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The people in said hobby thread disagree with you.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:06
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Bottom Liner posted:The people in said hobby thread disagree with you. When a thread alienates everyone who disagrees with a few prevailing voices the only people left posting there are gonna be ones who agree with them.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:15
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Maybe it would be simpler to, rather than write: "We don't talk about this game because criticizing it upsets thin-skinned baby people who are bad human beings" to instead go: "The content in this game is upsetting to a number of people because it features sexual violence and fetishy content, so we ask people not to bring it up in this thread. Thank you."
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Mar 20, 2023 23:18
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Bottom Liner posted:The people in said hobby thread disagree with you.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:19
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I’m literally just repeating what Leperflesh already explained to you all regarding the rule. \/ I misread their post, removed my comment The OP mention of it is closer to the latter than the former already. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 20, 2023 |
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Mar 20, 2023 23:26
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Bottom Liner posted:I’m literally just repeating what Leperflesh already explained to you all regarding the rule. What do you think that post is saying. Who do you think it is calling thin-skinned?
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Mar 20, 2023 23:32
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PurpleXVI posted:Maybe it would be simpler to, rather than write: "We don't talk about this game because criticizing it upsets thin-skinned baby people who are bad human beings" to instead go: "The content in this game is upsetting to a number of people because it features sexual violence and fetishy content, so we ask people not to bring it up in this thread. Thank you." Sounds good, frankly.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:36
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Maybe amend to allow discussion on spoiler tags and preceded by a content warning? 
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Mar 20, 2023 23:41
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Plutonis posted:Maybe amend to allow discussion on spoiler tags and preceded by a content warning? Seems a sensible approach.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:44
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idk anything about that game really and some of those figures seem, uh, hosed up, but warhammer and warhammer 40k have a lot of equally gross poo poo in it too, some of that is inherited cruft but some of it is still being referenced. like go and look up the lore about how skavens reproduce lol. i think they made some models and official material featuring that stuff too? im not an expert or anything tho but its not like warhammer doesnt have a lot of weird fans.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:58
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Plutonis posted:Yeah just make a KCD thread (or bump any existing one) and instruct people to bring the game's discussion there while stomping out drama I guess. This would make a lot more sense than changing an existing policy that has not been an issue for the thread. This entire discussion came up from people in this thread taking offense to the rule the board game thread has had in place for years. No one came here to bring up the banning of KDM in that thread as a problem, the debate about the rule was a by product of people finding out about it from the related discussion of posters that were causing problems because of that game. It's also not great a great feeling that after a mod and short lived admin was outed as forcing gross game content on people that we have other mods and an admin suggesting we remove a rule protecting people from that very thing in the board game thread after it was already a solved issue. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 00:01
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Bottom Liner posted:This would make a lot more sense than changing an existing policy that has not been an issue for the thread. This entire discussion came up from people in this thread taking offense to the rule the board game thread has had in place for years. No one came here to bring up the banning of KDM in that thread as a problem, the debate about the rule was a by product of people finding out about it from the related discussion of posters that were causing problems because of that game. I don't think people playing KD:M or talking about it is even remotely on the same level as the freak poo poo Podima and his little circus freak crew did. You need to get some perspective.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:12
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Bottom Liner posted:It's also not great a great feeling that after a mod and short lived admin was outed as forcing gross game content on people that we have other mods and an admin suggesting we remove a rule protecting people from that very thing in the board game thread after it was already a solved issue. 
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Mar 21, 2023 00:16
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Bottom Liner posted:It's also not great a great feeling that after a mod and short lived admin was outed as forcing gross game content on people that we have other mods and an admin suggesting we remove a rule protecting people from that very thing in the board game thread after it was already a solved issue.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:20
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I don't think people playing KD:M or talking about it is even remotely on the same level as the freak poo poo Podima and his little circus freak crew did. You need to get some perspective. Removing a rule that keeps discussion of a game with gross content out of the thread would be lovely to the people that explicitly said the game is offensive and they don’t want it in the thread. That decision being forced on the thread from outside would be worse. There’s no reason why if the game must be discussed it can’t have its own thread.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:40
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Bottom Liner posted:Removing a rule that keeps discussion of a game with gross content out of the thread would be lovely to the people that explicitly said the game is offensive and they don’t want it in the thread. That decision being forced on the thread from outside would be worse. There’s no reason why if the game must be discussed it can’t have its own thread. Even if the rule is there, it can absolutely be phrased in a way that is less poo poo-starting.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:43
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PurpleXVI posted:Even if the rule is there, it can absolutely be phrased in a way that is less poo poo-starting. Magnetic North posted:Kingdom Death: Monster It’s pretty thorough and level headed. It’s not inflammatory and has not been contentious.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:48
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and 
examples, and a description of one of the monster models. Content warning for blood, gore, violence, nudity, grotesque sexual monstrosities, sexual violence against women, women in dangerous or compromising positions, vore (yes, really).
