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secretly best girl posted:I don't know if anything has put the current state of aggro fandom in perspective for me like missing that comic for years and then being introduced to the podcast Homestuck Made This World recently, and finding out it was basically just an engine for rolling toxic interactions between fans v fans and fans v creators into the world wholesale I'm still a little mad about the Caucasian Controversy tbh
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Mar 23, 2023 05:10
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DoctorWhat posted:trump getting elected absolutely annihilated some people's brains and, feeling powerless in the face of rising fascism, sought out vulnerable targets to blame and offload their misery onto. steven universe, a show about forming a better internal understanding of your lovely parents who don't respect your gender and who are okay with war crimes, was hit especially hard by this, because that wasn't a story 19 year olds home for the holidays with their fascist parents wanted to receive from their escapist children's cartoon. Ah yes, I remember that. The thanksgiving episode has certainly aged like milk in a sewer I must say. I think you're on point that trump in conjunction with Steven Universe's messaging was what drove some people over the edge with it. Especially the implication that dictators can be sad uwu babies too. Nobody wants to see that poo poo with what's going on in the world. But honestly I'd just suggest dropping the show and moving on not making a three hour rant about it.
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Mar 23, 2023 05:20
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That episode specifically coming out for Thanksgiving of 2016 is a case of the worst timing imaginable, for sure. The difference between children and adults watching Steven Universe is that adults are more likely to take the familial as an allegory for the political, whereas children tended to take the political as an allegory for the familial. That latter approach is certainly a better way to go about it if you want to like it.
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Mar 23, 2023 05:25
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It sucks because that episode was definitely made during the "yeah like hell trump's going to win lmao" stage of 2016, which lasted up until election night.
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Mar 23, 2023 05:34
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I rewatched that episode sometime in the last four months and literally have no idea what y'all are talking about. But I didn't start watching SU until the Legs From Here To Homeworld hiatus so I guess I missed the moment. it's animation, wouldn't they have written it in like 2014?
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Mar 23, 2023 06:43
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Sivart13 posted:I rewatched that episode sometime in the last four months and literally have no idea what y'all are talking about. But I didn't start watching SU until the Legs From Here To Homeworld hiatus so I guess I missed the moment. The episode where Greg's cousin Andy drops by and gets mad at the Gems for staying in and modifying his barn. He calls them hippies and illegal aliens, gets invited to a dinner where he's sort of an rear end but then comes to accept the Gems.
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Mar 23, 2023 07:06
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That sounds fundamentally harmless tbh. It might not be the message people want to hear, certainly given the context, but I think there's truth to the idea that racists can be talked around.
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Mar 23, 2023 07:27
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Open Source Idiom posted:That sounds fundamentally harmless tbh. It might not be the message people want to hear, certainly given the context, but I think there's truth to the idea that racists can be talked around. By itself? Sure. But coming off the 2016 election where people had to sit with their insufferable republican relatives? Yeah I could see where it pissed people off. Nobody is in the mood for that with the timing.
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Mar 23, 2023 07:49
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There was a vague feeling starting with that Thanksgiving episode of gradually getting smothered with the pillow of "Tolerate people, no matter what, and work through things and eventually they'll come around!" The show never really seemed to be able to handle the concept of "There is someone who will never back down and you absolutely cannot talk them out of things" without either minimizing the potential for future harm or the option of "Maybe they'll just shoot themselves instead?" It's a kid show, though, I get it, they're not gonna go too hard on severing from Angry Space Rock Aunt and the only time they really touch on it was Steven getting pissed off about never meeting his grandparents in Future as a character moment.
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Mar 23, 2023 08:28
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efb: ^Yeah, I think it tied in with people realizing that the show was going all in on forgiveness. Open Source Idiom posted:That sounds fundamentally harmless tbh. It might not be the message people want to hear, certainly given the context, but I think there's truth to the idea that racists can be talked around. Specifically, the issue was a tone thing, I think. It's been a long time. If I remember right, the turn of the episode is that the uncle makes a little effort to try and talk to the Gems and Steven and all the Gems keep leaving him out and talking about Gem stuff and adventures. He gets weirded out and sad and tries to just bail because it's all too alien and weird for him, and then I think Steven includes him and everybody feels better. Also it's Dave Willis doing his Carl voice. I don't know that that's important but I liked it. Fine for kids stuff  but rubbed some people the wrong way since it seemed to put the emphasis on not alienating bad relatives rather than how to deal with an unaccepting relative. And it was a case of the "bad" relative just sort of coming around on their own and being good at heart. Which, again, kids show. But yeah, it came at just the absolute worst time, and a lot of the fan base overlaid the "try to get along at Thanksgiving" with the bad Thanksgivings they had coming up.
