever if they do the same trick again and sucker the Russians into moving all their poo poo from Bakhmut to Zaporizhzhia and Ukraine's counteroffensive ends up taking Severodonetsk and Lysychansk instead lmao
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 04:30 |
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HonorableTB posted:I'm gonna laugh my rear end off forever if they do the same trick again and sucker the Russians into moving all their poo poo from Bakhmut to Zaporizhzhia and Ukraine's counteroffensive ends up taking Severodonetsk and Lysychansk instead lmao Losing territory in Luhansk or Donetsk oblast would probably be a resounding slap in the face, and set back severely even the limited goals Russia set for itself at the beginning of the year, and that being the complete occupation of both these oblasts.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 04:42 |
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zone posted:Peace can happen any time Russia and their colonial transplants in Crimea pack their bags and leave for Russia again, and pay the bill for their dumb war in full. Gosh I feel awful for this lady, but like... what was she supposed to do, she looks like an average mom. If anyone feels good that she's suffering, well, I don't know what to tell you. All this bullshit comes from the people in power (Putin and his cronies and supporters, who I assume are all crabs???), the rest of us plebes are just lambs to the slaughter Putin is a crab reference: https://uproxx.com/viral/putin-crab-bald-dwarf-russian-online-censors/
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 05:39 |
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:Gosh I feel awful for this lady, but like... what was she supposed to do, she looks like an average mom. If anyone feels good that she's suffering, well, I don't know what to tell you. If I remember right she was upset that her vacation got cut short.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 05:43 |
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:Gosh I feel awful for this lady, but like... what was she supposed to do, she looks like an average mom. If anyone feels good that she's suffering, well, I don't know what to tell you. She was crying about having to leave Crimea, talking about how cool it was living there and how it was like a second home to her and that she didn't want to leave there at all for these reasons. That's why she essentially got memed on by Ukrainian citizens who could have cared less for that line of thought, because in their eyes she really had no business being there so long in the first place. For context this happened around the time the Saki airbase got torched and several planes and airbase facilities destroyed or damaged, and sent most of the tourists as well as the people who'd either bought or otherwise obtained property in Crimea fleeing across the Kerch bridge. Look, I understand your point, and agree with it, I really do, my gripe isn't with the common Russian citizen and never has been, but ultimately one way or the other they're going to have to go back home in the event Ukraine recaptures Crimea.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 05:50 |
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Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:Gosh I feel awful for this lady, but like... what was she supposed to do, she looks like an average mom. If anyone feels good that she's suffering, well, I don't know what to tell you. shes a transplanted russian colonist, op. Here's more info: https://kyivindependent.com/national/security-council-chief-russia-moved-600000-people-to-crimea-since-occupation Kyiv Independent posted:Security Council chief: Russia moved 600,000 people to Crimea since occupation Keep in mind the above article is from 12/27/21, so pre-full scale invasion but definitely when it was obvious that Russia was going to invade. Edit: Here's a great academic paper examining Russian colonization of Crimea during the 90s: https://ir.lib.uwo.ca/etd/7077/ University of Ontario posted:Where does the myth that ‘Crimea has always been Russia’ come from? How did the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union ‘make’ Crimea Russian? This dissertation shows how the they applied settler colonial practices to Crimea, displacing the indigenous population and repopulating the peninsula with loyal settlers and how Crimean settler colonial structures survived the fall of the Soviet Union. It argues that this process defines post-Soviet history of the peninsula. Edit 2: sorry sorry this was too much of an effortpost for gbs so have a meme all my occupied territories, gone HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Mar 7, 2023 |
# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:20 |
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Even in 2014, before Maidan roughly 70 percent of Crimea was ethnically Russian, and the vast majority of them sided with Russia over Ukraine repeatedly as in the 1991 referendum, the 1992 election, the 1994 Declaration of Independence, the Orange revolution, Maidan and 2014- on. What group of them are designated as colonists? All of them? Those who arrived after annexation in 2014? those who were born after Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1954? By what practical or ethical mechanism could you do any of that against the popular will of the majority of Crimea?
