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It's very easy if you just ignore everything after 3060-something. Probably my favorite eras are late star league and Helm Core Renaissance up to but not including clan invasion. A few special toys more than 3025 but not huge tables of them and they tend to not to be "all upside."
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Mar 12, 2023 21:19
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raverrn posted:Hard disagree for a few reasons. Firstly I don't think it's fair to ever call Battletecha beer-and-pretzels game. It's always been a simulationist nightmare, even in 3025 you had to roll for each of your 20 SRM hits individually or remember the difference between a hip, upper leg, lower leg or foot critical, not to mention the unique ways they can stack. If you want to play walking tankbots with friends with the TV on and shoot the poo poo there's a game for that, it's not introtech it's Alpha Strike. Watching a 'Mech fall apart from a specific critical hit is specifically the kind of lowbrow fun that comes from the beer-and-pretzels term I'm probably using incorrectly. Alpha Strike doesn't have that. Why is damage simulation from a few tables the same thing as trying to understand why a human-shaped robot shares a name with some obscure mythical creature from an ancient civilization that doesn't get much exposure in pulp sci-fi? (Yes I know about the HawkWolf and how the opposite effect was a problem too) raverrn posted:Secondly, having a ton of gear available to everyone un-solves the equation in a way that just isn't feasible with simple rules. When everyone has just the basic weapons on hand your design epitomizes slowly and surely towards a Crab or whatever. There's still room for some personal interpretation, for sure, but I can tell you the value of a battlemech build in 3025 way, way more easily when it's just "how many large lasers and heat sinks and what speed does it move at" compared to some of the truly weird Dark Age designs. The Quasimodo has 3 MVSPLs, TSM and a Blue Shield. How does that compare to a Scarecrow mounting a few Clan ERMLs and a Chameleon system? There's a tooooon more playroom and the game is way richer for it. Without addressing how little the new equipment changes the metagame that I think you're talking about, should new content seekers really be audience to market towards? Variety is great for those who enjoy it, but what's the ratio of folks who will spend $$$$ on every splatbook and PDF, compared to those who need the push just to pick up A Game of Armored Combat? I'm also going to assume that you were looking at specifically the bad balance of 3050 Clan weapons (cERLLs/cERPPCs + cLPLs + cLRMs vs everything else) and not 3025 Large Lasers(?) on 5/8/0 'Mechs(? terrain?), but that goes back to the bright side of one of the possible solutions I mentioned in my first post, about nuking everything and starting over--you can re-balance everything for more variety without a long list of equipment options. More (actually all) energy weapons could taper off at longer ranges for example, or perhaps the weird BT contrivance of ballistic weapons having shorter ranges for bigger guns could be reversed. Arquinsiel posted:The problem isn't so much that the additions are funky it's that what the world considers a "beer-and-pretzels wargame" has drastically changed over the last several decades. I'm going to step away from the beer-and-pretzels phrase because I don't think it's a great term either, but could you elaborate on your observations on what the trend is? Do funky additions matter less when BT is presented as wargame that sells on books and not minis? (minis are really happening right now though) Owlbear Camus posted:It's very easy if you just ignore everything after 3060-something. See then, that's the thing--where are the new 3039-3058 products? How would CGL continue to develop the game in that era, aside from the Historical books and scenario PDFs that haven't been all too popular anyways? You can't make more 'Mech designs because the canon setting itself has limited production capability, retconning Every Also-New Gundam into the One Year War doesn't happen here. Sidesaddle Cavalry fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Mar 12, 2023 |
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Mar 12, 2023 22:48
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Which brings me to another issue I think has been holding BT a little bit back in the past couple of decades or so (not counting the entire Unseen fiasco, glad that's over). The problem comes in two parts: I'm sympathetic to "there's too much" but at the end of the day look at the record sheet. It's specifically there to reduce the number of things you actually have to remember. It will be very clearly printed which weapon it is, it's not hard at all to remember that the one with different damages at different ranges is also the one with different bonuses, and DE means half damage to Reflective. I'm not suggesting you have a problem with this, mind, but there's a fairly significant chunk of BT players who seem to think that you need to memorize as much as possible to have a quick or good game, and it's just not at all true. Hit location tables sure, those are gold to have memorized, but you're far better served getting good at looking at and interpreting the weapons and equipment section of a 'Mech than trying to remember every single weapon's stats at all times.