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Mar 23, 2023 08:36
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Circutron posted:There was a vague feeling starting with that Thanksgiving episode of gradually getting smothered with the pillow of "Tolerate people, no matter what, and work through things and eventually they'll come around!" The show never really seemed to be able to handle the concept of "There is someone who will never back down and you absolutely cannot talk them out of things" without either minimizing the potential for future harm or the option of "Maybe they'll just shoot themselves instead?" This encapsulates it perfectly. It's a kids show and it's not like it's fine art but older people especially can easily get nettled about the show's central message. It really did get tiresome after awhile so I get it. I used to be a big fan but eventually I just drifted off over time. The music was excellent though I will say that.
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Mar 23, 2023 08:55
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This Lilly person is a real piece of work. I hate to be associated with her even tenuously as a certified Korra Disliker but what can ya do. Internet loonies gonna internet loony.
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Mar 23, 2023 09:14
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Circutron posted:The show never really seemed to be able to handle the concept of "There is someone who will never back down and you absolutely cannot talk them out of things" Rebecca Sugar posted:“It’s a fantasy show,” she says. “I think it’s a fantasy that no one is truly evil. I don’t know if that’s true in reality, but it’s certainly true in my fantasy. Why wouldn’t it be?”
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Mar 23, 2023 09:33
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Sivart13 posted:would things be better or worse if they just threw this quote in the credits of every episode I mean I don't think that "no one is truly evil" and "there are people so absolutely gone that nothing is going to reorient them from the path that they've chosen" are mutually exclusive, but at that point we're talking about show-writer philosophy and you might as well be wishing for a different Rebecca Sugar. Her choice on how to see things.
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Mar 23, 2023 09:41
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Steven Universe is a bad show because It's boring. And also, the idea that systematic change is possible while the people who created the oppressive system in the first place are allowed to maintain their positions of power is an idea that's at best disingenuous and at worst activity harmful. I thought it was stupid when I saw that happen in Metropolis and I still thought it was stupid again when I saw it happen for a second time with the giant white homage to the Maria robot from Metropolis in Steven Universe. "The Mediator Between the Head and the Hands Must Be the Heart" my rear end, the exploitation of the working class wasn't caused by a 'misunderstanding' it was caused intentionally by those in charge and driven by greed. drat it Fritz Lang, your empty platitudes serve only to maintain a cruel and unhealthy status quo in which the abuse of laborers will continue indefinitely! Nuts to that! Nuts I say! Now I just have to figure out how to say that in a way that takes an hour and a half and film myself saying it, then that sweet YouTube money will finally be mine!
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Mar 23, 2023 10:47
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Sivart13 posted:would things be better or worse if they just threw this quote in the credits of every episode I am sorry I know she is a good person and it’s her creation and most of the fantasy I like is loving 40k or weird other stuff. But Christ that is naive and kinda Annoying. It kinda also rips all the tension out of the show to me as well. I feel like avatar and such handled it better. Like yeah a lot of people do hosed up bad poo poo because they ignorent or hurt but a lot do it because they want to or because they are sociopathic pieces of poo poo. I get it, it’s her choice to view stuff and I can admire her for being so hopeful but I feel like it’s pretty naive. Circutron posted:There was a vague feeling starting with that Thanksgiving episode of gradually getting smothered with the pillow of "Tolerate people, no matter what, and work through things and eventually they'll come around!" The show never really seemed to be able to handle the concept of "There is someone who will never back down and you absolutely cannot talk them out of things" without either minimizing the potential for future harm or the option of "Maybe they'll just shoot themselves instead?" Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Mar 23, 2023 |
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Mar 23, 2023 11:20
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“I understand why a hate group rose up around a show espousing extreme tolerance” is a hell of a take.
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Mar 23, 2023 11:47
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I sort of get the stuff about being overly forgiving but its a dam kids show the message is never going to be "some people are just garbage". Speaking of which I'm going through Future for the first time and I'm finding it just kinda depressing.
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Mar 23, 2023 11:55
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Nikumatic posted:“I understand why a hate group rose up around a show espousing extreme tolerance” is a hell of a take. Lol. I mean I get why anti fans exploded numbers got way bigger near the end.
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Mar 23, 2023 12:01
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socialsecurity posted:I sort of get the stuff about being overly forgiving but its a dam kids show the message is never going to be "some people are just garbage". Speaking of which I'm going through Future for the first time and I'm finding it just kinda depressing. Oh I know. I have just seen enough people lift up the show as some amazing show that should be the template of shows going forward while I agree with parts of that, some of that feels very lol.
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Mar 23, 2023 12:03
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socialsecurity posted:I sort of get the stuff about being overly forgiving but its a dam kids show the message is never going to be "some people are just garbage". Eh, this was the message about Finn's dad in AT.
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Mar 23, 2023 12:18
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Das Boo posted:Eh, this was the message about Finn's dad in AT. And Eddy's brother in the Ed Edd and Eddy movie, and also Mark Beaks from the most recent Ducktales cartoon.