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:39 |
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I've about as much sympathy for Russian colonizers in Ukraine as I do for Israeli colonizers in the West Bank, i.e. not much. People can make all the excuses about either that they want, but these occupiers are actively complicit in the oppression and victimisation of those they've asserted domination over.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:41 |
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Cugel the Clever posted:I've about as much sympathy for Russian colonizers in Ukraine as I do for Israeli colonizers in the West Bank, i.e. not much. People can make all the excuses about either that they want, but these occupiers are actively complicit in the oppression and victimisation of those they've asserted domination over. I don’t think Israel is a good parallel to Crimea. The goal of Crimean ‘decolonization’ does not seek to return it to previous Tatar inhabitants from Russia but instead to another state historically involved in their expulsion and suppression, Ukraine.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:47 |
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Turtle Watch posted:I don’t think Israel is a good parallel to Crimea. The goal of Crimean ‘decolonization’ does not seek to return it to previous Tatar inhabitants from Russia but instead to another state historically involved in their expulsion and suppression, Ukraine. Crimean Tatars overwhelmingly prefer Ukrainian management if you want to appeal to popular will here. The Russians are textbook settler colonialists in regards to any of the recent land grabs (Abkhazia, Crimea, Mariupol) with businesses and land being sold for cheap to Russian nationals
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:49 |
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Turtle Watch posted:I don’t think Israel is a good parallel to Crimea. The goal of Crimean ‘decolonization’ does not seek to return it to previous Tatar inhabitants from Russia but instead to another state historically involved in their expulsion and suppression, Ukraine. You don't care about the Tatars or anything, you are just trying to score sick burns on Ukraine and just making yourself look like a stupid imperialist.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:51 |
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Turtle Watch posted:Even in 2014, before Maidan roughly 70 percent of Crimea was ethnically Russian, and the vast majority of them sided with Russia over Ukraine repeatedly as in the 1991 referendum It's also unclear what you're referring to in the other votes. People voting for a party that is more Russia-affiliated doesn't give Russia authorization to annex and colonize wholesale. Sincere question: do you think Germany deserved the Sudetenland?
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:52 |
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Ah yes the headquarters city and garrison of the Black Sea Fleet, one of Russia's most important strategic interests in the entire world, voted to go Independent by 4.1% , and surely this has nothing at all to do with the abovementioned Black Sea Fleet base, which has been a strategic weakness of Russia's ever since they started leasing the base's land from Ukraine, or the 1.5 centuries of colonization since the Crimean War ended in 1856 I recommend interested parties to read this Center for Strategic & International Studies post about the strategic importance of Crimea to the Russian Federation: https://www.csis.org/blogs/post-soviet-post/crimeas-strategic-value-russia CSIS posted:Russia’s takeover of Crimea has dramatically escalated the recent East-West struggle over Ukraine, converting an economic and diplomatic dispute into a major geopolitical crisis. Despite increasing Western condemnation and impending sanctions, Russia thus far shows no signs of yielding its control over Crimea. In fact, by agreeing to allow a referendum to be held on whether Crimea is to rejoin Russia, and then announcing Crimea’s annexation, Putin has allowed the crisis to escalate even further, although he has not yet completely foreclosed the possibility of eventual compromise. But Putin’s decision to occupy Crimea raises several questions, which are worthy of exploration. Why for example did Putin choose to act in Crimea? What does he hope to achieve? Most importantly, what is Crimea’s strategic value for Russia? This heavily informs what Russia will and won't do with regards to Crimea HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Mar 7, 2023 |
# ? Mar 7, 2023 06:56 |
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Turtle Watch posted:Even in 2014, before Maidan roughly 70 percent of Crimea was ethnically Russian, and the vast majority of them sided with Russia over Ukraine repeatedly as in the 1991 referendum, the 1992 election, the 1994 Declaration of Independence, the Orange revolution, Maidan and 2014- on. Technically both Ukrainians and Russians are colonizers. In all the elections cited that did not have Russian boots on the ground Crimea ultimately compromised with Ukrainian rule, despite its obvious cultural and political yearnings towards Russia. Presumably, this is a reflection of the pragmatic reality that Crimea is dependent on Ukraine as a matter of geography. Personally I'm all for Crimean self-determination, but they can't self-determine access to Ukraine's water.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 07:16 |
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zone posted:Peace can happen any time Russia and their colonial transplants in Crimea pack their bags and leave for Russia again, and pay the bill for their dumb war in full. The problem with this is as an American I'm not any different from this woman lmao
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 07:24 |
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slurm posted:The problem with this is as an American I'm not any different from this woman lmao I guess that depends on how self-aware she is
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 07:27 |
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Turtle Watch posted:Even in 2014, before Maidan roughly 70 percent of Crimea was ethnically Russian, and the vast majority of them sided with Russia over Ukraine repeatedly as in the 1991 referendum, the 1992 election, the 1994 Declaration of Independence, the Orange revolution, Maidan and 2014- on. I think in general you don't really get to pick and choose in those cases and it is what it is. I mean I (and many others where I'm from originally) probably have more in common with a country other than the US politically, ideologically, ethnically, etc. but that doesn't mean I would be cool with that country coming over and claiming my hometown as their own and citing those things as reasons. It's a bit of a double edged sword in that sense. You're either for a sort of government mandated colonialist/manifest destiny-ish type of deal or you just kind of live with it until you either move or things change.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 07:41 |
