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If Londo was the head honcho at the time, does it make a difference? She was there, and he didn't know. Of course this a commentary on Centauri's ruling culture, but still, G'kar was right to be upset about it.
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Mar 14, 2023 20:14
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Planet formation and evolution are slow, but technological development can be fast. It took about 10,000 years for humans to get from early writing to building (lovely by sci-fi standards) spaceships, which is nothing in cosmic time. If the Vorlons evolved a million years earlier than us (0.02% of the age of the earth), that's basically at the same time as us on the timescale of the universe, but more than enough time to explore the galaxy (especially since in the B5 universe FTL travel is possible) and develop technology to godlike levels. CainFortea posted:I think it is a slight but important distinction for his character that when he tells Mr Morden what he wants, he frames it in positive changes for his people. Not in negative changes in everyone else. There's plenty of other supremacists who's driving goal is framed entirely on hurting people they view as lesser. When first watched I noticed the asymmetry in Londo and G'Kar's responses to Morden, although what I picked up on was that G'Kar expressed a finite ambition ("beat the Centauri, done") whereas Londo's goals will never be satisfied (there's always more galaxy to conquer). Londo's vision sounds more positive but it's also more dangerous.
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Mar 14, 2023 20:44
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sebmojo posted:Just like his planet he's young scrappy and hungry and he's not throwing away his shot Gonna get a seat on the Kha'ri council Prob'ly shouldn't boast, but most'll try to discount 'till He shows them he's got both strength of arms and strong planning He's gotta slaughter just to be heard Of G'Quan's word he's understanding He's a diamond in the rough, an unripe piece of spoo Helpin' his people too, his stage presence unupstageable Now fifty-five, but he's still in his prime Other races won't give him a dime, he spends time Making new deals, making some new allies He's got to become wise, or you'll never see the Narns rise Dealing with guns and spies They grow what they know and they play the Great Game But now it's getting late so let me spell out the name He's with the N A R N R E G Let me add the I M E A government that runs independently Meanwhile Centauri shittin' on them endlessly Even now they demean them relentlessly G'kar will cut their hair with unsightly glee He'll kill them all to keep his descendants free He'll stare them in the face and he'll never flee You'll see (He says parenthetically) For enslaving his people he'll take a fee He will lay down his life if it keeps them free Eventually, you'll see what he can be And he is not throwing away His shot (his shot) He is not throwing away His shot (his shot) Hey, yo, he's just like my country He's young, scrappy and hungry And he's not throwing away his shot And he's not throwing away his shot
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Mar 14, 2023 20:54
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The thing about theorizing about alien races and the average amount of time it would take species to develop and invent interstellar travel is that you're working with a bunch of numbers that you don't actually know including some things that we don't even really have much reason to think are even possible. One of the ideas with the first races seems to be that some laws of physics might not apply all the way back then. It's all mysterious. Rappaport posted:If Londo was the head honcho at the time, does it make a difference? She was there, and he didn't know. The entire rest of that episode is all about how Londo is in the dark and being cut out of the loop of whatever the hell is happening on Centauri Prime. Naturally, after they get back to Babylon 5, G'kar takes that as a reason why the station command should shut Londo out of the loop about the fact that they have reason to think that a faction of the Centauri is going behind his back to attack spaceships.
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Mar 14, 2023 21:00
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Qwertycoatl posted:If the Vorlons evolved a million years earlier than us (0.02% of the age of the earth), that's basically at the same time as us on the timescale of the universe, but more than enough time to explore the galaxy (especially since in the B5 universe FTL travel is possible) and develop technology to godlike levels. The Vorlons also had oversight from Lorien's people, which presumably helped them to kickstart their technological apotheosis.
