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thetoughestbean posted:I’m of German and Italian descent and was raised Catholic—where would I fall here? Would I be an anglo? What does descent have to do with it? You speak english, don't look brown, and you're an american citizen by birth. You're as WASPy as they make 'em, you perfidious english man
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Mar 8, 2023 07:01
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We're not categorizing inanimate objects by grammatical gender because we think they are literally gendered, we are doing it for no reason whatsoever  get rekt anglos
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Mar 8, 2023 07:32
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"Latin-*" is just a historical chiffre for "speaks something derived from latin". Once established, the term softens up as history requires. Another example would be the latin monetary union of late 19th century europe. (Please ignore the second part of "Bimetalism failure" and focus on "Debasement of the coinage", thank you.) I'm France, forming an international union with myself for about 20 years, according to this map. Wipfmetz has a new favorite as of 09:07 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 08:48
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thetoughestbean posted:No, I know that. I just find it weird to use it to mean English-speakers. Sounds like a "you" problem.
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Mar 8, 2023 09:12
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Samovar posted:Gendered language is so, so dumb. Yeah, the people who sat down and planned it out like that really should have gone with something else. What were they thinking? But since that's not how any living language came to be, calling the way many languages work "dumb" seems kind of pointless. Offler has a new favorite as of 12:27 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 10:30
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Offler posted:Yeah, the people who sat down and planned it out like that really should have gone with something else. What were they thinking? Some peoples are too "dumb" to have evolved a non-gendered language, obviously! 
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Mar 8, 2023 10:34
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Here's some gendered language: "He is Odin's man": The Danish National Museum has just published the so-far earliest written mention of the name Odin, found on an early 5th century bracteate (previously the earliest was late 6th century), depicting a king or chieftain called Jaga or Jagaz. The horse on the bracteate is possibly called "the tall" or "the beloved". It was discovered in 2020 in a massive gold hoard in Vindelev (very close to the 10th century Jelling stones) by a metal detector hobby archaeologist. The hoard also contained four 4th century Roman medallions, and may have been buried in connection with the volcanic winter of 536 or the Justinian plague shortly after. Over the years, a number of near-identical bracteates have been found in other areas of Denmark, but with less legible writing. The multiple bracteates suggest that Jaga had considerable reach. https://natmus.dk/nyhed/verdens-aeldste-indskrift-med-odin-fundet-paa-vindelevguld/
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Mar 8, 2023 10:57
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Deteriorata posted:Traditionally, Anglo is a Latin prefix specifically applied to Britain by historians. The Anglo-Dutch War or Anglo-American relations or Anglo-French cooperation or whatever. Our joke  history with the queen on their money mentions Anglophone and Francophones in their history lessons. It usually has to do with the internal tensions between the two groups and the later rebellions/etc.. ”Two nations warring in the bosom of a single state..”
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Mar 8, 2023 12:37
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Deteriorata posted:Traditionally, Anglo is a Latin prefix specifically applied to Britain by historians. The Anglo-Dutch War or Anglo-American relations or Anglo-French cooperation or whatever. I'm not sure what you mean by traditionally. Anglo is so called because of a germanic tribe called the Angles who, along with the Saxons, settled in first century celtic Britain. This is why the English language at that time is called Anglo-Saxon. But you're mostly right. Calling anyone who is white a WASP doesn't make any sense to me, but then language changes every day, so it doesn't matter what I think.
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Mar 8, 2023 14:05
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caspergers posted:I'm not sure what you mean by traditionally. Anglo is so called because of a germanic tribe called the Angles who, along with the Saxons, settled in first century celtic Britain. This is why the English language at that time is called Anglo-Saxon. But you're mostly right. Calling anyone who is white a WASP doesn't make any sense to me, but then language changes every day, so it doesn't matter what I think. Nah, WASP still specifically means white Anglo-Saxon Protestants
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Mar 8, 2023 14:09
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thetoughestbean posted:Nah, WASP still specifically means white Anglo-Saxon Protestants I think they meant anyone as in everyone. It's hosed up that anyone can mean everyone as well as someone but there you go.
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Mar 8, 2023 14:15
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3D Megadoodoo posted:I think they meant anyone as in everyone. It's hosed up that anyone can mean everyone as well as someone but there you go. thetoughestbean posted:Nah, WASP still specifically means white Anglo-Saxon Protestants Well it's like the word nazi. A racist is not a literal nazi because he doesn't belong to the nazi party, but when a word is used in a negative context the word tends to become more generalized. Look at the F slur; I imagine it's used in a homophobic context only about 30% of the time. Same here with WASP. Despite its initial use, it now carries a certain connotation that can be applied to, say, white slavs. It doesn't matter what it used to mean. Only the usage of language can determine its meaning, not its initial ends.
