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List nut punk. That riddle asked potty ignored canned possum be gived rippa rear end whippin. I'm gonna gimp you. EAT A REEF. If you wanna stamp up to PUNCHY, BACON OFF. Cuz eiffel got. Don't take my medications, Morty AND AMEN THE REEEAAAL BAD MOON The Ahmed promos are so legendary I was able to write all that from memory.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:19
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(in my most disaffected voice while swinging my arms like a bored 6 yr old) "like I said, there's no stopping this thoroughbred."
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Mar 21, 2023 16:37
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I never got to play No Mercy until like 2018 due to not having an N64 so I don't have that connection to it like a lot of people do (as I mentioned, my childhood game was the SYM/HCTP duology) but I did like that it didn't check the various story mode routes at all so you could have like Viscera challenge for the Cruiserweight title or whatever. What's the magic thing that people want to recapture from No Mercy? I know the controls and stuff are a lot different but did it make the actual minute to minute gameplay very different? Like to me the big thing I miss is the way the PS2 games felt so much I guess looser? Like you only had a few grapple moves but you could do them all easily and people would bounce around and there weren't as many like gates on what you can do? Like throwing someone out of the rumble or off the cell wasn't a scripted scene it just happened in the physics engine. You could just spam 5 finishers right at the start and then fall off a helicopter.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:40
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projecthalaxy posted:
The control scheme found the right balance between enough variety of moves in each wrestler’s move set to feel like unique characters but not over complicating it to have options for every single kind of scenario that just muddies things up and makes it harder to pick up as a newcomer. The actual answer is most of us singing the praises of those games are guys in their mid-30s wanting to recapture the nostalgia of playing local multiplayer at a friends house in 2001
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Mar 21, 2023 16:46
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projecthalaxy posted:I never got to play No Mercy until like 2018 due to not having an N64 so I don't have that connection to it like a lot of people do (as I mentioned, my childhood game was the SYM/HCTP duology) but I did like that it didn't check the various story mode routes at all so you could have like Viscera challenge for the Cruiserweight title or whatever. It’s the controls for me. It was perfectly simple and nearly every other wrestling game I’ve played feels like absolute dogshit in comparison
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Mar 21, 2023 16:47
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No mercy on actual hardware these days feels glacially slow. Thankfully it runs pretty well on PC now. Grab yourself a USB N64 adapter.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:47
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projecthalaxy posted:I never got to play No Mercy until like 2018 due to not having an N64 so I don't have that connection to it like a lot of people do (as I mentioned, my childhood game was the SYM/HCTP duology) but I did like that it didn't check the various story mode routes at all so you could have like Viscera challenge for the Cruiserweight title or whatever. i dug the pacing and the intangible crunch of it all. the way matches built to conclusions was satisfying
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Mar 21, 2023 16:52
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JUNGLE BOY posted:It’s the controls for me. It was perfectly simple and nearly every other wrestling game I’ve played feels like absolute dogshit in comparison this. some of the newer 2k games have insanely loving bad minigames for submissions and even pins that can lead to you losing in 10 seconds because you didn't line up a dot and push A fast enough in some stupid cone. there's been a push towards "realism" which ironically lead to more uncanny valley glitchiness and busywork when at the end of the day, all you need is what worked even way back in like wwe 2k14---press grapple+direction, then another face button+direction. that's the core of what extent I can accept in terms of being complex butthey kept adding other weirdo poo poo and bogged it down. there's dumb poo poo that needed improvement in the old games but it wouldn't take much to just get to a decent place while also improving the other things. the story mode in No Mercy specifically is leaps and bounds better than the current MYRISE or whatever it's called, which again aims for realism over the more fun/funny poo poo of "I paid the Acolytes 500 dollars to protect me from Tazz and then got put into a ladder match with Test"
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Mar 21, 2023 16:55
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I think virtual pro wrestling 2 is better than no mercy but no mercy is a close second. The game looks and sounds brutal. Dudes screaming when they tap out, the moves look incredible, the sound of the bell when you hit someone in the nuts or with the bell, they way people just crumble when you ko them, the super quick replays, lots of little things that that all don't seem to be in the post n64 games. The gamecube games are fun but they seem floaty to me and a little too fast.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:57
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Suplex Liberace posted:I think virtual pro wrestling 2 is better than no mercy but no mercy is a close second. The game looks and sounds brutal. Dudes screaming when they tap out, the moves look incredible, the sound of the bell when you hit someone in the nuts or with the bell, they way people just crumble when you ko them, the super quick replays, lots of little things that that all don't seem to be in the post n64 games. The gamecube games are fun but they seem floaty to me and a little too fast. super finishers were the best, and the different fighting styles, if basic, added a lot
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Mar 21, 2023 16:57
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i think the no mercy story modes stink, wm2000 and vpw2 season modes only please. Ill destroy my n64 if i have to fight the apa solo again.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:58
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Suplex Liberace posted:I think virtual pro wrestling 2 is better than no mercy but no mercy is a close second. The game looks and sounds brutal. Dudes screaming when they tap out, the moves look incredible, the sound of the bell when you hit someone in the nuts or with the bell, they way people just crumble when you ko them, the super quick replays, lots of little things that that all don't seem to be in the post n64 games. The gamecube games are fun but they seem floaty to me and a little too fast. Yeah whenever anyone praises No Mercy they’re really praising VPW2. It’s the superior use of the engine.