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Yes?? The problem with that post is how up its own rear end it is, congratulations
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Mar 21, 2023 00:49
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Yes?? The problem with that post is how up its own rear end it is, congratulations It’s not my post, but thank you. Report it if you have a problem.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:50
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Bottom Liner posted:It’s not my post, but thank you. Report it if you have a problem. Why did you post it in response to someone saying that it should be said in a less poo poo stirring manner? Do you think that post isn't poo poo stirring...? What is your problem exactly. Saying that people only play it cuz they're bad people experiencing sunken cost fallacy is the opposite of well reasoned and level headed lol
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Mar 21, 2023 00:51
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Bottom Liner posted:It’s not my post, but thank you. Report it if you have a problem. I know posting about others posting sucks but look at the state of this dude
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Mar 21, 2023 00:52
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Bottom Liner posted:It’s pretty thorough and level headed. It’s not inflammatory and has not been contentious. The entire section describing the defenders and their theoretical reactions as the problem is pointlessly aggressive. Just say: "It has some content that many people consider gross or upsetting, therefore we ask that people keep it out of this thread out of consideration for those people." rather than using it as a platform to attack the people who like something about KDM. They might even not like the monster buttholes, maybe they just think some of the mechanics are good.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:53
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PurpleXVI posted:They might even not like the monster buttholes, maybe they just think some of the mechanics are good.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:54
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Reading the OP of a thread and getting the vibes of an acrimoniously-ended posting battle is not the kind of thing that makes me want to post there
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Mar 21, 2023 00:56
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PurpleXVI posted:The entire section describing the defenders and their theoretical reactions as the problem is pointlessly aggressive. Just say: "It has some content that many people consider gross or upsetting, therefore we ask that people keep it out of this thread out of consideration for those people." rather than using it as a platform to attack the people who like something about KDM. They might even not like the monster buttholes, maybe they just think some of the mechanics are good. Yep. This is how I feel about it. I've said already that I think it's fine that the general mega chat thread doesn't want discussion of it there, but for some reason Bottom Liner seems very hard set on the idea that anyone who touches this extremely popular board game must be bad people, which is just poisoning any sort of discussion well on the outset.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:58
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Yep. This is how I feel about it. I've said already that I think it's fine that the general mega chat thread doesn't want discussion of it there, but for some reason Bottom Liner seems very hard set on the idea that anyone who touches this extremely popular board game must be bad people, for some reason which is just poisoning any sort of discussion well on the outset. Where did I say any of that? I already said I didn’t call for the ban of the game being discussed my problem was with the two posters that couldn’t stop being lovely about it. I’m defending the rule that was put in place by others two years ago and agreed upon by the mods because you are all acting like it’s shocking and offensive when it has been fine. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 01:00
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If the Board Games thread is so united on this stance on KD, it’d be nice if any thread regular other than Bottom Liner would post here about it one way or the other.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:00
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Would like to hear from PRADA SLUT, honestly.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:02