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Mar 12, 2023 22:49
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I do think ilClan is a lot more interesting than basically anything else between like 3060 and 3150, but I also think it is really weird that there are basically no contemporary sourcebooks covering the Succession Wars or the Clan Invasion, the most popular eras of play. There's Tukayyid, which is a pretty specific campaign book that doesn't have availability tables in it, and the now-PDF-only First and Second Succession Wars books and that's it. I'm also struck by how the novels are also clustered by era; there's something like a grand total of 3 or 4 novels set in the Succession Wars, not counting the German ones that have never been translated. It's a big blindspot that the "always moving forward" style of development and focus on the metaplot has.
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Mar 13, 2023 00:16
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The Era Report series were a nice step back like that. I enjoyed the Clan and Civil War era ones a lot.Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:I'm going to step away from the beer-and-pretzels phrase because I don't think it's a great term either, but could you elaborate on your observations on what the trend is? Do funky additions matter less when BT is presented as wargame that sells on books and not minis? (minis are really happening right now though)
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Mar 13, 2023 00:37
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I prefer both Third Succession War and ilClan era, but not for mechanic reasons. No, the real reason I prefer those eras is because those eras actually gives every faction something to do. Most of the other eras have the persistent problem of not really giving half the factions anything to do while whichever Big Name Event was going on. If you liked playing Capellans or FWL, then the Clan Invasion era doesn't really give you a lot to work with because all the action involving the titular Clans is on the other side of the Inner Sphere. Similar issue with the Fedcom Civil War. Sure, there were other conflicts, but the Civil War just sucked so much oxygen out of the room that the other conflicts seemed almost incidental by comparison. Very much the feeling of 'And those other guys were loving off in the background doing their own thing'. The Jihad era meanwhile as a setting is almost entirely brushed past, as the IP was bought by Wizkids who just wanted to get it over and done with so they could do their own Dark Age era instead for the Clix game, and it too suffered from the Oxygen Sucking problem listed above. Sure, there were plenty of conflicts between the various factions, but it quickly became a case of 'The Blakists were the real villains all along', so all those factional conflicts got snuffed out for the No Holds Barred Beatdown against the WoB that was Operation SCOUR.
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Mar 13, 2023 01:24
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GD_American posted:Somebody was reading Arthur C. Clarke's "Superiority" More wargames need friction I feel. Every battle and campaign always unexpected developments and mistakes that often come down to random thing happening that the vast majority of wargames don't count. I had no idea those rules were in place (I've just got the 3025 rules)...but it sounds very complicated to remember everything.
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Mar 13, 2023 01:37
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A lot of the time that sort of friction results in the unit simply not making it to the battlefield at all in reality, but you can simulate it more sensibly with the pre-existing damage rules and variable ammo loads.
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Mar 13, 2023 01:50
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FishFood posted:I do think ilClan is a lot more interesting than basically anything else between like 3060 and 3150, but I also think it is really weird that there are basically no contemporary sourcebooks covering the Succession Wars or the Clan Invasion, the most popular eras of play. There's Tukayyid, which is a pretty specific campaign book that doesn't have availability tables in it, and the now-PDF-only First and Second Succession Wars books and that's it. First Succession War and Second Succession War are both available in print-on-demand from DrivethruRPG. There were eleven novels set in the Succession Wars under FASA, and a handful of novellas and collections of short stories since. The biggest 'problem' with going back and filling that in with more novels is... what do you put there? Major campaigns or events would be meaningful retcons of dubious necessity, small battles or skirmishes or character pieces work just as well in any one of literally three hundred years in either direction.
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Mar 13, 2023 02:31
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Painted up a 3D printed Rampage. I've really been digging this silver-blue-white color scheme. It's super fast to paint up and look rad.  