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Mar 21, 2023 16:59
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I never got to play VPW2 or King of Colosseum II when they were new but I really wish I had, because my wrestling game experience at the time was mostly Smackdown & then Day of Reckoning.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:00
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Suplex Liberace posted:i think the no mercy story modes stink, wm2000 and vpw2 season modes only please. Ill destroy my n64 if i have to fight the apa solo again. I will concede the amount of handicap matches the game throws at you is completely psychotic
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Mar 21, 2023 17:01
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 Not to continue being this guy, but I really liked the wandering around the arena and city in career mode, having to build up clout in an explicit and numerical way to start up the title tree in the PS2 SD games, along with the actual sense of time that having explicit weeks gave you as opposed to MITB, KOTR, and the Rumble all happening simultaneously depending on which tweet you click.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:01
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:super finishers were the best, and the different fighting styles, if basic, added a lot super finishers were cool did another game steal that?
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Mar 21, 2023 17:01
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Suplex Liberace posted:super finishers were cool did another game steal that? I think King Of Coliseum had a similar thing.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:05
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projecthalaxy posted:
see i dislike all that. i just want to play the wrestling not walk around backstage.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:05
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Suplex Liberace posted:see i dislike all that. i just want to play the wrestling not walk around backstage. Ill tell you the same thing i told the undertaker then 
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Mar 21, 2023 17:09
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Suplex Liberace posted:i think the no mercy story modes stink, wm2000 and vpw2 season modes only please. Ill destroy my n64 if i have to fight the apa solo again. The No Mercy story mode is trash especially for the women and especially if you want to 100% things. The sprawling flow chart thing is just the worst. And yeah, gently caress the handicap matches.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:11
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Dacap posted:The control scheme found the right balance between enough variety of moves in each wrestler’s move set to feel like unique characters but not over complicating it to have options for every single kind of scenario that just muddies things up and makes it harder to pick up as a newcomer. I felt like I was really in control of the outcome in those games. Like if I missed a reversal it was because I didn't hit the timing correctly. If I see my opponent go for a strong grapple, I can do a weak grapple to get in a move before them. Without knowing anyone's moveset, I could assume that a strong grapple while pressing Up + A would likely result in a move where I lifted the opponent up, like a powerbomb. Not having all the mini games associated with things also makes it more of a mystery like an actual wrestling match. If you lose a match by pinfall, you don't know if you're going to lose until the count happens. Not because you didn't hit the button during the small window to kick out. Same thing for submissions. In these modern games, so many time I feel like I lost not because my opponent really beat me, but because I failed a QTE mini game.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:13
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While we're airing grievances shout out that one fatal four way cage match with shawn michaels in day of reckoning. Still no idea what the rest of story mode is.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:14
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projecthalaxy posted:Ill tell you the same thing i told the undertaker then listen i paid 1000 dollars for the apa to back me up so ill be staying here and talking about no mercy Heres a lil no mercy pro tip that no one ive ever watched stream this game knows. the doomsday device wins all tag matches.