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Mar 8, 2023 14:30
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My ancestors were poor working class Irish Catholics who left the old country around the end of the famine, calling me an anglo is fighting words 
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Mar 8, 2023 14:37
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so what twitter influencer started this words are meaningless fad because it's in like every thread now
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Mar 8, 2023 14:37
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Any english speaker I don't like is an anglo
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Mar 8, 2023 14:37
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venus de lmao posted:My ancestors were poor working class Irish Catholics who left the old country around the end of the famine, calling me an anglo is fighting words And yet you're posting from an angloPhone - curious! Biplane posted:Any english speaker I don't like is an anglo Same; every English-speaker is an Anglo.
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Mar 8, 2023 14:39
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3D Megadoodoo posted:And yet you're posting from an angloPhone - curious! perkele
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Mar 8, 2023 14:40
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3D Megadoodoo posted:And yet you're posting from an angloPhone - curious! 
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Mar 8, 2023 14:45
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hawowanlawow posted:so what twitter influencer started this words are meaningless fad because it's in like every thread now stupid autocorrect keeps changing 'fact' to 'fad'
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Mar 8, 2023 15:19
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the holy poopacy posted:We're not categorizing inanimate objects by grammatical gender because we think they are literally gendered, we are doing it for no reason whatsoever Compare that to English where we just start making noises and figure it out later. For example English speaker is a mouthful, anglophone sounds too nerdy. Shorten it to anglo and now you've got people asking why does that apply to me, my ancestor was no angle fucker. Yet you speak the language of the angle fuckers, very curious.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:52
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zedprime posted:Language genders help noises link and flow better when working correctly. Why and how is a lamp masculine in german?
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Mar 8, 2023 17:21
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caspergers posted:Why and how is a lamp masculine in german? a lamp isn't Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 18:07 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 17:36
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Gender's just a subset of noun class. In 2023 we can probably just stick to noun class. I mean we probably could as soon as we looked at German and scratched our head about "what do you mean there's also neuter, that's ridiculous. Maedchen is neuter? You're insane." The easy introduction to noise linking/flow is to take a gendered language you're fluent in and say the wrong article. It's going to feel hosed up. This doesn't mean the object is a man, it means the pronunciation had an affinity with grammatical tools previously associated with the male gender. English as a chaos language has sort of adopted, chewed up, and spit out noun class into a growing web of bullshit that sometimes requires different words to be grammatical or sometimes might just manifest as different sounds when you're actually talking and you're expected to just know by being fluent. The sandwich was tasty The King of England is visiting I say the different in these two sentences. Maybe you don't. A language with stricter noun classes might formalize this with different articles and have a codified learnable set of grammar rules. English just says whatever man.
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Mar 8, 2023 17:56
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Carthag Tuek posted:a lamp isn't not masculine, its just part of a set of words using the same grammatical forms. some of those things are thought of as masculine (eg men) and some aren't (eg tables). then dumb grammarians called the set masculine But the rest of the sentence has to be conjugated. That means the language accidentally developed that way and the only logic behind it is "thats how it is" which is all fine and good, but let's put aside gender and look at the articles. If doesn't matter if it's nominative or genitive, certain nouns have different articles and I would like to know the reason. Dumb grammarians may have decided what masculine, feminine or neutral, but the conjugated articles themselves would have developed just use of language. E: I see how it works in poetry, so I guess native speakers know by intuition which article flows best according to the sound of the noun. It's just extremely frustrating learning these articles and I feel like I'd get looked at weird for using the wrong article on what I would guess as a neutral noun. caspergers has a new favorite as of 18:06 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 18:03
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zedprime posted:English as a chaos language has sort of adopted, chewed up, and spit out noun class into a growing web of bullshit that sometimes requires different words to be grammatical or sometimes might just manifest as different sounds when you're actually talking and you're expected to just know by being fluent. As an English apologist (the language, not the people), I would say English is actually quite well structured (grammatically speaking, but I guess you're talking more about sound), it's the spelling which is the most inconsistent.* I mean yeah, it's changed beyond recognition; interestingly enough, before the Norman conquest, English was also a gendered language. *there are obviously a few grammatical no-nos that dumb academics made, like split infinitive, ending sentences with prepositions, etc. Also, one feature English has, that other germanic languages don't, is the auxiliary verbs we picked up from the celts. Yeah, English has taken a ton of influence. But besides the spelling, I think they've only enriched our language. You right tho, it do sound p ugly sometimes caspergers has a new favorite as of 18:15 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 18:10
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You can see the whole flow concept pretty well in the way how loanwords are treated. E.g. in German, the grammatical gender for English loanwords is assigned based pretty much purely on vibes, on what sounds "right". Take "ketchup", for example. Some people say "der Ketchup" (masculine), some say "das Ketchup" (neuter), and both generally work and are accepted. But if you were to say "die Ketchup" (feminine), you'd be considered a madman. That just sounds extremely wrong to any native speaker on an instinctive level. The same goes for just about any other loanword. When a new loanword comes into common parlance there's no formal process for assigning a grammatical gender, most of the time people will just automatically agree on which version sounds right and go with that.
