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Weka posted:South Korea was totally a colony of the USA. Is it no longer? E: I guess a protectorate is a colony
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Mar 7, 2023 03:04
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i say swears online posted:I was interpreting colonial war as in a colonial power asserting or reasserting control over a colony Okay then the Vietnam War
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Mar 7, 2023 03:22
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Weka posted:South Korea was totally a colony of the USA. Finno-Korean Hyperwar denialist spotted
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Mar 7, 2023 03:26
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Holy poo poo Azatoth got demodded. You're free.
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Mar 7, 2023 03:38
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MonsieurChoc posted:Holy poo poo Azatoth got demodded. as a bird baby
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Mar 7, 2023 03:39
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Does the Jakarta Method count as a colonial war?
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Mar 7, 2023 03:39
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HootTheOwl posted:Is it no longer? Maybe it's a neocolony now. The poster seemed to be excluding those. Azathoth posted:Finno-Korean Hyperwar denialist spotted Obviously South Korea's colonial status is a fairly recent affair. MonsieurChoc posted:Holy poo poo Azatoth got demodded. 
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Mar 7, 2023 04:11
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Having a colony sort of implies you're settling at least a portion of your own people there, usually to exploit the land/people/both. South Korea is definitely a client state of the US, as was South Vietnam.
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Mar 7, 2023 04:33
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Endman posted:Having a colony sort of implies you're settling at least a portion of your own people there, usually to exploit the land/people/both. I'd argue the main innovation of the US with regard to capitalism is how to economically colonize without needing to have the actual boots on the ground administration to extract a shitload of value and send it back to the imperial core.
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Mar 7, 2023 04:49
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We have 15 military bases in South Korea. lol
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Mar 7, 2023 04:51
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AnimeIsTrash posted:We have 15 military bases in South Korea. lol Sorry, by administration I meant actually controlling the levers of government rather than using locals amenable to the international system. Boots on the ground, in this context, was a poor choice of words given our continued military presence.
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Mar 7, 2023 04:54
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Azathoth posted:Sorry, by administration I meant actually controlling the levers of government rather than using locals amenable to the international system. Boots on the ground, in this context, was a poor choice of words given our continued military presence. technically they do control the levers of government in the sense that united nations command could declare martial law any time they felt like it but yeah thats obviously not preferable to having local patsies run sham elections that only seem legitimate because the margins are close when the outcomes dont actually matter
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Mar 7, 2023 07:23
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https://twitter.com/RohozinskiJ/status/1632778770317705218
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Mar 7, 2023 07:23
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drat he must've been like shooting people full-time all day long
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Mar 7, 2023 07:41
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i say swears online posted:I was interpreting colonial war as in a colonial power asserting or reasserting control over a colony Yes, that's what I meant. Usually colonies gaining their independency from colonial rule is presented as "and then western powers realised that it was time to give up colonialism and that was the end of that", which is hardly the case, no?
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Mar 7, 2023 08:35
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Azathoth posted:Sorry, by administration I meant actually controlling the levers of government rather than using locals amenable to the international system. Boots on the ground, in this context, was a poor choice of words given our continued military presence. Loafers on the ground.
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Mar 7, 2023 08:37
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Azathoth posted:I'd argue the main innovation of the US with regard to capitalism is how to economically colonize without needing to have the actual boots on the ground administration to extract a shitload of value and send it back to the imperial core. You make a good point, but on that note did the US extract any wealth from Vietnam? I’d argue it was a significant drain on the core, attempting to hold it.
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Mar 7, 2023 09:30
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Endman posted:You make a good point, but on that note did the US extract any wealth from Vietnam? I’d argue it was a significant drain on the core, attempting to hold it. The fall of Saigon meant that the US lost most of its access to the Golden Triangle, and it had such an impact on the drug trade that there was an entire re-orientation of the security apparatus to secure new drug supply from Central and South America (not that the US hadn't already been involved in that region prior to the 1970s)
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Mar 7, 2023 09:33
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Endman posted:You make a good point, but on that note did the US extract any wealth from Vietnam? I’d argue it was a significant drain on the core, attempting to hold it. yea, but the money spent on south vietnam came from the public purse whereas the profits went to us arms manufacturers and other grifts so it achieved its purpose of extracting wealth from the working class and hand it to capital in multiple countries at once, even
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Mar 7, 2023 09:33
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Slavvy posted:drat he must've been like shooting people full-time all day long Yeah, at the Katyn massacre he shot 250 people a night for four straight weeks. Blokhin knew that some troops would become too shell-shocked to fight if they had to execute defenseless prisoners, so he personally shot about 7,000 Polish military officers, police officers, and industrialists. They had an assembly line for executions, with loud machinery so that the prisoners wouldn't realize they were about to be shot.
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Mar 7, 2023 10:07
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Slavvy posted:drat he must've been like shooting people full-time all day long 1.5 per day for 27 years straight.
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Mar 7, 2023 10:11
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Chamale posted:Yeah, at the Katyn massacre he shot 250 people a night for four straight weeks. Blokhin knew that some troops would become too shell-shocked to fight if they had to execute defenseless prisoners, so he personally shot about 7,000 Polish military officers, police officers, and industrialists. They had an assembly line for executions, with loud machinery so that the prisoners wouldn't realize they were about to be shot. What's the source of this rather outlandish claim? If he shot people all night it's a person every 2 minutes.
