|
rex rabidorum vires posted:I only pulled numbers for 5v5 specifically to avoid special teams numbers. I could include powerplay/pk/all situations...and I specifically *always* use Matthews when trying to compare/contrast with Conor 'cause uh well that should be obvious shouldn't it? Oh I must have missed that, my bad. Either way it was still a good point I just wasn’t sure.
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 05:36 |
|
|
Spring Break My Heart posted:McDavid is about league average defensively and that's exactly where Crosby was in his peak years Show the math numbers Poindexter or get back under your bridge
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
So Connor McDavid is actually bad?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:30
|
|
|
If McDavid can barely drag the Oilers into playoffs despite scoring a billion points, how good is he really?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:32
|
|
|
rex rabidorum vires posted:I only pulled numbers for 5v5 specifically to avoid special teams numbers. I could include powerplay/pk/all situations...and I specifically *always* use Matthews when trying to compare/contrast with Conor 'cause uh well that should be obvious shouldn't it? I think it was Dom who said last year that with McDavid, it doesn't matter that he does jack poo poo defensively, because he's so ridiculous offensively that even if he gives back a bunch of it defensively, Matthews was the only guy close enough offensively that the defensive difference was close enough to actually matter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:38
|
|
|
The Dirty Burger posted:Penguins fans universally have a very weird thing about making GBS threads on McDavids play. I work with two of them and it’s hilarious hearing about how McDavid is overrated and doesn’t play defense. Yeah he’s at 2ppg, but how many of those points are at 5v5!? Wow you cracked the code. Yes Conor has to be *basically* be the best offensive player we've probably ever seen specifically because for those 2ppg he and his team are hovering in the wild card spot because they give most of it right back. And part of that 'lack of defense' comes from Conor himself. Now if you want to get into whether Conor playing more defense at the detriment to his offensive output would actually be a beneficial trade off.....well that is entirely a different conversation isn't it? Edit: ^^^ that's a dumb take then. At 5v5 Conor scores a ton and gives a ton back. His team is 'net' positive 53% of the time this year. Matthews, specifically, scores as much at 5v5 as McDavid AND gets scored on significantly less. Auston's team nets a positive of 2 goals for vs 1 against every 30 minutes Matthews plays. One of these outcomes puts your team significantly closer to winning a game than the other. Bergy is the other ultimate example of this though. This year Boston net gain of (nearly) 2 goals per 60 minutes played or 1 goal per 30 of ice time for Patrice Begeron puts that team in a significantly better position to win regardless of the total points tally. rex rabidorum vires fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:43
|
|
|
Ya’ll keep overlooking the most important argument about McDavid. He has zero cups and is therefore worthless trash.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:44
|
|
|
rex rabidorum vires posted:Oh hey it's the literal thing I wrote a bunch of bullshit about in the off-season about why Mathews is the vastly more valuable player. GA/60 doesn't tell you much that +/- doesn't. McDavid is better than Matthews on xGA/60 this season; so individualizing the metric somewhat actually ends up favoring McDavid. I don't think I'd actually go to the mat saying McDavid is better two-way than Matthews, but McDavid's defensive woes have been overstated historically and are especially so this season, and you don't even need fancystats to see it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 18:51
|
|
|
Spelling Mitsake posted:So Connor McDavid is actually bad? No defence is for loser dorks Cartoon Man posted:Ya’ll keep overlooking the most important argument about McDavid. He has zero cups and is therefore worthless trash. McDavid is gonna win a cup real soon but I want it to be clear that even when he does he (and the entire city of Edmonton and everything Edmonton adjacent) is worthless trash. ThinkTank fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Mar 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:01
|
|
|
ThinkTank posted:McDavid is gonna win a cup real soon but I want it to be clear that even when he does he (and the entire city of Edmonton and everything Edmonton adjacent) is worthless trash. you honestly think the Oilers are going to win a cup soon?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:04
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/markhmasters/status/1633121051445002243?s=46&t=2hVb1vPytx9OUpdE0UPz6Q Having 9 defenseman for playoff depth seems like a good idea on paper, unless your coach is Sheldon Keefe
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:04
|
|
|
(tapping head) Playoff depth is not a problem when your coach is Sheldon Keefe
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
