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Horizon Burning posted:absolutely. b5's combination of 'arc episodes' and stand-alones is something i really miss. It's more common in shows with long seasons. The financials that created that system don't seem to exist anymore, so it's basically dead. But yeah, that genre owned. Babylon 5, Xena, Farscape, Buffy, Angel, Alias, L O S T, Gotham, Agents of SHIELD and Legends of Tomorrow were all good, with greater or lesser amounts of serialisation -- though they inevitably became very serialised by the ends of their runs.
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Mar 21, 2023 06:40
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sebmojo posted:The purely serialized format can also lead to some deeply tedious tv tbh. I actually think buffy and b5 got a really good balance. I absolutely agree on this point. It also made world building easier, because standalone plots could tackle stuff that would seem distracting/superfluous in a purely serialized setting. And it's probably less obvious if you set up Chekhov's Gun in one of those standalone episodes. Like the healing machine Marcus uses to save Ivanova's life.
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Mar 21, 2023 06:45
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Unrelatedly I watched the last ep of angel again the other night, and loving hell that still bangs
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Mar 21, 2023 08:15
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CainFortea posted:Oh man they're *really* not going to like Lochley if they get that far. Did we ever know if the whole "you left we were stuck behind and closed our ears because it was all we could do" was a planned part or was it just making do with having to replace Ivonava and cramming someone in? It's a pretty interesting reaction, though, when you consider that Kosh is the one espousing that perspective. And while Kosh is probably more benevolent than the other Vorlons, he's still a Vorlon. The undercover point makes me wonder, though. When did B5 establish that Psi Corps members must wear the uniform, gloves, and badge and so on? I presume Talia mentions it early on.
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Mar 21, 2023 13:07
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mllaneza posted:Star Trek: Prodigy has a really nice balance between standalone episodes and long story arcs. It's areally good show and is now my standard "I'd like to get into Star Trek" recommendation. See, the main characters start off never having even heard of the Federation or Starfleet, or even dreamed that a society with those values could exist. The audience learns about Federation values along with the main characters making it an excellent starting point. Huh, I hadn't heard anything about this one until now. Thanks for the recommendation. The premise looks interesting. ... And it has Jameela Jamil, Jason Alexander, and Daveed Diggs as recurring cast?
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Mar 21, 2023 13:09
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Vavrek posted:Huh, I hadn't heard anything about this one until now. Thanks for the recommendation. The premise looks interesting. Prodigy is pretty rad, it flies under some people's radar because of nickelodeon. Also those actors are recurring, but not right away.
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Mar 21, 2023 13:13
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Vavrek posted:... And it has Jameela Jamil, Jason Alexander, and Daveed Diggs as recurring cast? And Kate Mulgrew, Robert Beltran, and whatsisname from TNG who played Captain Jellicoe back as Admiral Jellicoe.
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Mar 21, 2023 13:13
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mllaneza posted:And Kate Mulgrew, Robert Beltran, and whatsisname from TNG who played Captain Jellicoe back as Admiral Jellicoe. I mean, I was kind of sold on the show just for it having more Kate Mulgrew. I noted those three because I know and like their non-Star Trek work, and didn't expect to see them on the cast list.
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Mar 21, 2023 13:21
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CainFortea posted:Oh man they're *really* not going to like Lochley if they get that far. Did we ever know if the whole "you left we were stuck behind and closed our ears because it was all we could do" was a planned part or was it just making do with having to replace Ivonava and cramming someone in? Well, Lochley is pretty badly executed, mostly because pussyfoot around what exactly she did and because they throw here in with the rest of the cast. But other than that, I actually find B5 take on comeuppance and recon reconciliation pretty good, because it is pretty realistic, as there is no real way to "punish" the defeated party in a war in the classical way. Justice is an impossibility on such a large scale. G'Kar entire arc is about how the Narn have to let go of their hatred, not because the Centauri deserve forgiveness, but for their own sake. e X fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 13:55
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e X posted:Well, Lochley is pretty badly executed, mostly because pussyfoot around what exactly she did and because they throw here in with the rest of the cast. Right, I was just wondering if JMS ever said one way or another if the way she was treated was done on purpose and part of the overall plan (in which case it was an error on his part thinking that was gonna go over well) or if what we see as pussyfooting around it all was an artefact of them having to basically cram her into a Nu-Ivanova roll.
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Mar 21, 2023 14:38
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So it turns out that Tom watched S1 "Signs and Portents" without noticing that he'd missed one episode. The season title episode. 
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Mar 21, 2023 15:52
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The season titles aren't displayed in most of the locations where new viewers get the show.
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Mar 21, 2023 15:58
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CainFortea posted:Right, I was just wondering if JMS ever said one way or another if the way she was treated was done on purpose and part of the overall plan (in which case it was an error on his part thinking that was gonna go over well) or if what we see as pussyfooting around it all was an artefact of them having to basically cram her into a Nu-Ivanova roll. I haven't watched season 5 in a while so I'm sorry if this is silly, but I felt they didn't really treat the entire after-math of the Earth civil war well. Of course there were the, uh, timing? issues we know about with cancellation fears and so on, but then we get Lochley who just mostly stands there while Garibaldi pokes at her about which side she was on. Sure, we get the great scene where Sheridan totally out-wits the Earth president to protect "his people", and that's fun, but a lot of the drama just... Ends when
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Mar 21, 2023 18:08
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Rappaport posted:
I don't know know. The final season was pretty dark. When the season ends the Interstellar Alliance is a failure, Centauri Prime is in ruins and Sheridan's son is destined to be taken over by a keeper.
