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CainFortea posted:That's because they're not there to be examined. Yeah, one issue with modern Trek is that it spends too much time on the Federation itself, which was never meant to be the focus. What was established about it wasn't too detailed because we can't even imagine how something like that would work, and trying to focus on it tends to mean writers reframe it into 21st century terms and try to squeeze contemporary society into it which isn't great either. They fuckin love reintroducing scarcity when they want to cause problems in the Federation.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:02
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dr_rat posted:Are other civilizations that much on par though? sure, beyond the klingons and romulans even the ferengi are said to be roughly technological equals in TNG. there's also the cardassians, though i guess they might use latinum too i don't think we ever see the dominion use currency but they also definitely have a concept of it. quark trades with them and they also accept latinum apparently ...and so does the federation. honestly i guess we should all be using latinum 
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Mar 8, 2023 06:07
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PostNouveau posted:Joe Sisko's restaurant in the French Quarter and the Picard vineyard do not make a ton of sense. These things are handed down through lineage? You OWN a restaurant? There is a finite amount of space in the French Quarter, so presumably there are plenty of people who would love to run a restaurant there. You have waiters? Who is volunteering to wait tables there? Are they all your apprentices who you're "paying" by teaching them to be master Creole chefs? Okay, so lets call it prime land, is one of the things that you can't really get post scarcity about. It's not the thing itself that is valuable, there is probably many M class planets where you could make a vineyard, and you can open up a restaurant pretty much anywhere there is people to go to it (Or I mean even if there's not, and you just wanted to play restaurant owner but hated costumers I guess?). So when it's a thing where the location, that you can't replicate, not the thing, that you can, that is valuable, than even in a post scarcity population you need to figure out a loaning that land to. I am pretty sure Sksko nor Picard can sell that land. Like who would they sell it to? So than it's just get's into greater good ethics. Do those indvidual have greater happiness having the restaurant/vineyard in that location than others (yes, historical connections), do others get greater happiness form them having that locations than others. Going to assume Joe knows what he's doing in the kitchen and knows how to make a meal that is culturally tied to that location, so yes. Picards family had a very long tradition of growing and making traditional wine from that location, that people may want to try if they want a wine traditionally made from that location, so yeah, again it makes sense for them to have that location. Anyway long story short they should of just given both locations to Quark. He knows how to run a businesses. Both those god drat idiots were just leaving money on the table all over the place.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:09
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Hollismason posted:There's also civilizations that are allies of the Federation that are not post scarcity like the Klingons who are still on some sort of feudal system. That's a political system, not an economic system though. Does Q'onoS have UBI? We just don't know. Post-scarcity at the level the Federation has it is not incompatible with Ferengi capitalism. Everybody doesn't get to own their own moon. Grand Negus Rom could ensure that every Ferengi gets food, shelter, healthcare and the other necessities of life just like in the federation, but luxuries are still for sale and the 1% can still get rich and buy a moon. It would probably be great for their economy, because keeping people healthy means they can work more. Like in the Federation, I bet most Ferengi would continue to get jobs. Low status workers don't want to end the exploitation, they want to become the exploiters. They will continue to hustle and work for their dream of wealth. Klingons, Vulcans, Cardassians, etc., could all do the same thing. There's no reason not to provide every resident with safe housing and nutritious food because it costs almost nothing. It doesn't matter if their society is organized as feudal or fash, it's simply makes sense for everyone to get that minimum level of care, because letting people fall lower ends up causing problems. The outliers are Orions. They have actual slavery, so if someone becomes destitute they can be enslaved to pay their debts. That creates a perverse incentive to let people fail catastrophically. The replicators can't make people, so slaves are a luxury good like latinum.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:13
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dr_rat posted:Anyway long story short they should of just given both locations to Quark. He knows how to run a businesses. Both those god drat idiots were just leaving money on the table all over the place. Plopping down regular-rear end meatballs and calling them boudin and charging me 2 strips of latinum 
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Mar 8, 2023 06:18
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Picard established that Chateau Picard lay empty for a long time. The Picards wanted to come back to their ancestral home, they applied, they got it, they get to keep having it because they're continuing to make use of it.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:18
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MikeJF posted:Picard established that Chateau Picard lay empty for a long time. The Picards wanted to come back to their ancestral home, they applied, they got it, they get to keep having it because they're continuing to make use of it. Obviously nobody else even wanted it. That place is a death trap. No thank you, I will take a climate controlled apartment in one of the cool cities thank you very much.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:35
