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Ardennes posted:Speer got production to rapidly increase in 42, but really he only had full control of the economy by mid-1943, and by Autumn 1944 production dropped off as bombing and resources both became an issue. There was never serious nationalization (as the Nazis were fighting FOR those owners), and as mentioned, German techniques even during 'total war" were slow and antiquated and many German designs were not really appropriate for the war they were fighting. Even during total war after mid-1943, the German government was "working alongside" German industry by giving them everything they wanted including what remaining resources and slave labor, and in turn, the results provided by industry were underwhelming compared to allied output. Iirc Tooze argues that Speer's production increase was basically directly related to increased inputs of raw materials and everything else was accounting tricks
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Mar 10, 2023 17:03
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Relevant Tangent posted:twitter headline
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Mar 10, 2023 17:07
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Relevant Tangent posted:lol if russia can't reverse-engineer those themselves what does that say about russian tech i think they are using us tech as payment for iranian military equipment like drones
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Mar 10, 2023 17:14
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Did I already post about how many German shells and mortar bombs were sabotaged by slave labour or was that in the Ukraine thread? They even left notes inside them sometimes 
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Mar 10, 2023 17:34
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javelins have been in use for almost 25 years and the stinger is even older, so i'm about 100% sure that the russians have gotten their hands on and taken apart both systems ages ago with this in mind russia sending captured examples to iran is clearly not about unlocking the mysteries of the western wunderwaffe but rather about doing a solid for their buddy
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Mar 10, 2023 17:39
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Relevant Tangent posted:lol if russia can't reverse-engineer those themselves what does that say about russian tech Relevant Tangent posted:not bothering to read propaganda lol these two posts together are emblematic of cspam "actually I didn’t read it cause it's fake, but, yes I did credulously take the headline at face value initially"
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Mar 10, 2023 17:43
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Granted, I don't think the US would even go as far as the Germans did by instituting consumer price controls during the 1930s, the American solution would just be to throw trillions at the issue hope it works. Part of the reason the devalution from COVID wasn't as immediately apparent was because most other major countries were putting out their own stimulus packages which meant the relative devalution from the US was fairly modest, but as time as gone on, the US has been continually locked into higher rate increases. I could see a heightened version of this occuring as the only way the US would have to keep the dollar anywhere stable is pretty much to burn the American economy to the ground to try to make up for the trillions it would have to hand over the MIC. I would also say the results would probably be underwhelming, especially with something like shipbuilding which is extremely infrastructure intensive.
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Mar 10, 2023 17:43
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Regarde Aduck posted:i think they tested it in so much as they dropped one in a pool of water and it didn't immediately flood It was used in action successfully in 1941 to cross some rivers in Russia or Poland. Pz III's and IV's KomradeX posted:They bolted a snorkel onto a Panzer III, it didn't work It worked. Probably wouldn't have worked in the Channel tho
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Mar 10, 2023 17:48
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KomradeX posted:It doesnt matter how many fascist tricks the US pulls if something like subborning capitalism to needs of the State is impossible in modern American society. Again is anyone in American political class capable of saying no corporations you have to produce what we tell you to keep the war effort going and introduce rationing so that the American people have access to basic food stuffs? These Mckinsey assholes that run American governance are going to do any of that? Which is going to lead to mass social upheaval when mass harship introduced by total war (assuming nuclear war doesnt end it quickly) make living actually impossible. And when the contradictions of the every expanding needs of capitalism come to a direct confrontation with China, US capital will just, what, die? Give up? It just seems so bizarre to me that the needs of the capital class restraining imperialism is the reason why we would not go to war, when that's actually the liberal take. It's the take that predicted global conflicts were impossible due to the interconnected nature of world trade. That assumption proved very wrong several times over.
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Mar 10, 2023 18:11
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I'll grant that under the precisely present conditions, dragging the US into such a conflict is unlikely, but that is because it's not currently in the interest of the capital class. But imperial conflict is inevitable. And when that clash comes to a head all the propaganda apparatus people are saying no longer exists will be very apparent. We see glimpses of it even now. Very bizarre to me to say that's somehow obsolete.
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Mar 10, 2023 18:14
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Ardennes posted:Granted, I don't think the US would even go as far as the Germans did by instituting consumer price controls during the 1930s, the American solution would just be to throw trillions at the issue hope it works. Yeah part of this analysis has to include the pluralism of American oligarchy, not every wealthy and powerful interest stands to benefit from a war and many stand to lose massively. Price controls would be politically impossible in the face of the potential lost profits. We’d more likely see public subsidies to ensure profits are high while trying to prevent a consumer revolt. Which would only exacerbate the impacts on the dollar.