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Mar 13, 2023 13:02
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I think they should bring back some of the RWR Designs. Not only are they pretty sweet looking, but it would give some Clanners heart attacks to see a Rampage or a Dragoon being fielded.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:50
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Rorahusky posted:I think they should bring back some of the RWR Designs. Not only are they pretty sweet looking, but it would give some Clanners heart attacks to see a Rampage or a Dragoon being fielded. *looks poo poo up on Sarna* drat ol Stef really leaned into the "mad dictator demanding wunderwaffen" thing. the rifleman 3 looks like something I would have cooked up at 15 dicking with mech design rules instead of paying attention in algebra
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Mar 13, 2023 18:37
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The Dragoon is a really great looking design, though. One of my favorites for sure. It's also basically a proto-OmniMech. Wolf's Dragoons should resurrect it just to mock Alaric and the ilClan.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:39
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Strobe posted:I'm sympathetic to "there's too much" but at the end of the day look at the record sheet. It's specifically there to reduce the number of things you actually have to remember. It will be very clearly printed which weapon it is, it's not hard at all to remember that the one with different damages at different ranges is also the one with different bonuses, and DE means half damage to Reflective. Exactly. Our group did beer-and-pretzels games by each drawing from a stack of face-down light mech record sheets. Every pilot was 4/4 and maps were random. Games were fairly quick and sometimes hilarious.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:50
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For the longest time we just rolled random mechs from the assignment tables and shot each other to pieces. Sounds a lot like beer-and-prezels to me. Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Without addressing how little the new equipment changes the metagame that I think you're talking about, should new content seekers really be audience to market towards? Variety is great for those who enjoy it, but what's the ratio of folks who will spend $$$$ on every splatbook and PDF, compared to those who need the push just to pick up A Game of Armored Combat? I have seen the word metagame appearing more in connection to BT and every time I viciously roll my eyes and sigh.
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Mar 13, 2023 20:01
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bad_fmr posted:I have seen the word metagame appearing more in connection to BT and every time I viciously roll my eyes and sigh. So do I. Canon designs have kept the majority of folks gaming "optimal units" generally under control. There's no reason it can't be done again under a new rule set Seriously? A Crab? It's a great zombie medium but it is by no means a game winning choice
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Mar 13, 2023 20:51
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"Metagame" literally just means the choices that you make before you ever reach the table or roll dice. Every single time someone asks "what should I do with the BV I have left for this pick up game coming up?", that's participating in the metagame, regardless of the thoughts or reasons behind your answer. The multi-page chat in this very thread about what units are good at protecting your back lines and how good the Wraith is was all metagame discussion. But roll your eyes and sigh, I guess, since we can't go three loving days in this thread without either implying or stating explicitly that some player(s) or others are doing BattleTech wrong.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:29
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The only bad BattleTech is the BattleTech you don't enjoy arguing about.  But more seriously, as long as people are having fun playing they're not playing BattleTech wrong.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:32
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Strobe posted:"Metagame" literally just means the choices that you make before you ever reach the table or roll dice.
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Mar 13, 2023 21:33
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Arquinsiel posted:Yeah so this is just flat out wrong, and thus the rest of your post is not worth responding to. Maybe throw the word into google? "Metagame, hypergame,[1] or game about the game, is an approach to a game that transcends or operates outside of the prescribed rules of the game, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game." (Thanks to Google and then Wikipedia, in order) Show me the prescribed rules of the game regarding building a force. I'll wait. "How do I respond to the Awesone that moved into the heavy woods hex on my flank " is the game. "What do I bring to counter an Awesome or something like it?" is the metagame. EDIT: Even if you're going to be an rear end and prove my point by insisting that it's about power gamers trying to find the best everything, it's the same loving thing just with built-in contempt for the concept. What units are the best for X, what do I do to play against X, in an endless cycle that's different from "how do I play into Clans with IS in 3050" in name only. Strobe fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 21:45
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Grats on moving the goalposts and showing that you do in fact understand the distinction! Going from "I want to have a unit to protect my snipers" to "my opponant has an Awesome and I want to deal with that" is in fact metagaming, albeit at the local level. Well done you.
