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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Yeah, the AI is still poo poo (though, I think, modestly improved over vanilla), but if you're new to the game it might be balanced out by you having to figure out everything yourself also, and once you get a feel for it, if you want the AI to challenge you, you can just raise the difficulty to give it advantages. So I like the fact that it is boardgamey and the AI plays to win, but honestly...I do wish there was a toggle for like a "roleplay" mode where the civs more closely cleave to the image of their leaders and a "strategy" mode where the game drops the pretense of roleplay in the AI's decision making.
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Feb 21, 2023 03:57
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I don't play Civ on the high difficulty levels for the thrill of competitive play. I play it on lower to mid difficulties because I want a slightly more chill map painting experience with a degree of emergent interactive story to impose some limited constraints and push me to be creative. I'd much rather AIs that are more "roleplaying".
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Feb 21, 2023 20:40
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I was reading VIDEO GAME JOURNALISM and the article said that one of Sid Meier's philosophies for sequels was to make it one third familiar, one third innovated/improved, and one third brand new. I'm not saying that's definitely been the philosophy through VI, but to me it explains a lot.
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Feb 21, 2023 22:12
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I find that after a while, every Deity game regardless of my leader becomes "Survive the early onslaught, then effortlessly cruise to victory because the AI can't manage its economy." I still enjoy playing online with my friends, though. Civ V had a similar repetitiveness problem where the optimal strategy for any leader and map type was always Tradition into Rationalism.
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Feb 26, 2023 09:54
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I think the AI is the real core issue they need to solve, and that’s true whether or not the AI is designed to roleplay or play like a human opponent. An AI role playing as a tall builder civ needs to be able to make strong cities, and an AI role playing as a militaristic conquered needs to be able to execute military campaigns competently. An AI playing like a human opponent needs both. I know flashy new systems are the things that excite players in first looks but “can we make the AI good at using this system” should be a core design consideration before any feature actually gets the green light. The season pass was a particularly egregious example; each new feature that got added was significantly worse than the one before in terms of the AI’s ability to use it, to the point where the monopoly mechanic in the last one might as well have been a cheat code for how much it gave players an advantage due to the AI’s utter inability to understand it. I’d rather have Civ 7 be a simpler game the AI is actually competent at vs some insanely feature heavy mess that is full of stuff the AI only pretends to use.
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Feb 26, 2023 12:19
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There are mods on PC that help out the AI keep up, like the combination of Real Strategy + Late Game AI, but of course there's only so much mods can do (and also the reduction of the AI's focus on religion makes winning with religion much easier with those mods from my experience). You still basically have to avoid abusing the AI's massive weakness in making trades since that part seems outside the scope of mods. Also I could swear AIs stopped participating in Aid requests entirely at some point even though they used to at least pretend to care about them? I'm not 100% if that's on mods but I feel like I saw it even in unmodded games, they're just free diplomatic win points now.
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Feb 26, 2023 15:13
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Reveilled posted:I think the AI is the real core issue they need to solve, and that’s true whether or not the AI is designed to roleplay or play like a human opponent. An AI role playing as a tall builder civ needs to be able to make strong cities, and an AI role playing as a militaristic conquered needs to be able to execute military campaigns competently. An AI playing like a human opponent needs both. I agree with that, but the worst about Civ 6 AI is that it ain't just bad at the hard, complex, systems (like 1UPT tactics and districts placement), it's awful at everything It can't do basic diplomacy in a way that makes a lick of sense (either role-playing or for win), it won't develop the tiles even with workers wasting around, it is dumb even at things like choosing units (building lots of carriers without planes to carry, for ex) It's completely dumb at just everything. The only way for it to pose a challenge is heaving those absurd starting bonuses. But that makes early game this kind of extreme puzzle/survival game after which you either already won or should restart Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 26, 2023 |
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Feb 26, 2023 15:22
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Elias_Maluco posted:I agree with that, but the worst about Civ 6 AI is that it ain't just bad at the hard, complex, systems (like 1UPT tactics and districts placement), it's awful at everything one time I was playing on continents and I can't remember what patch this was on but I arrived at the last continent and Hungary had taken over most of the continent but had very little going on as far as yields because it had built forts on nearly every tile of its territory just honestly have no idea how that happened and it's what I think of when I think about how bad the AI is sometimes
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Feb 26, 2023 16:14
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I feel like building forts to the exclusion of everything else could easily be right out of real history
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Feb 26, 2023 16:27
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I remember for Civ V, I made a flowchart that was capable of beating the AI on Emperor. Like, "If you don't have a Scout, build a Scout. If you don't have a Monument, build a Monument," etc. I feel like they need to have humans figure out the best strategy, and then tell the AIs what to do, rather than having the AI try to deduce everything from first principles.