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Mar 10, 2023 18:21
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PhilippAchtel posted:And when the contradictions of the every expanding needs of capitalism come to a direct confrontation with China, US capital will just, what, die? Give up? Moron, the needs of capital have neutered the political classes abilty to defend it. Do you think a system that is all about putting the needs of Capital first is going to be able to effectively dictate to it in order to save it. Especially when were talking about how literal Nazi Germany ran into the same problem and failed for the same reasons the US will fail. Christ no one is arguing that economics means no world war, the argument is that the total success of Capitalism within the US has lead to a point where the US is incapable of actually waging a war on global peer on peer scale. Not that it won't try to do it, but that actually doing the war part is not sustainable for the various reasons that have been listed from no one is going to volunteer for a useless war against China and people are going to try and dodge that draft, to the loss of productive capacity in the US, and a deep ideological aversion to and constraints on Capital will make things like rationing impossible. Capitalism hasn't prevented the US from starting World War III but it has ensured that it will lose that War (and than kill all human life)
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Mar 10, 2023 18:47
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Neoliberalism makes war impossible in real terms because war requires the expansion of a powerful state acting in the national interest. The HESH thing so perfectly embodies that it’s almost to the point of parody.
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Mar 10, 2023 18:50
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Trabisnikof posted:Yeah part of this analysis has to include the pluralism of American oligarchy, not every wealthy and powerful interest stands to benefit from a war and many stand to lose massively. Price controls would be politically impossible in the face of the potential lost profits. Basically, neoliberalism really only has one response to crisis more which state spending/subsidization without consequence. In a true war time scenario, either the state makes sure everyone important gets what they want or there will be immediate splits. Walmart isn't going to eat poo poo for Lockmart. The problem is this assumes a limitless demand for the USD internationally, and I think we may have reached its limits. It is why China absolutely wants to play the long-game here because they know every year they can push it further, not only are they getting stronger but the contradictions of the American state are playing themselves out further. (I believe the PRC is also aware eventually how desperate the US is going to get and is trying to plan accordingly including a fleet of new ballistic nuclear submarines.)
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Mar 10, 2023 19:06
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Nuclear war will begin with a surprise attack by the west
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Mar 10, 2023 19:08
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bedpan posted:Nuclear war will begin with a surprise attack by the west Eventually DC is going to decide if they can't have it, no one can. Probably around the time Nancy Pelosi starts dying around the age of 107
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Mar 10, 2023 19:12
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bedpan posted:Nuclear war will begin with a surprise attack by the west well they better act soon or else *taps thread title*
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Mar 10, 2023 19:15
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Fortunately when the rockets go up they're going to find little notes inside that read "IOU one rocket engine... Sincerely Lockmart Enterprises"
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Mar 10, 2023 19:31
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Ardennes posted:It is why China absolutely wants to play the long-game here because they know every year they can push it further, not only are they getting stronger but the contradictions of the American state are playing themselves out further. (I believe the PRC is also aware eventually how desperate the US is going to get and is trying to plan accordingly including a fleet of new ballistic nuclear submarines.) China’s growth is export driven. acting in a way that starts causing barriers to exports restricts their future growth. The long game would be to not get closer to an international pariah state, beginning a long term trend of the west divorcing themselves from Chinese exports. The smarter move would be to get closer to the west and continue to grow rapidly. that’s also the smarter move for the west. but it’s not going to happen.
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Mar 10, 2023 19:39
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KomradeX posted:Moron, the needs of capital have neutered the political classes abilty to defend it. Do you think a system that is all about putting the needs of Capital first is going to be able to effectively dictate to it in order to save it. Especially when were talking about how literal Nazi Germany ran into the same problem and failed for the same reasons the US will fail. Yes, it would lose that war, as would everyone. Yes, the contradictions of capitalism weaken its ability to defend itself. I'm not making the point you think I am. Saying the US would go fasc when capitalism is threatened, that it would attempt total war, is all but conceding the point I was making! The original point was that the US did not have the ability to marshal propaganda to support such a war due to the faceted nature of modern media, mind.
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Mar 10, 2023 19:49
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iranians are pretty good at reverse engineering western/american tech and creating their own domestic supply chains for their own use (ie- the F-14) so it's not so much as the russians are incapable of doing so (they are plenty capable), they just don't need to (because they already have their own equivalent and/or better systems) and this is more or less a request from the iranians
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Mar 10, 2023 19:51
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Bar Ran Dun posted:China’s growth is export driven. acting in a way that starts causing barriers to exports restricts their future growth. It hasn't been primarily export driven in a while man. PhilippAchtel posted:Yes, it would lose that war, as would everyone. America's only "comeback strategy" is just nukes and in all honesty it would probably get hit far harder than Russia/China if they coordinated their strikes. The point is that China simply works fundamentally differently than the US, and it is to its benefit regardless of how you want to classify it. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 20:07 on Mar 10, 2023 |
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Mar 10, 2023 20:04
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also the bri and rcep exist
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Mar 10, 2023 20:10
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Ardennes posted:
What about the mineshaft gap though?