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Kchama posted:You don't care about the Tatars or anything, you are just trying to score sick burns on Ukraine and just making yourself look like a stupid imperialist. This is not true, and I don’t think you should attack people for caring about the civilian population of Crimea. I am not trying to troll you, I am trying to argue that there is a serious case for recognizing that a military solution in Crimea is not as simple as I fear some think it is. Cugel the Clever posted:Independence won a majority of the vote in Crimea and Sebastopol, so I'm not sure what you're referring to? Unless you're weird and think people choosing not to vote should count more than the people who do vote. Try showing up next time. I refer to the 1991 Crimean Sovereignty Referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum “A referendum on sovereignty was held in the Crimean Oblast of the Ukrainian SSR on 20 January 1991,[1] two months before the 1991 All-Union referendum. Voters were asked whether they wanted to re-establish the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, which had been abolished in 1945. The proposal was approved by 94% of voters.” “The referendum did not just call for the restoration for the ASSR, but further called for Crimea to be a participant in the New Union Treaty – an ultimately futile attempt by Mikhail Gorbachev to reconstitute the USSR. This would have meant that Crimea would have been a sovereign subject of the renewed USSR[7] and separate from the Ukrainian SSR.” Obviously that fell apart after the dissolution, the vote for Ukrainian independence would take place later and pass in Crimea in much narrower margins. Crucially that vote provided Crimea autonomous rights that were later abrogated when Ukrainian military deposed Crimeas elected government in 1995. The point of bringing any of this up is that I am not saying any of this makes the Russian annexation ok. I am saying that Ukrainian that victory in this war that leads to an occupation of Crimea will be fraught with difficulties that should be addressed. I don’t think Russians usefully analogize to Israelis in the West Bank, but even if they did I think the question of what should be done to any of them is not to be dismissed. I agree that Putin annexation of Crimea is not meaningfully motivated by any concern for Crimean general well-being, and I believe you when you say ethnic Tatars would prefer Ukrainian government. Thanks for those who are responding to me seriously, I don’t believe any of you would really want such a thing as ethnic cleansing. It just seems to me “winning” in Crimea seems a lot further away than even the end of this war. The only reason I bring any of this up was that it seems that potentially ethnically cleansing Crimea seems like a bad idea, and I’m not sure what the alternative plan looks like, and a lot of the rhetoric around ‘Russian colonizers go home’ seems to be heading in a worrisome direction. If this seems like “concern trolling” to you I don’t know what to tell you, I have no such worries about the well-being of people in most of the other territories Ukraine has reclaimed but I feel that the Crimean situation is more complicated.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 07:42 |
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I have little sympathy for recent transplant chud rear end nationalists beating the “crimea is Russian clay” drum, however colonialism leaves a hosed up hard to unpick legacy and despite my overall sympathies laying with Ukraine I don’t know if Crimea is going to be an easily solved issue barring a total Russian military collapse.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 07:46 |
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Turtle Watch it would help if you understood the reason why there are so many Russians there in the first place. The referendums you keep citing are bullshit precisely because they were stacked in the first place becauseDemographics of Crimea posted:
Let's take a look at those demo stats: Do you see something that could possibly have affected the demographics of the people who would be voting in the referendums you continue citing, say between 1897 and 1959 when Ukrainian Tatars went from a combined 47.3% of the pop to Russians becoming 71.4% of the population in two generations, and still remains the majority ethnicity due to annexation at 67.9% as of 2014. Almost as if they got rid of everyone who would be opposed to Ukrainian association As if they..."Russified" it... HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Mar 7, 2023 |
# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:04 |
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"Won't someone please think how awful that poor imperial colonist must feel." Yeah, and the Ukrainians whose homes, lives and most earthly possessions those Russians just took for themselves as prizes as they drove them away to live their lives as rootless refugees were surely overflowing with joy. And if you wish to reply me with "STFU you have no idea what you are talking about", please go read about what happened to the Karelians, who lived in the parts of Finland that Soviet Union took after WW2. I have little to no sympathy for those Russian colonists who moved in after 2014, they only lost their money on their bad bet of being the first vultures to pick on what was left at the area after the ruling elite took theirs.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:05 |
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If you really want to get wild with Crimea, let's consider this: According to the 2001 census, 77% of Crimean inhabitants named Russian as their native language, 11.4% – Crimean Tatar, and 10.1% – Ukrainian. Of the Ukrainians in Crimea, 40% gave Ukrainian as their native language, with 60% identifying as ethnic Ukrainians while giving Russian as their primary language. The number of Crimean residents who consider Ukraine their motherland increased sharply from 32% to 71.3% from 2008 through 2011 How to square that with the referendum in Crimea? Simple: It was made up to begin with, as all Russian elections are
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:10 |
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I still think Russia should just go back to Russia and be nice. Dumbest war ever.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:14 |
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Der Kyhe posted:"Won't someone please think how awful that poor imperial colonist must feel." I just don't know what leg I have to stand on here as an American lmao
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:16 |
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slurm posted:I just don't know what leg I have to stand on here as an American lmao I'm a Native American (muscogee creek tribe ayyy) and while the awareness is appreciated its not like you had anything to do with colonizing this land on a decision that was taken 10 generations before you, unlike the russians who colonized such land *checks notes* 9 years ago (colonization meaning annexation, drastically simplified of course, but the ramp up in Russification during the late and post-Soviet eras mean that a large part of this happened within living memory for the vast majority of Russians AND Ukrainians)
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:18 |
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slurm posted:I just don't know what leg I have to stand on here as an American lmao
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:20 |
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When you think about it, isn't anti-imperialism a form of imperialism aimed against imperialists?