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Mar 21, 2023 19:18
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They definitely say during the civil war that they're noting down who is firing on civilians and planning for tribunals, so I would hope that happens, but for the most part the narrative just has no interest in how things are going on Earth (or even Mars) after the war's over. I guess for what its worth, from what the show does say about Earth after the war, things aren't just all good after the war's done. Heck, there's the whole standoff against the psycorp which is paired with all the talk about a coming war between flatscans and psychics. Season 5 isn't very good compared to the rest of the show and isn't very satisfying as a whole, but I think if season 5 is about anything, it's about how after the big war that should've changed everything, things keep happening, things keep moving, problems still aren't solved.
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Mar 21, 2023 19:21
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SlothfulCobra posted:They definitely say during the civil war that they're noting down who is firing on civilians and planning for tribunals, so I would hope that happens, but for the most part the narrative just has no interest in how things are going on Earth (or even Mars) after the war's over. S5 is about how the big acts of heroism and "great man" history are easy and the harder, more systemic changes take much longer, much more work, and a lot of labor by people who will not be recognized or remembered for their contributions. Deconstruction of Falling Stars makes it pretty clear that Earthgov isn't magically reformed after Clark's suicide, and hints that the underlying fascistic tendencies are no more defeated than they were after WW 2. The show claims the arc of history is slow progress and frequent setbacks; humanity will be Vorlon-like in a million years, but they'll also have an enemy who made the Sun go nova, assuming that wasn't done by humanity to itself. The Lockley thread really didn't get much developed, but the broader point is that war makes things seem simple and easy and right/wrong, but when the war ends things get complicated. Do you forgive everyone except the leaders? Hold everyone accountable, even if they just stood by and allowed atrocities instead of committing them? After WW 2, should all members of the Nazi party have been tried and imprisoned or executed? All Germans? Do you take the reverse route, like after the American Civil War, where the people who fought against the federal government in the name of owning human beings simply slip back into positions of power and do everything possible to harm the people they previously owned, while rewriting history so their descendants understand them to be the heroes? Given what we know of the impending Telepath War, and the plotline from Crusade, it looks like there's still very deep corruption within Earthgov, the EA military, and the Psi Corps, and while we do see incremental reforms, they don't look sufficient and the whole process seems corrupt (see the Crusade episode where we see what the military teep has to go through as part of an "evaluation"). On the plus side, there's every indication Delenn is an excellent ISA President and Sheridan makes a much better Ranger One. It just takes some time to make the change, since Sheridan is the big drat hero from the Shadow War.
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Mar 21, 2023 21:55
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The bit where Sinclair does by any means necessary does get brought up again, doesn't it? Not sure if they missed it or haven't got to it
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Mar 21, 2023 23:03
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Narsham posted:they'll also have an enemy who made the Sun go nova, assuming that wasn't done by humanity to itself.
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Mar 21, 2023 23:25
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You're off by a few billion years on that.
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Mar 21, 2023 23:27
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Slyphic posted:I've always assumed that was the sun reaching it's natural end of life, and it just took us a really really loving long time to grow up though we did eventually get there. OR that alien came back to watch the sun snuff it from wherever humans wound up for posterity and the historical record. Nope. Not only is a million years way too short a timescale, but the sun isn't big enough to go nova ever. It was something artificial.
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Mar 21, 2023 23:56
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Grand Fromage posted:Nope. Not only is a million years way too short a timescale, but the sun isn't big enough to go nova ever. It was something artificial. Or it was a narrative choice because "going red giant and crisping the earth (but not blowing it up)" didn't have enough punch.
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Mar 22, 2023 00:00
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Must have forgotten the 'million' number because yeah, off by an order of magnitude. In that case, I guess we went full Kardashev type 2 civ and used it up till it went bang. Or to paraphrase, time travelled at the speed of plot, and JMS didn't give a poo poo about the physics. I'll go rewatch the end, but I don't recall any kind of antagonistic element to it blowing up.
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Mar 22, 2023 00:00
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It's not said why it blows up, just that it does.
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Mar 22, 2023 00:09
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CainFortea posted:Or it was a narrative choice because "going red giant and crisping the earth (but not blowing it up)" didn't have enough punch. This is my assumption, also I think it was still up in the air which way things would go in the 90's.
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Mar 22, 2023 00:11
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From the JMS posts section of the lurker’s Guide:quote:My personal nit is that JMS has the sun going nova in only a million years. This seems several orders of magnitude too soon for me." Sun going nova is definitely artificially induced. Why and how is left to speculate.
