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Frosted Flake posted:I don't disagree, during the Civil War in particular state capacity had to be created out of nowhere, because the antebellum Jacksonian ideology, particularly in the planter south, opposed the state about as much as neoliberals do now, albeit for different reasons. yo this is a good-rear end post. I can hear it in Matt Christman's gravelly "been drinking LaCroixs all day" rasp
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Mar 16, 2023 22:27
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yellowcar posted:covid demonstrated america will never get its poo poo together Yeah, everything I’ve seen indicates modern America would not be able to truly pull it together during a serious, existential war. I’m picturing the scene from Starship Troopers, when the presumably easy invasion of the Alien homeworld goes to poo poo instantly and a million people are killed in a few hours. I think in the book they execute the general in charge of the invasion, but in the movie they have a big press conference afterwards where they say they were overconfident and vow to take it seriously… only to basically change nothing and it’s clear by the end of the movie that they are still losing and the few victories are extremely pyrrhic. Also I can’t imagine too many people signing up to die for this country. Like, yeah I can see a few racist chuds signing up day one for the chance to shoot foreigners, but I can’t see that happening day 2 onwards when people realize they are dying in a ditch or drowning at sea to protect Paul Pelosi’s freedom to drive drunk. Edit: Basically I can’t imagine those in power making any changes that Frosted Flake thinks are required. I don’t think that means they won’t try to go to war, though, because I think they are very stupid and legitimately think they can win. We will get horribly hilarious articles in the media about how Millenials are killing patriotism when no one volunteers or buys war bonds (not that they have the money to anyway). Pulcinella has issued a correction as of 22:34 on Mar 16, 2023 |
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Mar 16, 2023 22:30
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poland is gonna give ukraine 4 mig 29s
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Mar 16, 2023 22:33
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No one will sign up to fight for the oligarchs, but that's fine because they'll be conscripted anyway. The Russian model from the current war may be what we see, after all what use is having the most prisoners in the world and a society purpose built to make more if you're not going to enslave all of them?
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Mar 16, 2023 22:38
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The absolute best they'd be able to do is conscription for the front + slave labour for industry aka the Nazi Germany model, which as we all know was famously successful
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Mar 16, 2023 23:00
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Slavvy posted:The us was not a hollowed out neoliberal shell at the time. In the lead up to WW2 the US had an enormous industrial capacity and people in charge who knew what they were doing. Now it is a shadow of it's former self ruin by third generation failsons. There is no way to get from here to the previous state of affairs because: there is still a great deal of industrial capacity, but it doesn’t really employ a lot of folks. it does very much still exist however. Slavvy posted:Also another fantastic use of 'we', really gives the game away I’ve never hid what I am and the ideas I still participate in.
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Mar 16, 2023 23:26
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Bar Ran Dun posted:there is still a great deal of industrial capacity, but it doesn’t really employ a lot of folks. it does very much still exist however. not in any usable form. there may be screwdrivers lying around, but they no longer have hands
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Mar 16, 2023 23:31
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Yeah there's all these factories just chilling out like crated AK's slathered in cosmoline, waiting for the day president tucker gives the word to pull the covers off, switch back on and start cranking out hundreds of Abrams a day. Definitely.
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Mar 16, 2023 23:39
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indigi posted:not in any usable form. there may be screwdrivers lying around, but they no longer have hands The change is: they don’t need many hands. (well shipbuilding would.) that’s coming everywhere in manufacturing too, not just the west.
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Mar 16, 2023 23:40
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america couldn't even make enough lovely face masks so they lied that masks don't protect against covid
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Mar 16, 2023 23:42
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remember when nurses and doctors were wearing garbage bags because there weren't enough medical gowns
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Mar 16, 2023 23:43
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hoi4 has informed me its pretty easy to just make factories and go from tanks to forks and back as needed
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Mar 16, 2023 23:44
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also state authorities seizing each other's medical supplies while they were in transit was pretty funny
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Mar 16, 2023 23:45
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yellowcar posted:remember when nurses and doctors were wearing garbage bags because there weren't enough medical gowns i dont remember that episode of greys anatomy so its probably not a real thing that happened
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Mar 16, 2023 23:45
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yellowcar posted:also state authorities seizing each other's medical supplies while they were in transit was pretty funny Whoa, hey, some of those were Canadian.