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It's a whole issue today that there's a bunch of Chateaus and stuff lying empty and decaying in Europe because fixing them up and maintaining them is a huge amount of work and cost. (The latter doesn't apply as much in Trek but still it's a massive amount of work)
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Mar 8, 2023 06:40
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MikeJF posted:It's a whole issue today that there's a bunch of Chateaus and stuff lying empty and decaying in Europe because fixing them up and maintaining them is a huge amount of work and cost. (The latter doesn't apply as much in Trek but still it's a massive amount of work) Yeah it's a people job. So you need a crew that wants to do all that detailed and dirty restoration work. You can't just set Meanwhile most of the guys really into medieval chateaus aren't even on earth. They all live in the medieval chateau cosplay colony.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:48
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Facebook Aunt posted:Meanwhile most of the guys really into medieval chateaus aren't even on earth. They all live in the medieval chateau cosplay colony. Wouldn't you? They have dragons.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:51
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External Organs posted:Data broke legs for bookies on the side (it's why the Yamato was destroyed) "A query: If I break this man's thumbs, will it not be substantially more difficult for him to earn the money he owes you?" "Data, let me do the thinking, alright? Now how's it going with that girl?" "I have purchased all of the animals in her store, but she has not reciprocated my interest."
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Mar 8, 2023 06:53
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The Federation is post heterosexuality.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:54
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Also there's a very easy answer to "omg how does Sisko's dad have a restaurant if there's no money?!?!?" gotcha that people like to drop. The community in the area allowed it. Through committee or whatever Sisko's dad wanted to run a restaurant, showed he could cook good food that the community would enjoy with a nice ambiance, and they were like "okay cool, do that. Here's the building. I just love your JAMBALAYA" The Federation as a whole is an idea of a community based on cooperation. There's probably some guy who's really good with appliances that helped hook up the stoves and stuff. Why? Because he's good at it and he likes being the oven guy.
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Mar 8, 2023 06:55
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Hollismason posted:It verifies my theory that the people you see in the Star Trek shows are the total loving weirdos that the Federation select because they'd otherwise be unhappy living in a utopia. Starfleet is for the budding fascist.
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Mar 8, 2023 07:14
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Ghostlight posted:bold thing to claim when the federation quite literally overwrote an indigenous alien culture with nazi germany. I don’t think John Gill was executing the wishes of the Federation there. I think he just went nuts, like every starfleet Captain in the 23rd century not named James Kirk.
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Mar 8, 2023 07:36
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MikeJF posted:Anyway, welcome to the thread, SMG, but if you're going to start with 'claiming the Federation is economically conservative' you're really going to have to do better. I've already shown that they put a guy who rejects Marx in charge of the federation flagship, running all kinds of diplomatic missions. And that's shouldn't be necessary because the onus is on you to show that the Federation actually is a leftist utopia. In the episode Pen Pals, Picard argues that slavery's not so bad. He was gonna kill Data! But I can be more specific, if you like. Next Generation Star Trek depicts a Keynesian "prosumer" economy. Federation citizens with access to replicators (or holodecks, which are just larger replicators) are hobbyist-consumers who exchange energy credits for the ability to print their own clothes and code utility-fog videogames or whatever. They have all the 'free time' to do this because the replicator technology has reduced the need for mass production. However, the technology used to do all this is immensely wasteful. Think of the amount of pure energy that must be converted to matter in order to replicate a single carrot. It's an absurd extravagance. The holodeck doesn't just display images but continually generates a tactile 'utility fog' using replicator technology. And the power to do all this replicating is generated in antimatter reactors from dilithium, a rare (and unreplicatable!) fuel source mined in space by corporations like Dytallix. The mining industry is kept largely or entirely offscreen, but somebody's doing it. There are workers - and are those workers paid in as many energy credits as a starship captain, or the CEO of a mining company? Besides the sheer amount of power needed to run a replicator, there is also the bandwidth needed to download new programs, and the cost of purchasing the 'blueprints' for replicated goods. The Federation has extremely strict intellectual property laws, hence why all holodeck programs we ever see being used are from the public domain, or are legally-distinct fan creations. (See also the Voyager episode "Author, Author") Anyways, that's just for the wealthiest Fed citizens. Huge numbers of planets in Federation space are "pre-warp", which means their inhabitants are all classified as non-citizens.