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Mar 13, 2023 22:24
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Deciding which unit to bring to protect your snipers intrinsically involves evaluating the units you're considering against what they'll encounter. The fact that you do not know exactly what a future opponent might bring is irrelevant. "It should be fast in case my opponent fields backstabbers", "it should have pulse lasers and be able to jump", "it should have guns with long short ranges so it doesn't have to fully keep up with harrassers to get good shots", these are all things that are based on what you expect to play against. "I like it because it did well for me last game" is still a decision influenced by your opponents' choices that have nothing to do with the game you're about to play! The only way to play that doesnt interact with the metagame at some level is to roll on RATs and throw the resulting forces onto a mapsheet against each other uncritically. There are people that do that! I respect their choice. Leave the sanctimonious bullshit at the door. Strobe fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 22:33
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Strobe posted:Leave the sanctimonious bullshit at the door.
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Mar 13, 2023 23:18
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take it to a trial of grievance
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Mar 13, 2023 23:22
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PoptartsNinja posted:The Dragoon is a really great looking design, though. One of my favorites for sure. If the Dragoons want to be murdered by multiple Clans clamoring for the opportunity... I honestly hope the rate of new BattleMechs slows down for a while. There's just so many out there and it's hard to remember what's what. It's also hard to imagine a society like Clan Wolf that's moved slivers of its population can keep pumping out multiple new designs constantly. It would make sense if some of these new designs were to replace old ones, but I don't get that feeling too often, even if the fiction says that's the case. Too many classic mechs continue to appear alongside new mechs in the fiction. See the Savage Wolf right next to Timber Wolfs all the time in some of the newer novels. In other news, taught 5 students in my board game club how to play alpha strike today. Had several kids asking for my black knight mini. Sometime this week/next week I'm going to do a painting tutorial for kids with their own stuff. 
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Mar 14, 2023 01:17
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I was about to poo poo talk the Savage Wolf but it's actually pretty cool. I was thinking of the Tundra Wolf. I know it sounds like I'm bagging on clix again but I really have nothing against the game, it's a cool idea with a cool setting and I'm glad it hasn't all been thrown out due to grognard whining. I just don't like a lot of the Wizkids designs 
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Mar 14, 2023 04:27
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Catalyst's artists did a pretty good job prettying up the Wizkids designs. I don't think the Clix game designs were bad overall or anything but they suffered from being made to a low cost. I also think they went a little too hard with big canopy cockpits on vehicles which made them look a little too like GI Joe vehicles. But Catalyst giving the designs a makeover with their artists really helped them. IMO the actual low point from Wizkids was the internal art in a few BattleTech sourcebooks. I'm not going to name anything specific because I don't want to be mean or anything but there were a couple of books with really bad art. Like really bad even considering the fact that it was for a tabletop game about giant robots that was on minimal life support.
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Mar 14, 2023 04:42
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If we 've played the intro scenarios to Alpha Strike in the boxset and want to try upscaling to a more "properly" scaled game, how many points would you recommend?
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Mar 14, 2023 05:22
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Atlas Hugged posted:If we 've played the intro scenarios to Alpha Strike in the boxset and want to try upscaling to a more "properly" scaled game, how many points would you recommend? I'm a big fan of anything in the 400-500 range. That lets you comfortably take a company (or binary) that is big/skilled/high-tech (pick 2) and still have to make meaningful choices about what units you bring. EDIT: and the game will only take a couple hours. Strobe fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 05:31
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BattleMaster posted:Catalyst's artists did a pretty good job prettying up the Wizkids designs. I don't think the Clix game designs were bad overall or anything but they suffered from being made to a low cost. I also think they went a little too hard with big canopy cockpits on vehicles which made them look a little too like GI Joe vehicles. But Catalyst giving the designs a makeover with their artists really helped them. I'll name something specific, Handbook: House Marik What the gently caress was that
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Mar 14, 2023 05:32
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Atlas Hugged posted:If we 've played the intro scenarios to Alpha Strike in the boxset and want to try upscaling to a more "properly" scaled game, how many points would you recommend? 375 can get you up to 11 mechs with a few heavy hitters thrown in.