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:27 |
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slurm posted:I just don't know what leg I have to stand on here as an American lmao Time matters. We like to talk as though it doesn't but it does. If you were an European colonist in the 1700-1800s building "your home" on "your property" which was recently stolen native lands, then yes, it would be a fair moral comparison. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to note that imperialism and colonization are bad.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:27 |
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Turtle Watch posted:This is not true, and I don’t think you should attack people for caring about the civilian population of Crimea. I am not trying to troll you, I am trying to argue that there is a serious case for recognizing that a military solution in Crimea is not as simple as I fear some think it is. The Tatars are uh, not fans of Russia, and in fact a lot of the people who were very Russian-yearning before Russia invaded have very publically changed their minds because the Russians curb-stomped them as hard as they could for funsies. That is why I know you don't give a poo poo about Tatars. Also, the person in that video is a tourist who had to go because the war her country started is making the place dangerous. Because Russia wouldn't have had such troubles in Crimea if they hadn't decided to murder the rest of the Ukrainians in Ukraine.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:32 |
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A key factor in the Crimea discussion over whether the Russians in Crimea have a right to join Russia by the virtue of forming a regional demographic plurality is that under Russian rule, there is no such a thing as protection of civil rights for the minorities living there, including not only ethnic Ukrainians, but also the Tartars, who have already seen their community persecuted under Russian authority, and others. While under Ukraine, there was no violation of the rights of Russians; the majority has no right to impose their will on the minority if it would lead to harm to the latter, arguing otherwise would be a textbook example of the tyranny of the majority, unfortunately appealing to naked chauvinistic nationalism and ethnic Russian supremacy is a core part of Russian regime playbook, and exactly what the 2014 occupation was about.
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# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:35 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 12:15 |
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HonorableTB posted:Turtle Watch it would help if you understood the reason why there are so many Russians there in the first place. The referendums you keep citing are bullshit precisely because they were stacked in the first place because Der Kyhe posted:"Won't someone please think how awful that poor imperial colonist must feel." I agree that the ethnic Russians there are descendants of colonial projects and an ongoing campaign of Russification and that the ones that moved there after 2014 have even less of a claim there than others. But here is where I start to disagree: The people they took Crimea from were Tatars, not Ukrainians,(e:here perhaps I am misinterpreting your use of Ukrainians as ‘ethnic Ukrainians’ and you may have meant ‘people who now would identify as Ukrainian nationals) that census shows a constant trend downward of Tatars and a constant increase of Ukrainian and Russians up until 1959 date. To then argue that we have to evict these descendants of people who took Tatar land and replace them with Ukrainians doesn’t make sense to me. I have heard Ukrainians saying they regret the treatment the Tatars have had from Ukrainians. I do not doubt you when you say Crimean Tatars would prefer being a part of Ukraine to Russia. Many Crimean Tatars support Ukraine and proudly identify as Ukrainian citizens. I know some ethnic Russians also support Ukraine, although I don’t know amounts. I would prefer if all these groups could live in peace in Crimea after this war, and I have to imagine that eliminationist rhetoric only harms those chances. Am I being simple? Am I worrying about a forced exodus won’t happen? Maybe I am. Maybe Crimean reintegration with Ukraine would be more straightforward than I am imagining, and any rhetoric is just that. But the one thing I don’t accept is that “the colonists have it coming to them who cares”.(I don’t believe anyone here is seriously saying this, but I feel maybe some curiosity wouldn’t go amiss)I care! What is the “it” coming to them? It sounds very ominous and even if they do “deserve” “it” shouldn’t we be curious what exactly the “it” we are agreeing to is? Turtle Watch fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Mar 7, 2023 |
# ? Mar 7, 2023 08:43 |