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Mar 21, 2023 17:16
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I mean if we're talking about menu based story modes, you gotta hail to the king E: to be clear, raw 2 the actual game you play is pretty meh, but raw 2 the act of juggling stamina and overness as you spend your various time segments stealing, trapping, and so forth? That owns. projecthalaxy fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Mar 21, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 17:21
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projecthalaxy posted:While we're airing grievances shout out that one fatal four way cage match with shawn michaels in day of reckoning. Still no idea what the rest of story mode is. Same but DoR II and the cage match against Cena
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Mar 21, 2023 17:31
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All the best modern retro games and remakes are not 1:1 recreations they are able to capture the idea you have of the game in your memory. Good examples of this are shovel knight and dead space remake. If fight forever is able to capture that it will be a huge success.
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Mar 21, 2023 23:12
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One thing I have found charming about the last few years of WWE games is the decision they made to just populate the story modes with a bunch of made up NPC wrestlers and agents. There's something kind of delightfully chintzy about teaming with Baron Blade to fight Dolph and Roode.
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Mar 22, 2023 01:06
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projecthalaxy posted:What's the magic thing that people want to recapture from No Mercy? As much as people do actually enjoy No Mercy I don’t think it’s really a base nostalgic thing, memories of youth, and that. Or at least it’s not mostly that. I think that when we’re kids we’re just generally more patient and accepting of the weird and sometimes obtuse way that games played — we had fun on the terms of the design in ways that are harder to do now, with design advancements developed in the interim that are on the whole, a good thing. Specifically I think it’s that slow pace of gameplay that, because of the age we were and what was available / possible, we embraced and came to love. People remember No Mercy as being “arcade-y”, but beyond being somewhat simpler to play than a lot of recent overtly simulationist takes from 2K, the madcap speed of the legacy YUKES games feels more arcade-y. Even more specifically my sense of NM comes from the way momentum and movement / sound design worked such that there was always this “big fight” feel to everything happening, a sense whether intentional or not of selling. You get hit with a big move and you are going to be on the ground, not doing anything, for awhile. Add to that the way that, even in CAW menus, a basic move will make the whole ring visibly and audibly shake, and you’ve got an incredible big-meaty-men-bumping-meat sim. I think there would be a real aversion to that today. People really reacted poorly to the recent 2K games’ simulationist approach, and it was (still is) overly complex compared to NM’s elegance, but the way that they try to patch up gaps in their design — say, workers attempting to maneuver so that a suplex keeps both of them squarely in the ring, or a supine worker rolling into place to take a top rope move — created a sense of deliberate pace. Conversely, while Fire Pro allows for some big sells (including the kind of dramatic double sells that No Mercy crucially built in specifically when smaller workers pulled off scoop slams on heavies), the matches themselves are pretty chaotic, workers springing up after big moves, things that make it more reminiscent to me of SMACKDOWN than anything else. Add on top of that NM’s momentum system, which was art. Instead of a bar going up to earn special moves and another going down to represent damage taken, they were welded together in one meter that represented both and could go either up or down (though long-term damage tracking wasn’t shown to the player, it was there), and this “rubber banding” created flow and challenge that you don’t really get from any modern game — a flagging worker’s heavy attacks would get reversed by a rallying opponent, so if you were on the ropes you had to play smart and use safer, less dramatic wrestling to wear the opposition down before opening with bigger hits. (though as is often the case in gaming, “smart play” and cheese are hard to differentiate sometimes - many vivid memories of the stupid little tricks I pulled to avoid being overwhelmed in the frequent handicap matches NM threw at the player) These things all seem brilliant in my memory, but honestly, if you had them in a new game today, would ppl love them? I don’t know. The matches you put together tend to be very NXT Paul in a way I don’t think people would like. A key design element like limited windows to pull off finishers seems very cool and bold and contributive to the dramatic shifting of a match, but in multiplayer? People would absolutely loving hate it. Getting pissed off at your best friend on the couch next to you because they weaseled out of your special window was all part of the fun then. Now? Idk. All I can say is that from an animation / pace standpoint, FF does not look particularly like an AKI game, it looks much more in line with the pre-simulationist YUKES games in the (literally, from a codebase standpoint) SMACKDOWN mold. But we don’t really know how it actually plays yet. Man I want that momentum system back so bad. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Mar 22, 2023 |
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Mar 22, 2023 19:18
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As for 2k23, I can at least echo other people in saying that the fact it hasn’t crashed or even frame rate dropped for me yet is actually making me more tense about when it’s going to poo poo the bed. I’m not into programming robots to fight hands-free so I can’t speak to the quality of the new AI system.