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Feb 26, 2023 20:34
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homullus posted:each space is a puzzle piece shape, natural wonders are the weird ones shaped like a whale or a trebuchet or whatever My mom has a bunch of these nice wooden puzzles where a lot of the prices are shaped like something thematic from the puzzle art. I can dig it
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Feb 26, 2023 20:44
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I had the first actually competitive game against the AI I've had in quite some time. It required me taking a weak leader (Yu Zetian), having the restraint to not eat my neighbours when they declared war on me, going for a science victory (which the AI prioritizes), and of course having them have all the advantages that a higher difficulty provides. It was 'come from behind' in the sense that I was like the 5th of 8 civs to get a rocket into space, but I caught up real fast thanks to all my spies stealing boosts and got my spacecraft to the exoplanet before anyone else launched theirs. Which may have been in part because of all the spaceport pillaging I did.
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Feb 27, 2023 06:13
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Albino Squirrel posted:I had the first actually competitive game against the AI I've had in quite some time. It required me taking a weak leader (Yu Zetian), having the restraint to not eat my neighbours when they declared war on me, going for a science victory (which the AI prioritizes), and of course having them have all the advantages that a higher difficulty provides. Ah The applied science victory
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Mar 1, 2023 05:45
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Adenoid Dan posted:Activating Ea-Nasir makes you retain grievances against other civs longer. Other way around, they retain grievances against you but you get double output from copper mines from selling low grade ore
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Mar 2, 2023 20:01
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sullat posted:Other way around, they retain grievances against you but you get double output from copper mines from selling low grade ore Ahh yes that's better.
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Mar 2, 2023 21:06
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I was thinking about how the early part of the game is my favorite, and has been for every iteration since the first: clearing the fog of war, finding huts with stuff in them, finding favorable groupings of terrain for cities. It occurred to me that a game could make the science/research process like that for the whole game. Clearing the fog of ignorance, finding eurekas with stuff in them, finding favorable intersections of topics for further investigation.
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Mar 11, 2023 06:33
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homullus posted:I was thinking about how the early part of the game is my favorite, and has been for every iteration since the first: clearing the fog of war, finding huts with stuff in them, finding favorable groupings of terrain for cities. It occurred to me that a game could make the science/research process like that for the whole game. Clearing the fog of ignorance, finding eurekas with stuff in them, finding favorable intersections of topics for further investigation. This is why I always play with Tech And Civic Shuffle on. I take a different path of development every time, depending on what eurekas and Great Scientists I get.
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Mar 11, 2023 08:28
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Chamale posted:This is why I always play with Tech And Civic Shuffle on. I take a different path of development every time, depending on what eurekas and Great Scientists I get. I always play with these on too, but I will say that it loving sucks when the trees have insane bottlenecks and/or lots of dead-end techs and civics. Neither one happens all the time, but they happen often enough to be pretty annoying.
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Mar 11, 2023 15:12
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homullus posted:I was thinking about how the early part of the game is my favorite, and has been for every iteration since the first: clearing the fog of war, finding huts with stuff in them, finding favorable groupings of terrain for cities. It occurred to me that a game could make the science/research process like that for the whole game. Clearing the fog of ignorance, finding eurekas with stuff in them, finding favorable intersections of topics for further investigation. Are you thinking of some kind of metaphysical boardgame layered on top of the main game? Where you actually move units and stuff like that to discover science to use in the main board?
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Mar 11, 2023 21:41
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*moves research assistant onto shoulder of giant, revealing Atomic Theory in the distance*
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Mar 12, 2023 14:31
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I've long held onto an idea that I would love to see in Civ but would probably make for a crap game. Thing is I kinda got bored with the "one tech at a time and everyone works on it" mechanic. I wanna see something a bit more complex and it kinda works like this: all available techs are researched at the same time and the beakers that contribute to each one differ. For example maybe a worked coastal tile contributes 1 beaker per turn to Sailing. Five such tiles contribute 5 beakers, so there's a way to expedite it if you want (so it's not completely passive). Encounter a boat, that's another few beakers. Trade with a civ that has Sailing already, that's a whole load more beakers, etc. I guess it's taking the "eureka" mechanic to the extreme. I dunno. I'd like to see it tried.