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Mar 8, 2023 07:40
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After ww3 killed half a billion people and then warp drive being invented 20 years later i figured the reason anyone can open a restraunt or a vineyard was that earth had huge amounts of emigration to space that resulted in even land was no longer scarce. Raffi picked that spot in the desert cause no one else wanted it, they could get their own mountain on alpha centauri if they wanted.
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Mar 8, 2023 07:44
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They also seem to socialize people to like being around other people. The cities are chock full of pleasant apartment buildings surrounded by greenspace. Apartments that are clean, safe, free from vermin, and just as healthy stroll away from numerous amenities. If you want to live some place historic, well, cockroaches and rats still exist and get in through the historic passages their ancestors have used for hundreds of years. The federation certainly isn't going to disrupt the local eco system to eradicate the rats in Chateau Picard -- get a cat or something. People don't resent the people living in historic chateau's or desert trailers because the city apartment is more desirable than either.
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Mar 8, 2023 07:54
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I don't know why I'm eating the bait.SuperMechagodzilla posted:I've already shown that they put a guy who rejects Marx in charge of the federation flagship You haven't remotely, as shown before. Now you're just ignoring the refutations, stating your previous assertion as fact, and then gish galloping on. quote:In the episode Pen Pals, Picard argues that slavery's not so bad. He says that invading another nation to eliminate slavery is an example of an ethical dilemma, particularly in the context of starship crews unilaterally making these decisions instead of Federation governance. quote:He was gonna kill Data! what quote:Next Generation Star Trek depicts a Keynesian "prosumer" economy. Federation citizens with access to replicators (or holodecks, which are just larger replicators) are hobbyist-consumers who exchange energy credits for the ability to print their own clothes and code utility-fog videogames or whatever. Nope, no general public energy credit currency has been alluded to outside of video games or people theorising. Stop using fan inventions as sources. quote:However, the technology used to do all this is immensely wasteful. Think of the amount of pure energy that must be converted to matter in order to replicate a single carrot. It's an absurd extravagance. The holodeck doesn't just display images but continually generates a tactile 'utility fog' using replicator technology. Replicators for almost all use don't convert from pure energy, they just beam material from elemental matter stores into the desired configuration, particularly replicators hooked up to planetary utility systems where they can access larger central stores. They can nucleosynthesise from energy if necessary but that's almost never the case. I have no idea where you got "tactile 'utility fog'" from, you should probably use better sources, sounds like you're pulling from some fanon theorising bullshit. Holodecks as of the end of the 24th century are largely images and forcefields, with possibly layering of replicated matter at a small scale for texturing purposes, although the system presumably dynamically picks the best method for any given interaction and it's shown that by and large forcefields alone can simulate most surfaces pretty well. quote:And the power to do all this replicating is generated in antimatter reactors from dilithium, a rare (and unreplicatable!) fuel source mined in space by corporations like Dytallix. The mining industry is kept largely or entirely offscreen, but somebody's doing it. There are workers - and are those workers paid in as many energy credits as a starship captain, or the CEO of a mining company? What energy credits. Also, dilithium isn't a fuel source, it's a control medium. Antimatter's the fuel. But antimatter isn't an energy source, it costs as much energy to make antimatter as it produces on annihilation. Antimatter is generated and used to fuel starships because it's the only way to store the necessary energy densities to use as warp fuel. It's entirely unnecessary and not used for planets. On planets, either large-scale geothermal taps, fusion, or solar energy is used. These are mature, simple and automated technologies that can be easily produced through replication. Energy in a developed star system is effectively unlimited in terms of consumer usage. quote:Besides the sheer amount of power needed to run a replicator, there is also the bandwidth needed to download new programs, and the cost of purchasing the 'blueprints' for replicated goods. The Federation has extremely strict intellectual property laws, hence why all holodeck programs we ever see being used are from the public domain, or are legally-distinct fan creations. (See also the Voyager episode "Author, Author") Intellectual property laws like that are shown to apply to artistic