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Mar 14, 2023 13:53
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Alpha Strike is much more fun, I have found, with the use of objectives; Unless your opponent is using a pair of Ion Sparrows (Sprint speed, twenty inches) which can each rush an objective each turn and when you brought a Lance of Heavies and a Lance of mediums, so when you arrive to shoot at him, he has already scored 60% of the points needed to win I still had fun. On a similar note, the Jade Phoenix is an absolute loving beast
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Mar 14, 2023 15:11
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Alpha Strike is much more fun, I have found, with the use of objectives; Oh definitely. I’ve got the mission set from Southern Assault II, and when I play with my friend we pull one from there. 5 missions total (not including deathmatch, which we also played there), lots of secondary objectives for each one. I actually had a game where I lost the primary objective but cleaned up so thoroughly on secondaries that I actually managed to win it. e: they’re back at the house right now, but I can put them up later on if anyone is interested.
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Mar 14, 2023 15:24
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General Battuta posted:I was about to poo poo talk the Savage Wolf but it's actually pretty cool. I was thinking of the Tundra Wolf. I will say even as a kid I always thought the Tundra Wolf and Jupiter were really goofy with these huge beefy arms and torsos, and tiny metallic pelvises that looked like they'd crumble under all that weight. They were still beasts of BattleMechs in the game though. Icon of Sin posted:
Once the kids get more comfortable and can play some 1 v1 games all on their own, I'll have to move on and try objectives with the club. Big problem is most of the kids can't stay after school, so they're got their hour lunch, IF they get there on time. Still, they're having fun. Alpha Strike question: In order to Death From Above, your mech HAS TO be able to sit with its hex touching the target hex right? So I can't DFA a mech on top of a building if there's only space for one mech there yes? Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 16:42
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raverrn posted:Hard disagree for a few reasons. Firstly I don't think it's fair to ever call Battletecha beer-and-pretzels game. It's always been a simulationist nightmare, even in 3025 you had to roll for each of your 20 SRM hits individually or remember the difference between a hip, upper leg, lower leg or foot critical, not to mention the unique ways they can stack. If you want to play walking tankbots with friends with the TV on and shoot the poo poo there's a game for that, it's not introtech it's Alpha Strike. if you play with a tabletop assistant such as Flechs Sheets it's absolutely beer and pretzels tv on material. you barely even have to know the rules, it's great. plus you still get to keep the simulation elements without having to go to alpha strike levels. best of both worlds, game is fast and not a headache but still authentic battletech. i would never play or recommend anyone play without some digital assist
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Mar 14, 2023 17:16
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Hopefully more of the Total Warfare equipment gets supported by the automation stuff soon, that's the part that lets you forget most of the rules except for movement costs for terrain
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Mar 14, 2023 18:28
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BattleMaster posted:Sneede's Rifleman is used as the Strat Ops frankenmech example and Sarna has a description on the Rifleman page. No official sheet as far as I've seen though. By the way, that came out over this past weekend: https://bg.battletech.com/download/ForcePack%20Record%20Sheets%20Snords%20Irregulars.pdf 
Sidesaddle Cavalry fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 8, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 19:14
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two heads are better than one
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Mar 14, 2023 19:23
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:By the way, that came out over this past weekend: https://bg.battletech.com/download/ForcePack%20Record%20Sheets%20Snords%20Irregulars.pdf Looks like they built it as a standard 60 ton mech instead of a frankenmech. Which doesn't change very much gameplay wise, I think, but it a little disappointing. The art is really good though, and I like the Clantech upgrade.
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Mar 14, 2023 19:42
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Yeah they've just changed the armour on the side torso and not bothered with the different structure at all. Oh well 
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Mar 14, 2023 19:48
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