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Bottom Liner posted:Where did I say any of that? I already said I didn’t call for the ban of the game being discussed my problem was with the two posters that couldn’t stop being lovely about it. I’m defending the rule that was putting place by others two years ago and agreed upon by the mods because you are all acting like it’s shocking and offensive when it has been fine. Having looked back at what actually started the "two posters that couldn't stop being lovely about it", one of them posted in there (at the end of the last thread, two years ago) in a normal, productive fashion about the mechanics of the game and was called a bunch of awful poo poo and ruthlessly dogpiled until they bit back at which point they got probed. It seems like the actual problem with this game is a handful of posters including you, the OP of the current thread, the former IK, and a couple other people who turned any potential discussion of it into a nuclear shitshow and made it look like someone else's fault until the mods caved. And it's not just that game but the general atmosphere of the thread about a bunch of things that give off a cliquey and gatekeepy vibe that I certainly wouldn't want to have posted in for the few months it was super prevalent and it looks like a bunch of other people felt the same and stopped posting there. To be clear, I don't give a poo poo about Kingdom Death and have never played it, I started posting here in response to feedback about leperflesh that looked a bit unreasonable and that has slowly turned into a rock being overturned on what looks to me like some really weird poo poo Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 01:08
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Bottom Liner posted:Where did I say any of that? I already said I didn’t call for the ban of the game being discussed my problem was with the two posters that couldn’t stop being lovely about it. I’m defending the rule that was put in place by others two years ago and agreed upon by the mods because you are all acting like it’s shocking and offensive when it has been fine. perhaps you could leave it for other thread participants to chime in for a bit, BL, as you've made your point extremely thoroughly.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:16
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I'm fine with no kingdom death. game's gross, don't want to see or hear about it
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Mar 21, 2023 01:18
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Edit: Seb posted as I was typing. This is my last post here. Just liking the mechanics is not justification for making a lot of people uncomfortable by talking about the rape game. If that makes you mad that says more about you than anything. There are plenty of places to discuss that gross game or other problematic content and I’m glad the board game thread cares more about being welcoming than protecting the right to talk about a sexual assault laden game.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:19
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Well, okay. This kind of back and forth useless argument about talking about KDM is why, in my recollection, I (and other posters, I believe) wanted discussion of the game to stop. It led to pages and pages of lovely posting, and nothing about the game seemed remotely worth that. I wouldn't care at all if someone came in, said "hey I just played KDM, anyone else play it?" and got a "Nah, and honestly it's kind of a game that's bad for the hobby, for x y z" and that was that, it'd be fine. Just to liken it to another game in the hobby that is similar in my mind, Cards against Humanity. If there were people coming into the thread, repeatedly, saying they liked it, and it led to pages upon pages of arguing about whether or not talking about the game is okay, I'd probably have requested that to also stop being talked about.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:27
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I hate the idea of censoring all discussion of KD:M. Seems spoilers would be a decent solution for people who want to bury their heads in the sand and not read about it.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:28
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imo conversations should mostly progress on the assumption that someone who disagrees with you doesnt love sexual assault
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Mar 21, 2023 01:28
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There have been exactly 0 good or interesting discussions related to KD:M. In a vacuum, the game itself is tasteless but not to the point that it needs to be banned as a topic. Once you get passed the shock value there's not much that's actually interesting about it and if it wasn't banned nobody would be talking about it still. The problem is that the argument around it has grown beyond the game itself, and any discussion of it lands you on either side of a posting war whose origin is forgotten and irrelevant. If you like the game then you're a defender of every bit of vile horseshit contained within its pages, and if you don't like it then you're part of a screaming mob trying to purge the thread of any dissenting opinions. You can try unbanning it again but I guarantee it will make low effort trolls jump into the thread to rile up the people who just cannot resist taking the obvious bait. After a few days to a couple of weeks of poo poo storms the topic will get banned again and we'll start this discussion all over in another 6 months to a year. I think the best thing everyone can do on this topic is just stop caring so much about it.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:30
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So it seems like the way that makes most people happy would be 1. Make a thread for the game 2. redo the section of the boardgames OP to not be holier than thou crap implying anyone who likes the game is Bad, and say that the nature of conversation around the game has led to derails so all discussion should go to the main thread, and link to it This should be agreeable, no?