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Mar 12, 2023 14:40
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I love the adversarial communal teching in Terra Invicta, but p much impossible to extract that to Civ
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Mar 12, 2023 17:29
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Goa Tse-tung posted:I love the adversarial communal teching in Terra Invicta, but p much impossible to extract that to Civ Is that the board game where you want to build next to other people, but doing so helps them so gently caress that, but building solo leaves you in last? Cuz I played that once and did terribly, it went against all my selfish principles.
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Mar 12, 2023 22:23
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No, Terra Invicta is the GSG about being invaded by aliens.
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Mar 12, 2023 22:50
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Microplastics posted:I've long held onto an idea that I would love to see in Civ but would probably make for a crap game. Thing is I kinda got bored with the "one tech at a time and everyone works on it" mechanic. I wanna see something a bit more complex and it kinda works like this: all available techs are researched at the same time and the beakers that contribute to each one differ. For example maybe a worked coastal tile contributes 1 beaker per turn to Sailing. Five such tiles contribute 5 beakers, so there's a way to expedite it if you want (so it's not completely passive). Encounter a boat, that's another few beakers. Trade with a civ that has Sailing already, that's a whole load more beakers, etc. Sounds like micromanagement hell, but I do like the idea of brainstorming new ways of representing science research. The eureka system is brilliant and a huge gamechanger. On the whole I think I prefer Humankind, but Civ has a Eureka system and Humankind doesn't. And lately I've been thinking about Humankind but actually playing Civ 6, because my friend I play with doesn't own Humankind.
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Mar 12, 2023 23:24
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Serephina posted:Is that the board game where you want to build next to other people, but doing so helps them so gently caress that, but building solo leaves you in last? Cuz I played that once and did terribly, it went against all my selfish principles. Okay but now I am super curious what this actually is.
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Mar 13, 2023 00:24
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:Okay but now I am super curious what this actually is. Terra Mystica, apparently.
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Mar 13, 2023 00:27
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The Human Crouton posted:Are you thinking of some kind of metaphysical boardgame layered on top of the main game? Where you actually move units and stuff like that to discover science to use in the main board? yeah, but simpler. I don't want to double the number of units I have to move in every era
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Mar 13, 2023 05:15
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I've spent a lot of time trying to come up with interesting board game implementations of Civ-style gameplay but inevitably I just end up reminding myself that Through the Ages exists and already does that to near perfection.
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Mar 13, 2023 05:34
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There's also the latest Civ board game  https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/233247/civilization-new-dawn
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Mar 13, 2023 06:01
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Serephina posted:Is that the board game where you want to build next to other people, but doing so helps them so gently caress that, but building solo leaves you in last? Cuz I played that once and did terribly, it went against all my selfish principles. no, it's communal in the sense there are two research slots, and every faction gets the tech if it finishes and adversarial in the sense that only the biggest contributor of that finished slots gets to pick the next tech the very cool emergent gameplay comes from the fact that the Aliens have at least two friendly factions...
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Mar 13, 2023 08:00
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Microplastics posted:I've long held onto an idea that I would love to see in Civ but would probably make for a crap game. Thing is I kinda got bored with the "one tech at a time and everyone works on it" mechanic. I wanna see something a bit more complex and it kinda works like this: all available techs are researched at the same time and the beakers that contribute to each one differ. For example maybe a worked coastal tile contributes 1 beaker per turn to Sailing. Five such tiles contribute 5 beakers, so there's a way to expedite it if you want (so it's not completely passive). Encounter a boat, that's another few beakers. Trade with a civ that has Sailing already, that's a whole load more beakers, etc. I like this idea of beakers coming from sources in addition to libraries and other beaker-spitting buildings. Maybe multiple mini-eurekas per tech; or (e.g.) lighthouses could provide bonus beakers but only while "sea" techs are being researched..... A change to the tech race I'd like to see would be the addition of big bonuses to whoever discovers each tech first- but, techs get cheaper fast for each of your neighbors/trade partners/co-religionists who have that tech. I feel this would offer a good mix of incentives for beelining critical techs, while also allowing the runners-up to catch up a bit. (And open borders / shared trade routes would have big implications for the spread of technology.) Goa Tse-tung posted:no, it's communal in the sense there are two research slots, and every faction gets the tech if it finishes Oh, that sounds very nifty.