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Mar 22, 2023 19:29
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Also I would add that AKI submissions weren’t at all mysterious, they were just a little bit simpler and free of minigames. You just used submissions on a body part until you could hear a guy moaning along with the “guy making scraping noises with his mouth” sound effect, and if you could get a move to three of those sounds (or iirc just one if you really wear them down) without the submission being broken, they tap. YUKES sort of brought this back with locational wear down damage that all moves inflict, but it didn’t create the same defined sense of submission specialist as a distinct play style, and the deeper numerical simulationist cruft meant that in practice, especially against “more resilient” opponents, weardown took much longer and taps came rarely from submissions that weren’t specials.
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Mar 22, 2023 19:38
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Even though there's more to it than nostalgia, it is kind of nuts how the AKI games rode the wave of the Monday Night War. WCW vs. nWo: World Tour was an excellent work in progress in a time when WCW was really starting to annihilate WWF. Revenge was an amazing follow-up that really just represented WCW at its best. That intro is just a blocky highlight reel of everything that made WCW awesome at the time and it fittingly was made right before Warrior showed up. WWF took the lead back and wouldn't you know it, that's where AKI went. WrestleMania 2000 was another step up and No Mercy was the apex, coming out when WWF had all but destroyed the competition and could do no wrong. Ramped up game quality in a time when the Attitude Era was at its climax.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:21
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It also came out at a high water mark for local multiplayer gaming. Your friends were already coming over to play Goldeneye and Perfect Dark (speaking of games that are extremely rickety when played with modern expectations). Halo was not far off.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:38
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Never forget aki developed def jam vendetta and fight for new York which are actually my two favorite wrestling games
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Mar 22, 2023 20:40
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No Mercy isn't even the superior US N64 wrestling game. It's honestly pretty bloated, IMO, and the true best game out of the AKI series in the states is WCW/nWo Revenge.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:54
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Basic Chunnel posted:Also I would add that AKI submissions weren’t at all mysterious, they were just a little bit simpler and free of minigames. You just used submissions on a body part until you could hear a guy moaning along with the “guy making scraping noises with his mouth” sound effect, and if you could get a move to three of those sounds (or iirc just one if you really wear them down) without the submission being broken, they tap. I promise you I'm not alone in literally only learning how they worked in the AKI games from this post. Like, sure, I knew 'do moar submission, make tap out' but the granularity and feedback? Nope. Which is honestly another point they 100% couldn't (and shouldn't) get away with today. And that assessment of the newer games is fascinating, because my experience is it's way too EASY to tap people out with moves that aren't finishers.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:56
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Shard posted:Never forget aki developed def jam vendetta and fight for new York which are actually my two favorite wrestling games vendetta is so loving insane particularly with the delirious finishers for characters. One guy just took you and piledrove you headfirst with his hands into the mat then made the sign of the cross. Another was just using some guy's body as a jump rope then ragdolling their body 10 feet into the air.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51PB_H5vgTk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1sQr0-XntE Shard fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Mar 22, 2023 |
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Mar 22, 2023 22:29
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my favorite forgotten and underrated PS2 wrestling game is Urban Reign
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Mar 22, 2023 22:44
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Alaois posted:my favorite forgotten and underrated PS2 wrestling game is Urban Reign You just unlocked a memory of a really lovely ps2 game state of emergency https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPSETftLf6w
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Mar 23, 2023 00:06
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VPW 2, the AJPW licenced AKI game, wins for better nerdier Puro roster, better frame rate, mma/pride fighting rules, CPU logic (!!!), full entrances, fully functional create-a-belt mode, mask maker, and feeling like a great cap for the series. But it's more generic sandboxy environment, high import costs, and language barrier made it a truly hidden gem for a while until translation patches and things like Freem Edition (which add the American rosters, belts, and a bit of signage to the game) opened it up. It has the Revenge combo system back and you can put it on your CAWs. You know you want to put that poo poo on your CAWs. VPW2 is Love, VPW2 is Life. So I guess the best AKI game is VPW 2: Freem Edition. https://vpw.ajworld.net/vpw2freem/ No Mercy was colorless, had lovely entrances, no logic, and bad framerates. It was a drag compared to how vibrant and alive the others in the series were. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Mar 23, 2023 |
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Mar 23, 2023 00:19
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