creations like stories. Anything you can scan into a replicator you can replicate, and as a result just about every replicator blueprint is publicly available. In addition, computers can easily generate designs for any given style or look for any object you might want that you can then customise and alter with intelligent heuristics before replicating, with ease, on the fly. quote:Anyways, that's just for the wealthiest Fed citizens. Huge numbers of planets in Federation space are "pre-warp", which means their inhabitants are all classified as non-citizens. Pre-warp planets aren't in Federation space. Their system would be considered their own territory, their peoples citizens of their own polities, and the Federation ensures Federation space won't interfere if they don't want to join on making contact and becoming an interstellar power. Every single step in your argument is based on false premises even before we get to the faulty logic. I know you want to come in and do the patented SMG disruptive thing, but you're clearly trying to just use a few half-formed memories, some googles that are giving you fanwank results, and typing things like 'intellectual property' into Memory Alpha, and whatever image of things you're getting back is so far off that nothing you say is coming remotely closing to hitting a mark. I grade your paper F, you have to prepare better. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 07:57
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CainFortea posted:Also there's a very easy answer to "omg how does Sisko's dad have a restaurant if there's no money?!?!?" gotcha that people like to drop. Yeah, and it should be noted that every restaurant we've ever seen has been tiny and cozy. They're all basically little environments where people share their cooking, and customers are privileged to enjoy it. I always imagine it's more like eating at a friend's house: you have to help clean up, you can get your own water, and if you're rude, you're out. The chefs bring out the food to the few tables, but there's no dedicated busboy. Larger-scale eating areas out in public would probably be replimats with self-cleaning setups. Although they'd probably still be very nice, and I imagine public and community areas like that would be decorated and such by the local community and given appropriate ambience. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 08:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I've already shown that they put a guy who rejects Marx in charge of the federation flagship, running all kinds of diplomatic missions. And that's shouldn't be necessary because the onus is on you to show that the Federation actually is a leftist utopia. In the episode Pen Pals, Picard argues that slavery's not so bad. He was gonna kill Data! lmao  this is literally just a bunch of poo poo you made up
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Mar 8, 2023 08:19
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MikeJF posted:Nope, no general public energy credit currency has been alluded to outside of video games or people theorising. "Credits" are referred to repeatedly in Kirk Trek, and there's no indication they've ever gone away. (Beyond technical limitations, what prevents me from mashing the 'print' button and replicating a quadrillion Volkswagen New Beetles?) You're doing a lot of semantic quibbling instead of just straightforwardly showing what's socioeconomically progressive/egalitarian about the Federation. Like, I will grant that they have seemingly low unemployment. What else? As for your other points, in the meantime: -'Beaming' is matter-to-energy conversion so, yes, replicated food is made of pure energy. (Also, where is the elemental matter coming from? That's a rhetorical question.) -'Forcefields and replicated matter' are effectively what utility fog is. The point is that, instead of traditional glove-and-helmet VR, physical 'voxels' are generated by the projectors to create an inhabitable environment, which is rather wasteful. -"Also, dilithium isn't a fuel source, it's a control medium [...] solar energy is used." Ok, sure. But my point was about the existence of the dilithium mining industry, which is run by mining companies. And, at the rate that the trekkers are going through energy, even a star would be quickly exhausted. At every step of the process, from solar power to carrot, there will be unconscionable waste. -A star system that's completely surrounded by Federation territory is inside that territory.
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Mar 8, 2023 08:47
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I think a starship exploring unknown areas of space lacks the unlimited resources of its government and is forced to ration the energy usage, so: credits
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Mar 8, 2023 08:58
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So credits are a mutually agreed upon federation currency that really only has use outside of the federation? If that's the case, I wonder what the reasoning behind other currencies is. Ferengi currency seems to be in use for quite a few species. Is there a credits to gold pressed latinum conversion rate? Is latinum replicatable and does it matter?