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Mar 21, 2023 01:31
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Forgive the delay in my response. I had intended on getting "stuck in" which I why I decided to chuck this big rear end bomb into the thread, but life (cough Hades cough) kept me away. First off: Magnetic North posted:First, for the record, I do not think it is profitable to re-litigate much of anything about the approximately 9-month slow burn meltdown in the board game thread at his juncture. Well, that sure didn't happen. Oh well. I cannot answer everything so I'm just going to try and hit the high and important points I noticed. I am not trying to exclude any specific points. If anyone has something important they want my comment on, you can PM me. Leperflesh posted:I put it to you that this is, actually, the first time this has happened. Unless there's something I don't know about a previous mod. The "not the first time" was in reference to mod's judgement has been questioned, not anything else. Leperflesh posted:So my take until now has been that MN volunteered to put together an OP for this thread, they get the prerogative of coloring it according to their views Boy oh boy I don't like this implication that I've got some loving axe to grind against KD:M. I have no agenda. It's not something I would otherwise think of. Believe me, I would have been much happier not having those images in my brain or my search history. I think that paragraph is balanced considering the content it discusses except maybe the parenthetical "(yes really)". I did my level best to make it fair to the KD:M defenders and also allow some insight into their apparent defensiveness to a confused and disgusted outsider. It's not to mock them for being thin skinned; it's to demonstrate that they are invested in a very human way. Without that background, someone who only knows Ticket to Ride is going to get a wildly different idea, which is not conducive in understanding these people who don't see themselves as perverts. On the other hand, I also tried to not use any accusatory language. Just linking to the art and does not refer to it as "implied sexual assault" or anything remotely questionable. The only reason it was added was the moderation team member (the IK who you later hung out to dry) requested it, so I got to spend a few hours of my finite time on this earth looking at that stuff trying to make it sensible for posterity. Believe me, I would like nothing more than to never think about that game. Especially because I am never going to play for a huge host of reasons. Tism the Dragon Tickler posted:When a thread alienates everyone who disagrees with a few prevailing voices the only people left posting there are gonna be ones who agree with them. The same happens when moderation decisions fail to make a thread usable. People in this thread have reported to me they don't post because of that. Also, considering how few people comment on the OP and how many people ask things answered in the OP, I don't think the OP gets tons of traffic. I doubt that they are having some sort of repellent effect on a level even comparable to the thread's baseline snobbishness. But that's fine to disagree on, obviously. It's unprovable. For those wondering why that "sjw" section is in there: In the past thread there were numerous stories about gamers who bought hobbyist games from Phil Eklund who were sad because they later discovered he was not someone they would have supported monetarily. Bad people like Eklund profit from that lack of general awareness so I thought maybe an OP could arm goons with that information. Also, for 3-4 months before and after it was posted, the board game world was in a whirlwind of these types of scandals from various places, some of which were added to the OP. That fortunately does not appear to be the new normal, but it certainly felt like it was a big deal at the time. This is on top of the fact that most trad games spaces are still resistant to progressive causes, and I know some posters were minorities so I wanted to be vocal about it being a safe space for goons of all kinds to discover a hobby that is for everyone. Also, at the time, did we mention the old thread was having a sexist meltdown because of mod inaction? (To be fair, by my recollection, there were more probes in December.) It felt right at the time, in that landscape. If I was making it today, I don't know that I would necessarily have approached it that way. It's sort of a time capsule into how wild those 6-8 months were, and not just in the thread. In any case, there would still have been a gently caress Eklund section no matter what. Even though things have cooled down, I'm not gonna bother changing it now since it's already loving written. Plutonis posted:Maybe amend to allow discussion on spoiler tags and preceded by a content warning? It's too late at this point. For the most part, the fight is about the fight now, so unburying that will just make it worse. It would have to have its own thread if anything. Hell, go create it for all I care. There used to be one; I actually used it to get links to find some of the images for the OP but I assume it's archived by now. Leperflesh posted:So another topic is threadbans. Leperflesh posted:You were not asking for "moderation", which was already taking place, you can check the rap sheets and leper's colony: you were demanding one or two posters to be threadbanned, specifically, with nothing less acceptable. Let me just quote myself from my missive to VG. Me talking to Video Games posted:As a part of that, we have this post: Now-Banned User Orange Devil saying "Threadban prada slut". This got emptyquoted several times. Let me say this much: I was unfamiliar with the idea of a threadban before this happened. I didn't know it was an actual thing. In a few days we were hoping to continue the thread into the new year with a fresh lick of paint, and that leads us up to the new, current thread. So, I think the claim that people wanted threadbans and that probes were happening is at least half true. Yes, lots of people were calling for them, but also in my recollection, probes really slowed down spring-ish: As someone who reads every post, you'd see lots of stuff go unanswered even from the usual suspects. Obviously, this is all subjective half-remembered stuff from a year ago: I am not going to go collect data to try and demonstrate it; it was annoying enough the first time. In my opinion, if you had just probed people more aggressively and consistently, they would have stopped and gotten bored and gone somewhere else. Maybe that's wrong but since it didn't happen, I guess we'll never know. Leperflesh posted:I think talking about my mod style is fair game and I encourage it. Good because you loving suck at it. Maybe other situations can use the hippy-bullshit-look-at-me approach, but when that thread was in that state, you literally made it worse. If the moderation just didn't happen and reports went unanswered, it would have stayed at a certain level as people probably lost interest. If you didn't open your stupid mouth, you wouldn't have continued to enrage people. Mad people poo poo up threads, trolls feed on thread poo poo, the cycle continues. You both had the power to fix it with more probes and the power to make it worse by talking about it, and that is what you did to a thread you admitted you don't read. You need a "Hey this is serious" detector or something. I can believe it's the worst thing that's happened to you as mod because it was not exactly great for me as someone who was trying to keep things on the rails with zero power. Leperflesh posted:I spend far more personal time trying to make this forum better by talking to people than it would take to just moderate via buttons. I don't give a gently caress about your time. I care about the effect. Are you the most effective you can be? If you are not using every tool in your box, then how can we possibly say that? Leperflesh posted:It seems to me that the moderation worked. I feel like the outcome is a good thread now. I hope that anyone who was avoiding the thread would go back to it. I would like to hear from anyone else who also thinks the thread is still in a bad place and needs more aggressive moderation. The thread is fine now, but it was not fine for about nine months, with maybe the occasional few weeks between hot spots. December (one month of its predecessor) to August. After the de-IKing, it chilled out, and I theorize that is because I think tons of people left because they knew they could not count on the moderation. This is a slightly tasteless metaphor, but this is the "Crimea voted for independence" issue where the presence does not include all the people who left. Of course, I can't prove it and I'm not going to poo poo up the outside places where those people have fled to, outside of asking just this once that they come to comment to that effect if they think you loving suck. I assume most have declined because they are doubtful that anything will change, and I cannot blame them. Regardless, an extended meltdown and the worst modding experience of your career over multiple months is not something you should count as some sort of unvarnished win for your moderation style. Even if you do not accept that you hosed it up hard, it is the height of delusion to put it down as a win. Leperflesh posted:The reason we did not threadban anyone from the boardgame thread was that it would have been a huge leap up, out of proportion to what they were doing, and a misuse of a tool mods are instructed to use very sparingly if at all. The posters being complained about were both issued probations, and directly contacted via PMs. One of them has largely stopped doing the bad things and has been contributing to the thread in a positive way for a year, save one or two minor sixers for needling the thread: the other got ramped up to a hard probe, and when VideoGame stepped in, they tried gloating about Mayveena and got a stark warning that seems to have worked. Wait, WHAT? I never heard about this direct contact. I know it is not my goddamn business, but think of the implication. If such a thing happened and that direct contact is the cause for the post-IK peace... if the thread had been told "hey there, we've had a few behind the scenes chat and we think we're good now." if I had known I could have quietly told people that the mods were actually loving doing something and maybe they would have come back.That could have allayed so much of the frustration. I literally typed the previous paragraph before I re-scanned your interminable post again and saw what I'd missed. You realize the reason that people were mad was perceived inaction, right? So you solve the problem and... keep it secret? I'm not saying it's a mistake because I think it probably made sense at the time, but in hindsight that almost certainly would have been a positive thing to do, at least for the people annoyed at the individual mods. That is... unless you're not talking about some PM stuff and are just talking about this post from Video Games. If you are, then ignore what I just said; all this proves is that you are completely ineffectual as a "talking it out, hug it out" mod. VG comes in one sentence and defeats someone you haven't in 9 months? And look what it takes: the threat of force. The mod powers that you swore an oath to god 20 years ago to never use again. In the hour (  ) -s plural () it took to write all this, the KD:M defenders have logged on. You can see why this discussion had to stop. Maybe the mods can do the needful and ban it here too.tl;dr: Leperflesh is still a bad mod and should feel bad.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:31
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Ibram Gaunt posted:So it seems like the way that makes most people happy would be Think the spoiler tag and content warning section also could work as a solution.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:32
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Bottom Liner posted:Edit: Seb posted as I was typing. This is my last post here. this wild level of hyperbolic aggro posting just makes me more convinced that something weird is going on with you dude
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Mar 21, 2023 01:37
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