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Mar 14, 2023 21:21
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idonotlikepeas posted:Gonna get a seat on the Kha'ri council Amazing  (the reference in case anyone doesn't know)
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Mar 14, 2023 21:53
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Issaries posted:My understanding of the first ones was that they are technology based too, including their immortality. From The Long Night (Script Book): IVANOVA: Okay, let's assume out of all the universe you were the first living being to achieve sentience a million years ago. At that point, you're doing good to invent fire or the wheel. You couldn't come up with science, technology, find a serum for immortality, all in one lifetime. LORIEN: It wasn't necessary. As the others of my race came along, yes, we learned, evolved over centuries. But we were born naturally immortal. IVANOVA: Impossible. Everything dies. LORIEN: Yes... now. I think the universe began to realize that nothing is gained by immortality. If you're petty and stupid, you will be petty and stupid forever. At first we were kept in balance by birthrate... few of us were ever born, less than a handful each year. Then, I think, the universe decided that to appreciate life, for there to be change and growth, life had to be short. So the generations that followed us grew old, infirm, died. But those of us who were first went on. So I amend my original suggestion. The B5 universe appears potentially sentient and likely produced life and sentience out of itself deliberately, at least if Lorien is to be believed (not that he's the only character to express this claim about the universe trying to understand itself). There's no need of a direct First One mechanism and no reason to believe that a universe actively attempting to produce life with specific characteristics wouldn't be doing so on a greatly accelerated timeline when compared with an inert universe. Narsham fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Mar 14, 2023 |
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Mar 14, 2023 23:43
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Poldarn posted:Lol, is this Ultimate Force? Or did another show do this? Lmfao, I was thinking of Teachers.
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Mar 14, 2023 23:52
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https://twitter.com/greysectorpod/status/1635780992811290624?s=46&t=NFErRWv0BS_srQ6-QEaKwQ
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Mar 15, 2023 02:41
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Doesn't Garibaldi successfully re-unite a family or something when he was off being brain-washed and being a private dick instead of a security officer?
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Mar 15, 2023 10:57
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Rappaport posted:Doesn't Garibaldi successfully re-unite a family or something when he was off being brain-washed and being a private dick instead of a security officer? And help Scott Adams!
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Mar 16, 2023 01:45
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Not gonna lie: Garibaldi is generating #MeToo incidents across Babylon 5. I don't mind his character overall but his interactions with women are....not great. Can't wait till this newbie gets to some of Dr. Franklin's plotlines.
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Mar 16, 2023 02:44
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I wonder if any of the posters who go from young to elder ever go back and read what we say about them when they get to this thread. 
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Mar 16, 2023 02:47
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CainFortea posted:I wonder if any of the posters who go from young to elder ever go back and read what we say about them when they get to this thread. At least one person came here after completing their watch but I don't think they stuck around long.
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Mar 16, 2023 03:56
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It's easy to miss, but there's such a weird swap between Garibaldi and Ivanova after the first season since JMS decided that Sheridan would be an old friend of Ivanova like how Garibaldi was an old friend of Sinclair, and Garibaldi became the difficult, distrustful subordinate like how Ivanova was in the first season. It really suits him so well that it's hard to imagine what it would've been like if they hadn't flipped their dynamic.
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Mar 16, 2023 04:54
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Being brainwashed by Bester would have been even tougher on her.
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Mar 16, 2023 04:56
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Midjack posted:At least one person came here after completing their watch but I don't think they stuck around long. Hello there, made my start in the blind watch thread and I'm still here. 
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Mar 16, 2023 05:17
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's easy to miss, but there's such a weird swap between Garibaldi and Ivanova after the first season since JMS decided that Sheridan would be an old friend of Ivanova like how Garibaldi was an old friend of Sinclair, and Garibaldi became the difficult, distrustful subordinate like how Ivanova was in the first season. It really suits him so well that it's hard to imagine what it would've been like if they hadn't flipped their dynamic. Makes a lot of sense too, since it'd be really weird if the same character was old best buddies with both commanders.
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Mar 16, 2023 05:36
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's easy to miss, but there's such a weird swap between Garibaldi and Ivanova after the first season since JMS decided that Sheridan would be an old friend of Ivanova like how Garibaldi was an old friend of Sinclair, and Garibaldi became the difficult, distrustful subordinate like how Ivanova was in the first season. It really suits him so well that it's hard to imagine what it would've been like if they hadn't flipped their dynamic. Part of why it works so well is that, in S1, Garibaldi and Ivanova don't trust each other very much. They grow closer and more trusting, and so you can see Garibaldi's initial suspicion and lack of trust from Ivanova's position as friend(ly) to both. I'm thinking of the scene when Garibaldi talks about digging into Sheridan's record, and Ivanova gives a scandalized "Michael!"