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Mar 22, 2023 00:21
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I need to rewatch the start of the interstellar alliance stuff, because I think it'll definitely hit different than the last time I watched it a decade back. If you describe what happens devoid of the character moments we watch, it would definitely read more like Sheridan consolidating power rather than anything necessarily noble. The show definitely frames it as him being selfless, but taking on that role as anything but a caretaker, especially when your wife is the vice president doesn't feel like a great set up for good governance at all. He talks about how he hoped it would come together and people would pick him, but realistically he and Delenn were the ones bringing the white stars and the rangers to the table. Regardless of what words are coming out of people's mouths, there are a lot of implications that governments are going to read out of the 'choices' they have in that situation. Part of the narrative is definitely talking about how systems need to get built up, but there's also a reasonable part of the show's narrative point of view that comes from within the bubble of Sheridan and Delenn's heavily privileged positions. Straczynski likes his self-sacrificing hero, but there's an inherent bit of arrogant noblesse oblige sort of stuff that's built in to that. The show kind of tries to move on from the idea of the great man driving change, but it kind of does it by saying 'look a how the great men selflessly set up systems even though they are more right.
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Mar 22, 2023 00:23
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I started another rewatch, spurt on by the recent activity in this thread, and man, this time around I really appreciate Season 1. I am on episode 9 now and so far it has been super solid, much better than I remembered. It also reminded me again how much more I like Sinclair. He is very much a diplomat who always tries to find a diplomatic solution before he resorts to force, and he almost never pulled rank on Garibaldi or Ivanova, which is in a stark contrasts to John "Nuke'em" Sheridan who basically ran Babylon 5 like a military dictatorship. Which makes total sense from a story perspective, he is a a captain in charge of a military installation and Commanded a starship before, but it is also pretty interesting, that when Babylon 5 declared independence from Earth due to Clark becoming a dictator, it also basically became a Junta. And no point did they ask any of the quarter million people on board what they actually thought. I think also Sinclair would have had much more success when running the Interstellar Alliance. e X fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Mar 22, 2023 |
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Mar 22, 2023 00:59
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Regarding the million years thing: It's foreshadowed in Season One. It's something I always note, that when answering "Is Space Worth It for Earth? Should we be Out Here?", Sinclair uses the figure of a million years as the lifespan of the sun. Like, he's laying it out as "we have no idea when, only that it will someday" (which now sounds incredibly religious when I put it that way), and his upper bound for a long time off is a million years.
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Mar 22, 2023 02:53
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sebmojo posted:The bit where Sinclair does by any means necessary does get brought up again, doesn't it? Not sure if they missed it or haven't got to it It’s mentioned in ‘Eyes’, isn’t it?
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Mar 22, 2023 18:29
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Zaroff posted:It’s mentioned in ‘Eyes’, isn’t it?
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Mar 22, 2023 18:31
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Repercussions from the dock worker strike would've been a major plot point if Sinclair had stuck around after season 1, but it got dropped with Sheridan's arrival.
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Mar 22, 2023 18:34
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Yeah, money's already been reallocated, the guy who did it is gone, only a fool would try to provoke another strike, and then Earthgov comes out with their own extra money to give the station militant renovations anyways when they used it as a staging ground.
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Mar 22, 2023 19:03
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It's kinda great that while Sinclair tries actually tries to solve it, Garibaldi is on the ground to beat up some exploited workers . The episode is fun, but classiest as all hell.
e X fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Mar 22, 2023 |
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Mar 22, 2023 19:20
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Chevy Slyme posted:From the JMS posts section of the lurker’s Guide: Didn't JMS imply at some point that it was the Drakh or related to them, or am I just totally making that up?
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Mar 22, 2023 23:24
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from newbie threadGrand Fromage posted:They also do a great job with the composition and stuff so even though it's low res it still looks good. And the CG significantly improves through the series. Eh, it is a matter of an opinion. Series gets more pixels, but the design and composition goes to poo poo. No more semi-realistic Newtonian Space combat. Instead we get Star Wars style Pew Pew Pew and Airplane dogfights. Best space battle is between Narns and Shadows in Season 2 episode "The Long Twilight Struggle". No contest.
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Mar 23, 2023 11:08
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If you can call it a battle.  
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Mar 23, 2023 12:29
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Issaries posted:from newbie thread Still, B5's loss was Star Trek's gain - Foundation did some fantastic work there, like the second half of the massive Starfleet/Dominion/Klingon battle in DS9's 'Sacrifice of Angels' or Voyager crashing on the ice planet in 'Timeless'.
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Mar 23, 2023 13:12
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Issaries posted:
??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPcFzBBS3tc There's plenty of semi-realistic newtonian space combat in there. They did add a bit more...swoopyness?...but that always seemed relegated to the more advanced ships in the show overall.
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Mar 23, 2023 14:34
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CainFortea posted:??? As far as I'm concerned, swoopy ships are less advanced  This is the good stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqpVl-gdIyE
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Mar 23, 2023 14:49
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I dunno, I just watched Into The Wilderness (1) and the choreo there wasn't that impressive. That said, the planet looked amazing and the (partly?) practical effects for the laser corridor were pretty good though. (I actually found the episode itself to be kind of boring, I won't lie.)
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Mar 23, 2023 15:36
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