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Mar 13, 2023 08:43
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I've always had in my mind that the Big Thing Civilization needs is more map granularity. Septuple (or more!) the amount of hexes on the map, make cities and features take up multiple tiles, and make units take up a single tile but have much higher movement to compensate. Boom, you can fit more units in a tile, congestion becomes much less of a thing, and you can give units or defensive tiles a wider zone of control to keep chokepoints in the game. Maybe even have both units and cities grow bigger as tech progresses, so you can literally watch the world grow smaller as you enter the navigation or information eras, but that'd be less smooth to implement.
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Mar 13, 2023 10:29
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:make cities and features take up multiple tiles, and make units take up a single tile but have much higher movement to compensate. you could check out Old World, it has that (although with "normal" size maps) although it skips your last idea by never going into modern times
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Mar 13, 2023 12:23
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Serephina posted:Terra Mystica, apparently. Slight derail: Terra Mystica the board game is good, but the author also made Gaia Project which has a lot of the same core concepts but more improved gameplay in general; a lot of my board gaming friends dropped Terra Mystica for Gaia Project as “same game but better”
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Mar 13, 2023 14:03
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I've always had in my mind that the Big Thing Civilization needs is more map granularity. Septuple (or more!) the amount of hexes on the map, make cities and features take up multiple tiles, and make units take up a single tile but have much higher movement to compensate. Boom, you can fit more units in a tile, congestion becomes much less of a thing, and you can give units or defensive tiles a wider zone of control to keep chokepoints in the game. This would be great. Also I'd love to see the CB system WAY expanded on, and make it less so that if you ever declare war the entire world hates you. Honestly just look at how EU4 does cbs/diplomacy and copy a lot of that. I want to be able to have a proper limited war that the entire world doesn't hate my guts over. It'd give much more of a motivation to go to war if your plan wasn't just to do a domination victory. As I think the game ruts you way too strongly into whatever your victory type is, with no incentive to do anything beyond that.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:02
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I've always had in my mind that the Big Thing Civilization needs is more map granularity. Septuple (or more!) the amount of hexes on the map, make cities and features take up multiple tiles, and make units take up a single tile but have much higher movement to compensate. Boom, you can fit more units in a tile, congestion becomes much less of a thing, and you can give units or defensive tiles a wider zone of control to keep chokepoints in the game. The problem is more computing power to manage those hexes. I'm in agreement though. More hexes would open up things like navigable rivers, and armies meeting in the fields instead of every battle being a siege, units moving at era appropriate speeds on the map. We just don't have the technology to have a hex-based, civ-style game do this yet.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:22
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Looking at the latest leader batch today, am I misunderstanding Sejong's ability somehow because it feels like it barely does anything?quote:Upon completing the first technology from a new era, receives Culture equal to double the current Science output per turn.
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Mar 15, 2023 10:56
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Kanfy posted:Looking at the latest leader batch today, am I misunderstanding Sejong's ability somehow because it feels like it barely does anything? You might have a lot more science/turn that=n culture/turn? I'm grasping at straws here.
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Mar 15, 2023 11:02
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Serephina posted:You might have a lot more science/turn that=n culture/turn? I'm grasping at straws here. Sure, it's Korea, but still like, at first glance it doesn't feel like it adds up to much at all over the course of a game unless you're at levels of science where you probably don't care about the occasional civic tree bonus all that much anyway. I guess you could run Campus Research Grants for a turn in every city to increase it or something? Since it's from per-turn Science I assume you can't Charles Darwin your way through multiple civics either. These are the other two, incidentally. Ludwig II (Germany): Wonders, even unfinished, receive a +2 Culture bonus from each adjacent District. All Culture adjacency bonuses provide Tourism after researching Castles. Theodora (Byzantine): Holy Sites provide Culture equal to their adjacency bonus. Farms provide a +1 Faith adjacency to Hippodromes and Holy Sites. Kanfy fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Mar 15, 2023 |
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Mar 15, 2023 11:17
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