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Mar 16, 2023 05:43
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Powered Descent posted:Hello there, made my start in the blind watch thread and I'm still here. I remembered your avatar wrong! 
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Mar 16, 2023 05:49
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From the blind watch thread:Tom Guycot posted:Up to s2e9, boy are they still doing a great, just great job, of laying in larger pieces and story while maintaining an episodic format. Its such a stark change of pace from watching something sci fi like... star trek discovery or something where you can't even remember what episode is which, they all blend together, and you will never say to yourself "i feel like rewatching episode xyz". 
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Mar 16, 2023 07:50
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Aww hell yeah
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Mar 16, 2023 08:29
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ultrafilter posted:Can't wait till this newbie gets to some of Dr. Franklin's plotlines. The "banging his patient five minutes after she got out of cryogenic suspension, plus she was newly widowed" plot line was in S1 and he already got to it.
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Mar 16, 2023 11:10
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Jedit posted:The "banging his patient five minutes after she got out of cryogenic suspension, plus she was newly widowed" plot line was in S1 and he already got to it. That's The Long Dark in S2 vvv Their most recent post is Mind War, you're thinking of a different newbie MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 13:05
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MrL_JaKiri posted:That's The Long Dark in S2 There was more than one?  Joking aside: it was early enough in S2 that the poster in question had reached it already.
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Mar 16, 2023 13:13
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Lemniscate Blue posted:From the blind watch thread: I do feel bit puzzled at what in particular turned that poster against the Centauri, since I don't think the show had gotten into the worse aspects of what the Centauri did to Narn by that point. I guess you can imagine what possible offenses could've been involved in colonization, but I don't think the show had really illustrated any of it at this point. I think there's only that time when Londo was gonna make a sacred Narn plant into a cocktail. And I don't think I can ask for clarification in the blind watch thread without sparking off an argument with people bringing in things that the show says later.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:I do feel bit puzzled at what in particular turned that poster against the Centauri, since I don't think the show had gotten into the worse aspects of what the Centauri did to Narn by that point. I guess you can imagine what possible offenses could've been involved in colonization, but I don't think the show had really illustrated any of it at this point. I think there's only that time when Londo was gonna make a sacred Narn plant into a cocktail. I think it's just 2023 sensibilities are much more attuned to the Narn narrative of having been victims of a colonialist oppressor, and so on and so forth.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:55
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I think it's also that we've had more time with the media depicting people as bad as the centauri as mustache twirlers. If TV shows or Movies try to play with the concept, they'll add one likeable and charismatic mustache twirler who maybe has a "sympathetic" reason for being a mustache twirler. The centauri, with like 1 very big exception, are never that. They're shitheads, yes, but they're not out there putting babies on spikes for shits and giggles.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:03
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Well, except for Vir's wife and Cartagia. The show also throws in a number of Narn mustache-twirlers early on, but I guess most of them die in the war. I guess the most sinister Narn is the one who decided to have G'kar killed after his own death.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:I guess the most sinister Narn is the one who decided to have G'kar killed after his own death. To be fair, G'kar being so paranoid was p funny 
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Mar 16, 2023 17:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:Well, except for Vir's wife and Cartagia. The show does a pretty okay job in Season 1 of setting up G'kar to be the villain really. It's part of why the long slow transition in S2 is so effective, as Londo executes his heel turn, and G'kar just gets ever more desperate until he hits bottom, picks himself up, and becomes the moral compass of the whole drat show.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:45
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I think the Centauri come across as sympathetic because we're shown that the mustache-twirling villains are so rare. Everyone is horrified of Cartagia, even the other Centauri. It makes Londo--and through him, the Centauri--appear less villainous because they're so opposed to that outright, over-the-top villainy.