Starsfan posted:you honestly think the Oilers are going to win a cup soon? Yes, I've felt strongly they will for a few years now. They'll get it right at some point in the next three. They're too talented and sadly now Skinner seems to be providing them the high level goaltending to make up for their defensive shortfalls they've lacked. They're my current cup pick.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
People like talking about two way players and how important they are, but it's way more fun to watch your star player score five points in a game that ends like 7-6 than it is to see responsible checking and good defensive habits in a 3-2 game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
Yeah but it's also really fun to watch your star player skate around with the Stanley Cup.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:08
|
|
|
I could see the Oilers winning the cup at some point in the next few years just because the West is largely trash and it's not inconceivable that the Oilers could get to the finals and then from there maybe just a little luck to beat whatever juggernaut comes out of the East
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:10
|
|
|
Starsfan posted:you honestly think the Oilers are going to win a cup soon? Not with a 2 man team they ain't
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
The Dirty Burger posted:Rasmus Sandin was a nice pick-up by the Caps, 23 years old and has 5 points in his first 2 games in Washington, and for Boston’s 1st, which is probably going to be late I don't think Dubas or his potential successor will be stupid/desperate enough to dump Liljegren just to keep Holl, but I may well be proven wrong. Cartoon Man posted:Ya’ll keep overlooking the most important argument about McDavid. He has zero cups and is therefore worthless trash. Conor McMathew sucks poo poo I agree.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:19
|
|
|
Spelling Mitsake posted:So Connor McDavid is actually bad? Yes. I have decided.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:31
|
|
|
rex rabidorum vires posted:Show the math numbers Poindexter or get back under your bridge https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1252353984754401280 https://twitter.com/IneffectiveMath/status/1177975050579988481/photo/1 I would consider Crosby's peak to start in 06/07 and end in 13/14. This also bears out in his regular stats where he's on ice for a pretty normal number of SA and a high number of GA. He gets punished in a lot of his earlier years for being on the Penguins when they were very shallow, had very shaky defenses and often some pretty bad goaltending. Of course this happens to an even greater degree with McDavid. For McDavid: https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1622287323198066688 https://twitter.com/domluszczyszyn/status/1498718751692369922/photo/1 https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1403007290840543234 Again this tracks with his regular stats. Basically every stat will show him as being better defensively than Draisaitl, and world's better than the frequently awful 3rd/4th liners that the Oilers have had. His defensive stats were really bad in individual years (same with Crosby) but fine in other years. Most offensive players are mediocre to bad defensively but your reputation is coloured by the team they play on, scouting reports from when they were draft prospects and like their relationship with the media or some other non-sense.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:32
|
|
|
McDavid unequivocally dogs it on defence but it doesn't matter all that much because he puts up a great A scoring chance or three every time he steps on the ice. If he starts to slow down in a few years that might be an issue but for now it's completely irrelevant to the Oilers fortunes. Darnell Nurse being just as ineffective at defence despite actually trying is a far bigger detriment.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:56
|
|
|
McDavid is the obvious MVP but I also love it when it goes to randos like Taylor Hall or Jamie Benn and McDavid already has plenty of them anyhow so I say get weird with it
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 19:57
|
|
|
If McDavid’s offense slows down he’ll just get traded to the Rangers anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
eXXon posted:I don't think Dubas or his potential successor will be stupid/desperate enough to dump Liljegren just to keep Holl, but I may well be proven wrong. There's like a 90% chance the next GM will be in the Lou/Burke big name, real hockey man mold so if it's not Dubas, they'll get rid of both of them to resign Schenn.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:01
|
|
|
I spent basically the entire first month of the season lamenting the play and ceilings of Sandin and Liljergren and I haven't really changed my views on that, but yeah it is a big problem that Keefe can't identify that there are worse players in that d corps he's giving a pass for some reason. Also the Leafs' worst defenseman this year is Morgan Rielly 
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