Perestroika has a new favorite as of 18:26 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 18:21
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caspergers posted:But the rest of the sentence has to be conjugated. That means the language accidentally developed that way and the only logic behind it is "thats how it is" which is all fine and good, but let's put aside gender and look at the articles. If doesn't matter if it's nominative or genitive, certain nouns have different articles and I would like to know the reason. Dumb grammarians may have decided what masculine, feminine or neutral, but the conjugated articles themselves would have developed just use of language. The "reason" they exist predates known history (and Proto-Indo-European was way more complex than, say, German), so your guess is as good as mine.
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Mar 8, 2023 18:23
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My pet theory -- based only on a native speaker's but non-linguist's understanding of  languages -- is that the "gender" of nouns is derived from the sound of pronouns:An object would be "feminine" if it ends in -a, "neuter" if it ends in -o, and otherwise "masculine." It maps to the endings of she ("ona"), it ("ono"), and he ("on", which I suppose is the... root pronoun if such a thing exists). There are exceptions but that's generally how it works. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe it can be traced back to PIE, but it makes some sense to me. The exercise of applying that to other languages is left to the reader. 
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Mar 8, 2023 18:47
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I think we should add or remove genitals from words until they're right
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Mar 8, 2023 19:24
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I was told that even within France different areas would use different male/female pronouns about items and it would also be a tell if a certain person was from that area based upon how they applied le/la (historically).
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Mar 8, 2023 22:19
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If I spoke fluent German, went to Germany but used only neutral articles, how strange do you think people would find it? Do you think any of them would get angry? I don't know why I need to know this
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Mar 8, 2023 23:06
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caspergers posted:If I spoke fluent German, went to Germany but used only neutral articles, how strange do you think people would find it? Do you think any of them would get angry? I don't know why I need to know this If you das all the time they might tell you to die
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Mar 8, 2023 23:11
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Perestroika posted:You can see the whole flow concept pretty well in the way how loanwords are treated. E.g. in German, the grammatical gender for English loanwords is assigned based pretty much purely on vibes, on what sounds "right". Take "ketchup", for example. Some people say "der Ketchup" (masculine), some say "das Ketchup" (neuter), and both generally work and are accepted. But if you were to say "die Ketchup" (feminine), you'd be considered a madman. That just sounds extremely wrong to any native speaker on an instinctive level. The same goes for just about any other loanword. When a new loanword comes into common parlance there's no formal process for assigning a grammatical gender, most of the time people will just automatically agree on which version sounds right and go with that. <Mr. Burns confused between der Ketchup and das Ketchup.jpg>
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Mar 8, 2023 23:11
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You cannot both be said to be fluent and speak incorrectly constantly.
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Mar 8, 2023 23:11
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I don't think misapplying noun classes qualifies you as fluent but ignoring that if you didn't or couldn't explain yourself I think you'd encounter either violence or psychological referrals in the first 24 hours.
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Mar 8, 2023 23:13
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Gaius Marius posted:You cannot both be said to be fluent and speak incorrectly constantly. for all intensive purposes you can
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Mar 8, 2023 23:13
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By shedding this, English has freed itself of the burden of Proto Indo European, is what I’m getting here.
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Mar 8, 2023 23:26
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Gaius Marius posted:You cannot both be said to be fluent and speak incorrectly constantly. I have such a mastery of my native language that I get to gently caress with it on purpose constantly.
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Mar 8, 2023 23:29
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zedprime posted:The sandwich was tasty I feel like this example is more a matter of context than a property of the specific nouns involved, so I'm not sure it's a great example. Ultimately it's all arbitrary bullshit either way, you're not going to arrive at anything sensible or elegant unless you go deep into useless conlangs.
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Mar 9, 2023 00:01
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Perestroika posted:When a new loanword comes into common parlance there's no formal process for assigning a grammatical gender, most of the time people will just automatically agree on which version sounds right and go with that. How inefficient of the Germans.
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Mar 9, 2023 00:08
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