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Mar 23, 2023 13:09
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Not to pile on but same with MLP:FiM, where (particularly in the first season which was more explicitly focused on didactic how-to life lessons for kids than it later became) there were several episodes whose message was explicitly "some people are just assholes and you shouldn't feel bad about cutting them out of your life". I was downright shocked to see that and it was one of the reasons I paid attention.
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Mar 23, 2023 13:41
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The demand that Steven Universe didactically instruct tweens to blow up pipelines and kill their conservative parents was maybe not fair, as cool as a show like that would be. The insinuation that SU was pro-fascist propaganda was completely deranged. It was a personal story Sugar was telling about their fantasies about conflict resolution and human connection.
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Mar 23, 2023 14:34
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I’m all for inclusivity and understanding of others but I really feel that some of the people that are into kids shows that hard may need their asses kicked for their own good.
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Mar 23, 2023 14:49
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From the very start, Steven Universe was going to be a show about love and friendship. There was no real change in there. Maybe you could look at the place that codified that as Catch and Release, when the overarching "villain" for the last season agreed to work with the Crystal Gems because she was scared and helpless, and that eventually led to her joining their side officially. Or maybe it was Ocean Gem, where the villain for that episode just changed her ways after talking it out. Or maybe it was Monster Buddies, where Steven successfully befriended one of the many monsters that the Gems had been fighting, proving there was some path to hope in there. Maybe the particular way the show ended was weird, but it fit the direction the whole thing had been going from the start. Maybe even the show went on "too long" so that people ended up in a separate demographic and their political views changed. I get the sense that Goons on average are way more into  ing all their relations and former friends than most people, so that's gonna be a pretty rare moral compared to "try to get along on Thanksgiving." And expecting shows to end in violent Revolution is also gonna be rare, since that's a fairly marginal political stance in America, due to its lack of relevance for actually getting things done in modern American politics.The one show I was really disappointed in on a similar level though was Star vs. the Forces of Evil, since it very much did want to end in a way that would somehow overthrow the social order, but instead of doing something more on a political level (I was kinda hoping for them trying to give up on monarchy), they instead did something totally out of left field with confusing implications. Although I guess from a perspective, just killing the magical high commission and getting rid of magic, dissolving what maintained the old order with no concern for what happens next seems to fit the bill.
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Mar 23, 2023 15:10
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Data Graham posted:Not to pile on but same with MLP:FiM, where (particularly in the first season which was more explicitly focused on didactic how-to life lessons for kids than it later became) there were several episodes whose message was explicitly "some people are just assholes and you shouldn't feel bad about cutting them out of your life". I’ll say it as someone way too late to the thatparty(and only watched 10 or so after some of my discord friends recommended it ) that show is basically Bluey but fantasy for 10 year olds. One of the lessons was straight up “yeah I read about this place while here and before so it didn’t scare the piss out of me, reading about new things makes them not scary” which is honestly a good message. It’s a cute show and some of the fan stuff is genuinely good. Like this fake episode about tax loopholes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLGlrY7cooY too bad about the perverts.
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Mar 23, 2023 15:41
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DoctorWhat posted:The demand that Steven Universe didactically instruct tweens to blow up pipelines and kill their conservative parents was maybe not fair, as cool as a show like that would be. The insinuation that SU was pro-fascist propaganda was completely deranged. It was a personal story Sugar was telling about their fantasies about conflict resolution and human connection. Look, if it doesn’t end with Stephen turning his uncles lungs into amber and then watching him slowly die while laughing and saying “gently caress you chud” then clearly it’s the worst. Look I am overly harsh. It’s a good show just will never be my thing. But I never thought it was pro fascist, just kinda naive. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Mar 23, 2023 |
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Mar 23, 2023 15:45
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I’ll say it as someone way too late to the thatparty(and only watched 10 or so after some of my discord friends recommended it ) that show is basically Bluey but fantasy for 10 year olds. One of the lessons was straight up “yeah I read about this place while here and before so it didn’t scare the piss out of me, reading about new things makes them not scary” which is honestly a good message. It’s a cute show and some of the fan stuff is genuinely good. Like this fake episode about tax loopholes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLGlrY7cooY too bad about the perverts. Lol incredible. The AI deepfake voices are a trip, they're 100% dead-on recognizable but the intonation is all over the place. I guess that's going to be a thing from now on though. The fan creations over the past decade have been on an unbelievable scale—stuff like the above, original music, all kinds of perfectly good non-weird art. Obviously this isn't the place to start a meme derail but I can't resist, this one is goon-made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQXQrPdwego Data Graham fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Mar 23, 2023 |
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Mar 23, 2023 16:23
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Data Graham posted:Lol incredible. The AI deepfake voices are a trip, they're 100% dead-on recognizable but the intonation is all over the place. I guess that's going to be a thing from now on though. Oh yeah, been trying the HOI4 mod, who knew equestria was just the austro Hungarian empire and it just implodes.