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Mar 16, 2023 18:05
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Chevy Slyme posted:I think it's just 2023 sensibilities are much more attuned to the Narn narrative of having been victims of a colonialist oppressor, and so on and so forth. Yeah it's this. The show puts some effort into the narn being dicks and the centauri being put upon but I think a modern viewer puts less weight on that.
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Mar 16, 2023 19:04
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ConfusedUs posted:I think the Centauri come across as sympathetic because we're shown that the mustache-twirling villains are so rare. Everyone is horrified of Cartagia, even the other Centauri. It makes Londo--and through him, the Centauri--appear less villainous because they're so opposed to that outright, over-the-top villainy. I kinda doubt how rare the mustache villains are among the centauri considering that Vir's wife kills narns for sport and everyone shrugs their shoulders about it. Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 19:22
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ConfusedUs posted:I think the Centauri come across as sympathetic because we're shown that the mustache-twirling villains are so rare. Everyone is horrified of Cartagia, even the other Centauri. It makes Londo--and through him, the Centauri--appear less villainous because they're so opposed to that outright, over-the-top villainy. They're not, though. As Alhazred pointed out, nobody is rushing to arrest Lyndisty for killing Narns. Instead, like any other ethno-nationalist manifest destiny assholes they think nothing of it because Narns are the enemy, a conquered people who must be kept underfoot so they don't get out of line again. They only care about what Cartagia is doing because he's doing it to them. No; the sympathy for the Centauri was built through Londo before the major outbreak of war. He's an unhappy relic of a fading civilisation, hiding his grief and bitterness from everyone including himself with a party animal lifestyle. He's the most likeable and most relatable of the alien ambassadors, and we want him to be happy. It's only when his chance comes that we realise that it's a zero sum game - for Londo to get what he thinks will make him happy, someone else has to suffer. Londo realises it as well. We see him realise it, and we hope that he will turn back. We even expect it to some degree, because we like Londo and because drat it, that's how TV worked in the 1990s. That's what makes him a great tragic figure; he has the chance to turn back, he knows that he should, but he keeps going forward to damnation because he values his people more than his soul.
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Mar 16, 2023 20:10
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sebmojo posted:Yeah it's this. The show puts some effort into the narn being dicks and the centauri being put upon but I think a modern viewer puts less weight on that. Yeah. Is this a cheer-leading post? I'm sorry if it is. The show first wants to make you hate the Narn, because early G'kar is a dick, and then there's the war and you've grown to like Londo, but then there he is doing war crimes, and what are you supposed to think about that? It's a very good story-telling method in a teevee show, in my opinion. Of course it is made much funnier later on when G'kar and Londo sort of make up, and G'kar becomes his body guard, but early on the show has slightly grander themes it tries to portray. And the narrative around the Narn being brutalized is a bit different viewing now than what it was in the 90's for a white kid. The show does make it very explicit, even without the planetary bombardment, how the Centauri are absolute monsters. And that is a plot point, because by some weird twist Cartagia becomes Emperor and Londo and Vir have to... do something about it.
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Mar 16, 2023 20:59
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Jedit posted:No; the sympathy for the Centauri was built through Londo before the major outbreak of war. He's an unhappy relic of a fading civilisation, hiding his grief and bitterness from everyone including himself with a party animal lifestyle. He's the most likeable and most relatable of the alien ambassadors, and we want him to be happy. JMS talked about the show as a whole being, in part, a response to the Me Generation, an exploration of self sacrifice in favor of something larger than yourself. Londo, even or especially as an antagonist, is still embodying that ethos. Jedit posted:It's only when his chance comes that we realise that it's a zero sum game - for Londo to get what he thinks will make him happy, someone else has to suffer.
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Mar 16, 2023 21:44
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before you embark on a journey to reclaim your people's rightful place in the galaxy, dig two graves
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Mar 16, 2023 22:22
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ozmunkeh posted:before you embark on a journey to reclaim your people's rightful place in the galaxy, dig two billion graves ftfy
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Mar 16, 2023 22:44
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Have the newbies met Mr morden yet? Is he s1?
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Mar 16, 2023 22:47
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