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Mar 7, 2023 11:03
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Weka posted:What's the source of this rather outlandish claim? If he shot people all night it's a person every 2 minutes. Ultimately the source is the Soviet archives released by Gorbachev - but I haven't read them, I've just read about Blokhin on Wikipedia. The prison at Kalinin definitely executed 7,000 people in a one-month span in 1941, and the archives say almost all of them were shot by Blokhin with a .25 ACP pistol.
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Mar 7, 2023 11:18
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Katyn officer involved shooting
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Mar 7, 2023 11:22
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Fish of hemp posted:Yes, that's what I meant. Usually colonies gaining their independency from colonial rule is presented as "and then western powers realised that it was time to give up colonialism and that was the end of that", which is hardly the case, no? anybody who presents it like that is obfuscating a lot of violence, yes. Just off the top of my head, France fought to keep Indochina for nine years, Algeria for eight years, the British fought to keep Malaysia for 12 years, the Dutch fought to keep Indonesia for 4 years, the British set up concentration camps for an entire ethnicity in Kenya, the Americans nearly ended the world trying to reassert their economic colonialism in Cuba, etc., etc., etc.
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Mar 7, 2023 12:49
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Chamale posted:Ultimately the source is the Soviet archives released by Gorbachev - but I haven't read them, I've just read about Blokhin on Wikipedia. The prison at Kalinin definitely executed 7,000 people in a one-month span in 1941, and the archives say almost all of them were shot by Blokhin with a .25 ACP pistol. The documents released by Gorbachev indicate 4000 prisoners were executed. You might be thinking of the documents released by Yeltsin, which some people say are faked. idk.
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Mar 7, 2023 13:12
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Weka posted:What's the source of this rather outlandish claim? If he shot people all night it's a person every 2 minutes. Must have been hell on his wrist.
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Mar 7, 2023 13:52
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Endman posted:You make a good point, but on that note did the US extract any wealth from Vietnam? I’d argue it was a significant drain on the core, attempting to hold it. No, they never did turn the corner on Vietnam and make it profitable, though it wasn't for lack of trying. The MIC made off like bandits, which one could argue demonstrated yet another way to extract resources, just not from external colonization. Some Guy TT posted:technically they do control the levers of government in the sense that united nations command could declare martial law any time they felt like it but yeah thats obviously not preferable to having local patsies run sham elections that only seem legitimate because the margins are close when the outcomes dont actually matter Yeah, that's the crux of my point. They have theoretical sovereignty and self determination, and if you ask the people there if they do, they would absolutely say yes. However, the moment they do anything that is against the interests of the ownership class, the machinery of capitalism begins to work against them. Whether that is the UN or the IMF or the EU or individual countries protecting the interests of their local ownership class, it doesn't really matter who.
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Mar 7, 2023 15:14
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Azathoth posted:No, they never did turn the corner on Vietnam and make it profitable, though it wasn't for lack of trying. The MIC made off like bandits, which one could argue demonstrated yet another way to extract resources, just not from external colonization. The, "You're free to do whatever you want so long as it is what we want," form of colonization.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:20
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Dameius posted:The, "You're free to do whatever you want so long as it is what we want," form of colonization. An ancient tradition, to be sure.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:28
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Can any Korea watchers tell my why Korea is under the Patriarch of Constantinople and not Moscow? Is this Tsarist beef?
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Mar 7, 2023 17:39
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War and Pieces posted:Can any Korea watchers tell my why Korea is under the Patriarch of Constantinople and not Moscow? Is this Tsarist beef? The Korean Orthodox Church was initially under Moscow's umbrella but was cut loose in 1921 and then affiliated with Constantinople in 1955, so I think it's probably a Cold War thing.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:45
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Azathoth posted:No, they never did turn the corner on Vietnam and make it profitable, though it wasn't for lack of trying. The MIC made off like bandits, which one could argue demonstrated yet another way to extract resources, just not from external colonization. Really? They borrowed ~2/3 of a billion dollars from the IMF.
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Mar 8, 2023 02:16
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Weka posted:Really? They borrowed ~2/3 of a billion dollars from the IMF. If you're referring to their more recent borrowing from the 80s on, yeah sure it worked out in the long run, but in terms of the cost of propping up the South Vietnam regime and then the cost of the war, there's no way the US extracted back out that much before the fall of Saigon. And yeah a lot of the "cost" itself is just money transfer from government to the MIC but even with that, we plowed a lot of cash into trying to keep the puppet regime going.
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Mar 8, 2023 02:24
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That money was well spend destroying Vietnam because then Vietnam had to borrow to repair itself.
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Mar 8, 2023 07:40
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You might say they had to destroy Vietnam in order to save it
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Mar 8, 2023 07:46
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lol
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Mar 8, 2023 08:11
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Azathoth posted:An ancient tradition, to be sure. Very much like Athens or the early Roman yeah
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Mar 8, 2023 13:39
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Yeah but my Nikes are from Vietnam so you tell me who won
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Mar 8, 2023 13:42
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Weka posted:That money was well spend destroying Vietnam because then Vietnam had to borrow to repair itself. Broken window theory of state building.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:52
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