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Mar 23, 2023 16:30
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My main reasons for not liking it anymore kinda stem from personal poo poo having to do with an abusive family member. The total forgiveness message really grates for me because of that. poo poo I can't even watch Encanto because it strikes WAY too close to home for me.
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Mar 23, 2023 17:42
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On one hand: I do retroactively appreciate that Avatar the Last Airbender was committed to the message that Zuko's birth family loving sucks and never really tries to redeem them. On the other hand: I'm pretty sure if Dragonball Z aired in 2016-2020 huge swathes of the internet would burn itself to the ground over Vegeta's redemption arc.
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Mar 23, 2023 18:05
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mycot posted:On one hand: I do retroactively appreciate that Avatar the Last Airbender was committed to the message that Zuko's birth family loving sucks and never really tries to redeem them. I mean vegeta only kills bug people and nappa, I think nappa does most of the killing on earth (plus death is meaningless there)
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Mar 23, 2023 18:29
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Goku friends *everyone* He becomes friends with a demon named Piccolo at the end of the original series. At the end of Z he becomes friends with Buu. The only enemy they actually killed was Frieza. I mean he comes back a few times with dragonballs but he never really gets redeemed he always backstabs Goku. Going back further in Dragonball I think Tao is similar in he comes back and still evil.
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Mar 23, 2023 18:33
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mycot posted:On one hand: I do retroactively appreciate that Avatar the Last Airbender was committed to the message that Zuko's birth family loving sucks and never really tries to redeem them. "In this 5 hour video essay, I will explore why e: lol in the process of typing that joke post I thought of how it's bizarrely like Steven Universe in that Goku shows mercy to most all of his villains... even if they end up rejecting it and get killed. Maybe that was the solution the whole time, the Diamonds should have been annihilated violently after the first time they rejected change. e2: drat beaten to the punch TwoPair fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Mar 23, 2023 |
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Mar 23, 2023 18:33
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Remember when Yamcha was a credible threat?
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Mar 23, 2023 18:51
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There's probably something to it that if you want to stick with a fantasy about radical forgiveness you probably shouldn't throw around a bunch of thinly veiled LGBT-themed oppression and war in the backstory if you're not willing to wrestle with it. DBZ can get away with it a little because death isn't exactly a big deal when people keep getting brought back. Doesn't excuse adults getting way too invested in it, to be clear. But I think there was a factor that some of the older teens/adults that got invested in it got drawn in by the worldbuilding and hints of a bigger, kind of dark backstory. And then, you know, it's a kids show after all. Clearly they should stick to Animation for Adults  .
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Mar 23, 2023 18:52
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mycot posted:On the other hand: I'm pretty sure if Dragonball Z aired in 2016-2020 huge swathes of the internet would burn itself to the ground over Vegeta's redemption arc. Vegeta doesn't get a anything close to a redemption arc until Buu, and even then just barely. Vegeta is allowed to live because the only person capable of killing him isn't interested in doing so since Goku wants him around so they can continue to punch each other and the rest of earth just has to sort of grudgingly accept that. TwoPair posted:e: lol in the process of typing that joke post I thought of how it's bizarrely like Steven Universe in that Goku shows mercy to most all of his villains... even if they end up rejecting it and get killed. Maybe that was the solution the whole time, the Diamonds should have been annihilated violently after the first time they rejected change. No, Goku prefers to keeps his enemies alive because he wants to be able to continue doing violence to them. He's compulsively driven to fight in the same way he's driven to eat. This is made aggressively clear in the Japanese dub, but the English dub changed things to make his motives seem more heroic.
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Mar 23, 2023 19:04
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Warbird posted:I’m all for inclusivity and understanding of others but I really feel that some of the people that are into kids shows that hard may need their asses kicked for their own good. While I wasn't a fan myself, I remember a video of some Brony watching a premiere episode surrounded by kids and their parents at a convention and after what felt like every line of dialogue would just yell "HOLY loving poo poo!" and just so on and so forth while everybody around him is deeply uncomfortable. Finally I think one of the actual voice actors asked him to stop.
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Mar 23, 2023 19:11
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:There's probably something to it that if you want to stick with a fantasy about radical forgiveness you probably shouldn't throw around a bunch of thinly veiled LGBT-themed oppression and war in the backstory if you're not willing to wrestle with it. DBZ can get away with it a little because death isn't exactly a big deal when people keep getting brought back. yeah, like i think the core lessons of stephen are good, they just dont really work outside a kids show where you "stack the deck" by making all the villians UWU sad types. but again, its a kid show.
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Mar 23, 2023 19:14
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