Good Soldier Svejk posted:McDavid is the obvious MVP but I also love it when it goes to randos like Taylor Hall or Jamie Benn and McDavid already has plenty of them anyhow so I say get weird with it The only retired Hart Trophy winners not in the HHOF is Jose Theodore and some dudes from the 50s. We're gonna have to have the "are Corey Perry and Taylor Hall HHOF worthy?" debate in a few years. I'd prefer we don't add to that stupid list because media types are bored of voting for McDavid. Outside of like two seasons he should've been the Hart trophy winner every year since his rookie season. He has 2 and is going to win a third, but the guy should have five by now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:10
|
|
|
ThinkTank posted:The best thing in the world would be if the Oilers flame out early in the playoffs and people start talking about Yzerman and having to learn defence to win championships and then McDavid's starts trying to stick lift and back check and his offence craters and his defence still sucks. By far the best option is that McDavid actually focuses on defence for a season, still puts up 150 points, but the Oilers' goaltending shits the bed and McDavid loses out on the Hart to whoever 2024's equivalent to Jamie Benn is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:15
|
|
|
Most of the hall is garbage it’s fine. It’s in a mall in Toronto. You enter through a food court.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:24
|
|
|
If they wanted to vote for Ullmark that would probably be a legit choice this year
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:29
|
|
|
Would it be crazy for Erik Karlsson to win the Norris on such an awful team? I'm sure it's happened before, right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:43
|
|
|
it takes a lot of effort and injury risk to play lights out defensively for a whole season. Connor both got better at offense and defense in the playoffs last year and played better individually than anyone since Mario Lemieux until he ran into the one defenseman who can almost skate with him having the best individual playoffs since Chris Pronger, who was also on a stacked team. he is fine-to-good at defense when it matters, which is doesn't really for Edmonton until they get into the playoffs. they're going to win the Cup this year.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:44
|
|
|
trilljester posted:Would it be crazy for Erik Karlsson to win the Norris on such an awful team? I'm sure it's happened before, right? Yes, he won with Ottawa.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:44
|
|
|
trilljester posted:Would it be crazy for Erik Karlsson to win the Norris on such an awful team? I'm sure it's happened before, right? I don't think Karlsson will win either. But I assume he gets nominated if he gets 100 points/maintains a healthy lead in defenseman scoring.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:Yes, he won with Ottawa. Ahh yeah that 2015 Ottawa team was bad. OK, at this point I'm just cheering for him to hit 100 points and win the Norris. One thing I've noticed from him this year is his skating is back to peak speed. The past couple of years he's been hurt and he looked like he was hauling a load of bricks around with him on the ice.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:49
|
|
|
I can't see a universe where Karlsson doesn't win the Norris if he puts up a 100+ point season. Who's even in competition with him this year? Josh Morrissey and?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 20:54
|
|
|
Every 30 games or so there's a bunch of new articles saying " is x better than mcdavid?" when joey baloney from the panthers goes on a 20 game greatest hockey of his life bender. Meanwhile Connor just keeps rockin out and in 30 games Peter Lasagna from Malmo will get the same article written.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 21:14
|
|
|
Sandin is really cool and good this is my new hockey opinion PS rig the lottery so the Caps can have Bedard and Ovi on the same line for a few years tia Batman
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 21:20
|
|
|
ThinkTank posted:I can't see a universe where Karlsson doesn't win the Norris if he puts up a 100+ point season. Who's even in competition with him this year? Josh Morrissey and? Right now it's Karlsson with 82 points, Morrissey with 67, and Rasmus Dahlin with 63. I know Winnipeg is in playoff contention and Buffalo is a big question mark to make the cut this year. It could be that we get a Norris winner who doesn't make the playoffs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 21:20
|
|
|
ThinkTank posted:I can't see a universe where Karlsson doesn't win the Norris if he puts up a 100+ point season. Who's even in competition with him this year? Josh Morrissey and? You mean objectively or discursively? Because isn't he literally the worst defenceman in the league by a pretty sizable margin once you factor in defence?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 21:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 05:36 |
|
|
Hey PAS, hands up, everyone who wouldn't trade Dumoulin straight up for "worst defenceman in the league" Erik Karlsson. ...anyone? Anyone?
|
|
#
?
Mar 7, 2023 21:23
|
|