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Mar 8, 2023 09:08
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The Demilich posted:So credits are a mutually agreed upon federation currency that really only has use outside of the federation? It’s all on the blockchain my friend
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Mar 8, 2023 10:00
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Latinum is not replicateable. The gold that encases it is worthless because it can be replicated.
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Mar 8, 2023 10:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"Credits" are referred to repeatedly in Kirk Trek, and there's no indication they've ever gone away. (Beyond technical limitations, what prevents me from mashing the 'print' button and replicating a quadrillion Volkswagen New Beetles?) "A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy." Captain Picard, "The Neutral Zone" People don't jam on the replicator button because, when your basic needs are met to your satisfaction and you can have anything at your whim, there's no need to have anything to excess. Probably the least plausible yet most optimistic postulate of Star Trek is that society in aggregate can grow the gently caress up.
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Mar 8, 2023 10:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You're doing a lot of semantic quibbling instead of just straightforwardly showing what's socioeconomically progressive/egalitarian about the Federation. Nah, can't be bothered when the burden of proof lies on the one making extraordinary claims here, dude, and that's you (and you're failing miserably at it). And if by semantic quibbling you mean pointing out that every single foundation underlying your arguments is based on false premises, sure. SuperMechagodzilla posted:"Credits" are referred to repeatedly in Kirk Trek, and there's no indication they've ever gone away. You were specifically referring to energy credits, as supporting evidence for your hypothesised high levels of energy scarcity that force the Federation into a 21st century style economy. Federation Credits were a simple currency in use during TOS. No indication in any way of energy credits. The evidence that this currency is gone is repeated explicit statements onscreen from multiple characters that currency is no longer in use. I'm sure you'll try to vaguely infer something that might imply currency still exists and then declare it must be so in contradiction of the multiple statements that it doesn't, because your purpose here is to pick an inflammatory argument and use fallacious arguments to back it up in order to inflame a thread, not to make any kind of real statement. quote:(Beyond technical limitations, what prevents me from mashing the 'print' button and replicating a quadrillion Volkswagen New Beetles?) Well, people at the local industrial replicator are going to get the supervisor to ask you to step aside because you're hogging it. Eventually, though, you manage to acquire your own industrial replicator. You replicate beetles over and over. This doesn't make a peep on the local infrastructure, because it's designed to support the everyday usage of about ten billion people and the rate at which you can replicate doesn't touch on that, but they start to overflow and you get a visit from the local organisers. "You've gotta get approval for large scale art exhibits like this", they say, peering at your pile, "and I'm not sure what statement you're trying to make here." "It's not art, I'm trying to prove that this isn't a utopia!" you spit, punching 'repeat' on the control panel over and over. They peer worriedly at you, and call someone to cut off the replicator because the cars are starting to fall onto the neighbours house. They also call a psych eval. quote:Like, I will grant that they have seemingly low unemployment. Not even sure where you got this - we've not seen that much evidence that there's employment at all amoungst the mass of the population, outside of things like Starfleet and infrastructure organisers, because employment as a concept is for currency-based societies. Most people have occupations, which they choose to do for the sake of doing. quote:-'Beaming' is matter-to-energy conversion so, yes, replicated food is made of pure energy. (Also, where is the elemental matter coming from? That's a rhetorical question.) Only in the sense that all matter is energy, yes. In a beam, the source of the output energy is the original matter of the atoms being moved. They're shifted from their existing state - a stable quanta of energy which we call an atom - into a different kind of energy, transited to the destination, and rematerialised. The power input to the system is to operate on it, not to create matter. Now, everyone pay attention here, this is a good example of fallacy and false rhetoric techniques. His original argument was that replication must use an enormous amount of energy because it's creating matter out of energy supplied by the power system. He then learned that replication is transporter based. He was and clearly aware that transporters move things and don't generate their result out of power provided ("Beaming' is matter-to-energy conversion" - so he knows it goes matter-energy-matter). This invalidates the original logic he used to claim that replication is incredibly energy intensive. However, he didn't address that, and instead just repeated the common word - 'energy' - and continued on as through his original argument was still totally valid. quote:-"Also, dilithium isn't a fuel source, it's a control medium [...] solar energy is used." Your point was that companies of some form exist, and must therefore be exploitative, despite this being a nation with universal free luxury for anyone regardless of employment. There's no connective reason there. Also you claimed that Federation luxury depends on them on a massive scale because their providing of dilithium provides all power to the federation in your hypothetical limited-energy economy, which isn't remotely the case. (Indeed, when earth went isolationist in the 32nd century, left the Federation, and encased themselves inside the planetary shield, they maintained themselves as a paradise for their citizens without use of dilithium at all) quote:And, at the rate that the trekkers are going through energy, even a star would be quickly exhausted. At every step of the process, from solar power to carrot, there will be unconscionable waste. Your logic that they're going through enormous amounts of energy has been demonstrated invalid. And also, myself and anyone with a basic grounding in astro just laughed at the idea of them exhausting a star like that. quote:-A star system that's completely surrounded by Federation territory is inside that territory. First off, are you claiming that the people of Lesotho are actually disenfranchised South Africans? Secondly, space is large, and 3D, and it's been stated that the Federation won't encroach on the ability of non-members to have fully independent existence and territory, which means neutral corridors. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 10:23
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We only see public domain and original works on the holodeck because the real life producers would have to license anything under copyright. Dr Bashir, I Presume was too close to the line, it got them a letter from MGM that basically said "Very amusing, now don't do it again."