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Mar 10, 2023 20:17
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Ardennes posted:It hasn't been primarily export driven in a while man. export is about 20% of their GDP in 2022. and it’s also about where the growth is not just much much of the economy it makes up as a flat percentage.
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Mar 10, 2023 20:17
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yellowcar posted:also the bri and rcep exist Yeah, but China's economy itself is primarily driven at this point by domestic production/consumption. China is still very much in favor of trade including BRI/RCEP and it is a feather it's cap versus the US but its growth isn't dependent on it.
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Mar 10, 2023 20:18
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Ardennes let’s say exports halved, What effect does that have have on their internal domestic demand? think about the feed back loops.
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Mar 10, 2023 20:22
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Under the current socioeconomic, political, especially ideological system - how are you going to get BAE to make ammunition they don’t want to?
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Mar 10, 2023 20:38
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Frosted Flake posted:Under the current socioeconomic, political, especially ideological system - how are you going to get BAE to make ammunition they don’t want to? hmm, have they tried giving BAE a whole bunch of money and tax breaks?
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Mar 10, 2023 20:39
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Ardennes let’s say exports halved, What effect does that have have on their internal domestic demand? think about the feed back loops. if chinese exports are halved that means immediate acute shortages and eventual collapse of a bunch of other economies because china is literally the workshop of the world
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Mar 10, 2023 20:49
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Ardennes let’s say exports halved, What effect does that have have on their internal domestic demand? think about the feed back loops. they draw on the social cohesion engendered by achieving their first centenary goal of building a moderately prosperous socialist economy, which just allowed their country to beat covid, and adjust to life without infinite individual and individuated consumer choice?
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Mar 10, 2023 20:54
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like, it should be quite obvious by now that the west needs china to keep exporting far, far more than china needs them to keep importing
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Mar 10, 2023 20:55
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Frosted Flake posted:Under the current socioeconomic, political, especially ideological system - how are you going to get BAE to make ammunition they don’t want to? develop a proprietary polymer in the nosecone that retails for more per capita than printer ink
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Mar 10, 2023 20:57
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Ardennes let’s say exports halved, What effect does that have have on their internal domestic demand? think about the feed back loops. It probably wouldn’t be that significant, you would be talking about 5%-6% (also imports would drop) loss in GDP that would likely be fought with stimulus and import replacement. China produces almost everything it needs at this point or could source through nearby partners. Also if Russia could fight that type of loss as well as it, I don’t think China is going to have an issue. What exactly is going to cause China to collapse here?
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Mar 10, 2023 20:59
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saw this new U.S. army recruitment ad. what's interesting about it is that it seems to take some inspiration from PLA videos with the parade of vehicles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ItEHJc330Q
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Mar 10, 2023 21:11
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Cerebral Bore posted:if chinese exports are halved that means immediate acute shortages and eventual collapse of a bunch of other economies because china is literally the workshop of the world the west moving away from Chinese imports right now. The factories are literally being imported right.
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Mar 10, 2023 21:21
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:saw this new U.S. army recruitment ad. what's interesting about it is that it seems to take some inspiration from PLA videos with the parade of vehicles Lmao
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Mar 10, 2023 21:25
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I hardly ever see US troops on parade. You'd think they would, since that Prussian guy basically set up the whole thing, and there's a lot of Prussian stuff in it, even how they refer to Brigades vs Regiments and so on.
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Mar 10, 2023 21:31
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Bar Ran Dun posted:the west moving away from Chinese imports right now. The factories are literally being imported right. A lot of the manufacturing in Mexico and Vietnam is either done by Chinese companies or using Chinese components. China just produces a ton of everything.
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Mar 10, 2023 21:44
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Frosted Flake posted:I hardly ever see US troops on parade. End of history ate those, too, is my impression. The last federal triumph was for the Gulf War, and the rural Northeast is weird to begin with + where I grew up specifically was apparently the creme de la creme of National Guard both infantry and armored + also where I grew up has a huge complex about being the turning point in the Saratoga campaign, but they usually had a presence including a tank or two and a few M35s to roll to the local parades until around then. In that window between "what do we need this for" and post-9/11 paranoia they just kind of fenced off a parking lot by the high school and left the hardware there to rot, lol. Mandoric has issued a correction as of 21:57 on Mar 10, 2023 |
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Mar 10, 2023 21:55
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