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Mar 16, 2023 23:48
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yellowcar posted:also state authorities seizing each other's medical supplies while they were in transit was pretty funny the federal government handing over a bunch of confiscated medical supplies to private companies that then resold it to the people it had been stolen from in the first place the US Navy committing piracy multiple times to steal shipments of medical supplies and not even bothering to try to justify it the New England Patriots smuggling ventilators through customs on their private jet on behalf of their home state’s government to keep them from getting confiscated
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Mar 16, 2023 23:52
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yellowcar posted:remember when nurses and doctors were wearing garbage bags because there weren't enough medical gowns 
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Mar 17, 2023 01:31
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Frosted Flake posted:Bottom line: What are the ruling class offering people that makes fighting on their behalf preferable to the ruling class being defeated by China? I think the message being 'offered' by the ruling class is that China, as the new nazi germany (but with a hatred of all white people, rather than Jews) wants to kill or enslave you personally, so you have to fight them out of self-preservation. Conveniently this also means no introspection upon your own society is required.
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Mar 17, 2023 02:59
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remember the donation drives to buy body armor for American troops in Iraq lol
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Mar 17, 2023 03:18
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our very own lowtax got his paypal suspended over that
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Mar 17, 2023 03:22
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Wheeee posted:remember the donation drives to buy body armor for American troops in Iraq lol this very website had one if I recall
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Mar 17, 2023 03:23
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bring back current events
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Mar 17, 2023 03:24
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Wheeee posted:remember the donation drives to buy body armor for American troops in Iraq lol Bush had to really loosen restrictions on who was allowed to join the military (and also StopLoss™) because the military couldn’t meet its recruiting goals. That was 2004. Barely 3 years after  and people had long since stopped signing up to shoot people. So yeah, war with China would have to involve the draft.Also lol at this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/07/world/middleeast/many-missteps-tied-to-delay-in-armor-for-troops-in-iraq.html “Oh everyone on the frontlines in Iraq at this exact second has body armor? I guess we don’t need to buy any more. Let me just cancel the rest of the orders!  ”Also the usual style of grift, giving a military contract for ceramic plants to some random guy who has no idea how to make them but has connections.
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Mar 17, 2023 04:19
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The change is: they don’t need many hands. they need an industrial base to process the metal into weapons. The US manufactures less steel than India lol.
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Mar 17, 2023 04:41
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Wheeee posted:bring back current events - alternate universe Francis Fukuyama
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Mar 17, 2023 05:02
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Tankbuster posted:they need an industrial base to process the metal into weapons. The US manufactures less steel than India lol. US domestic steel product is often (it fluctuates so I don’t know this weeks) around 1.6 million tons a week. do you think that is not adequate for industrial war? A carrier displaces about 100,000 tons (to keep this all simple I’m not gunna bother with ST vs LT vs MT.) a tank is like 63 tons. if there were a switch to a war command economy is steel production the bottleneck for the US?
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Mar 17, 2023 06:24
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Bar Ran Dun posted:US domestic steel product is often (it fluctuates so I don’t know this weeks) around 1.6 million tons a week. You really can't grasp that this is literally impossible, can you?
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Mar 17, 2023 06:30
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all steel is not the same, hth
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Mar 17, 2023 06:33
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They could do tax credits for people who buy war bonds
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Mar 17, 2023 06:34
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um excuse me i think you mean means tested tax credits for people who buy war bonds for three years in disadvantaged communities
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Mar 17, 2023 06:36
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oh I get that you think it’s impossible. let’s ignore the existential war point from earlier. think about another possibility , real actual fascism. we go from neo-liberalism to an out right open fascist totalitarian state. see it’s not impossible materially. you think it’s impossible ideologically
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Mar 17, 2023 06:42
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Cerebral Bore posted:all steel is not the same, hth oh yeah definitely not.
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Mar 17, 2023 06:46
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"Yeah uh, hi, uh, I'll take a, uh, command economy, please." "Sir, we don't have that anymore."
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Mar 17, 2023 06:57
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don’t confuse possible for likely. I don’t think these scenarios are likely. Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 07:08 on Mar 17, 2023 |
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Mar 17, 2023 07:01
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Bar Ran Dun posted:oh I get that you think it’s impossible. Fascism is also not capable of properly marshalling the resources of the state even in an existential war. Source: world war two.
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Mar 17, 2023 07:08
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fascist america would make the abrams 3, which weigs 300 tons and has a railgun that fires rounds that cost a million dollars each
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Mar 17, 2023 07:11
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u know where they make steel? thats right PITTSBURGH
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Mar 17, 2023 07:20
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the idea of neoliberal states powering up to rational technocratic economic governance in the face of total war or whatever duress is extremely funny.
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Mar 17, 2023 07:35
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Bar Ran Dun posted:oh yeah definitely not. then why are you pretending as if it is?
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Mar 17, 2023 07:51
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Cerebral Bore posted:then why are you pretending as if it is? that's his posting gimmick
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Mar 17, 2023 08:01
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