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Mar 8, 2023 12:10
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Dabir posted:We only see public domain and original works on the holodeck because the real life producers would have to license anything under copyright. Dr Bashir, I Presume was too close to the line, it got them a letter from MGM that basically said "Very amusing, now don't do it again." Which is, incidentally, bullshit, it was absolutely a fair-use parody, but while they may have won it wouldn't be worth the fight and also not worth the bad blood between Paramount and MGM.
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Mar 8, 2023 12:34
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Automatic Slim posted:Latinum is not replicateable. The gold that encases it is worthless because it can be replicated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6QdY6YDfj0
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Mar 8, 2023 16:21
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Here's what Herbert Marcuse said when asked about whether or not the economy in Star Trek made sense: https://www.marcuse.org/herbert/soundvideo/67LondonConf.wav
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Mar 8, 2023 16:36
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Post Scarcity Trek again makes no loving sense economically because its shown multiple times that Federation citizens do use currency. I can't just go to the industrial replicators and generate a space ship if I want one.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:53
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nobody ever talks about the fact that big fuckoff spaceships require big fuckoff amounts of materials. do they ever mention 'mercury' or 'pluto' still existing in the star trek universe....?
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Mar 8, 2023 16:53
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Hollismason posted:Post Scarcity Trek again makes no loving sense economically because its shown multiple times that Federation citizens do use currency. Not being able to make a spaceship at the industrial replicators is probably based more on safety regulations than a form of scarcity though. I’m sure* the energy requirements to make every citizen a ship are available, they just don’t want every rear end in a top hat to have a matter-antimatter bomb whenever they want. *I have decided in my head
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Mar 8, 2023 16:59
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Look it's not real socialism if any random citizen can't create a fleet of battleships on a whim. The Federation is clearly a degenerated workers state and we must provide critical support to their Cardassian enemies
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Mar 8, 2023 17:01
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StashAugustine posted:Look it's not real socialism if any random citizen can't create a fleet of battleships on a whim.  Marx spoke on this in his seminal letter to Engels, "Hey Can You Send Me 50 Pounds I'm a Bit Short This Month?"
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Mar 8, 2023 17:10
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post-scarcity is an unfortunate phrase, it always causes these 'well resources aren't *actually* unlimited' arguments. i like to think of it as like, post-money as an organizing principle. A million people are trying to score one of Sisko's restaraunt 10 tables every single night. You can show up with 100 million bars of gold pressed latinum and sisko dgaf, he doesn't want a moon - he wants to run a restaraunt and he's living his best life. So how do you score a table? By being someone Sisko wants to meet, or by knowing someone with a connection, or as payment for a favor done previously. what i'm trying to say is that the Federation is entirely run by nepobabies and tiktok stars
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Mar 8, 2023 17:25
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Just imagine how insufferable a social media-star could get on an intergalactic scale.
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Mar 8, 2023 17:34
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Stop arguing with SMG you morons, you're just making him more
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Mar 8, 2023 17:34
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