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A 50S RAYGUN posted:sounds like your friend is just really bad at necromunda Nah he's coming at the game from a place of having played games like warmachine, where using the rules to maximum effect is how you play. Like that game is built around that basic assumption, it's very competitive and while I won't claim it's perfectly balanced (I haven't played), it's clearly intended that you go hard and minmax because the other players will too and you'll just lose and lose and lose if you don't. It's hard to make an adjustment from that, to a game where the basic expectation is that your focus is on cool little models you paint, the stories they evoke, and the cool terrain and setting, and then maybe there's also a game going on sort of but just roll a pile of dice and it'll sort itself out. If you forget half the rules that's OK too. Just have a beer and laugh. Another thing maybe going on here is that back in the day the lads at GW UK were working in an environment where you'd probably be playing at a game club or especially your local GW store which are in every major town in the country, and so you'd have a lot of opponents to match up with. Playing in a group of just three was of course possible and surely happened plenty, but I don't think that was the default assumption. So if you have one matchup where you always lose, no worries, play someone else or buy some new models and build out a new gang!
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Mar 22, 2023 18:28
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Imo your ragpicker themed gang shouldnt expect to win up against SWAT teams and steroid gangs all to much
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Mar 22, 2023 18:41
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Ah yeah, the poisonous legacy of Privateer Press strikes again.
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Mar 22, 2023 18:43
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EdsTeioh posted:Ah yeah, the poisonous legacy of Privateer Press strikes again. privateer press didn't invent the idea of playing to win in wargames, and GW's narrative games still fall apart when someone randomly blunders into a heavily optimal or suboptimal strategy without even trying very hard to win. that basic assumption that everyone is trying their best to win (within the bounds of basic courtesy) is pretty common to every current GW game except necromunda, for one
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Mar 22, 2023 19:04
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No they didn't, but they absolutely based their company around that mindset and pushed it hard. Even GW got caught up in that dumb poo poo (remember 'ArdBoys?). There's also a big difference between "playing to win" and "winning at all costs."
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Mar 22, 2023 19:15
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EdsTeioh posted:No they didn't, but they absolutely based their company around that mindset and pushed it hard. Even GW got caught up in that dumb poo poo (remember 'ArdBoys?). There's also a big difference between "playing to win" and "winning at all costs." it's just baffling to blame privateer press for a problem in this edition of necromunda that was also a problem in the previous edition of necromunda, as well as gorkamorka, mordheim, and multiple intervening editions of blood bowl. the problem with these games is not a moral defect in the hearts of the players. the problem with these games is that the player who goes 5-0 gets a stronger team than the one who goes 0-5, above and beyond whatever differences in skill or luck those players might have. even if every gang were perfectly balanced at league start and every option were equally well-balanced (and holy poo poo they are not), this would still cause problems.
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Mar 22, 2023 19:32
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Cease to Hope posted:the problem with these games is that the player who goes 5-0 gets a stronger team than the one who goes 0-5, above and beyond whatever differences in skill or luck those players might have Not familiar with the games, but sounds like the easiest fix would be giving more rewards to the losers than the winners, a built-in catch-up mechanic
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Mar 22, 2023 19:53
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It's definitely better to treat necromunda like an RPG than a competitive game, the rules just aren't newrly solid enough for the latter.
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Mar 22, 2023 19:54
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Serperoth posted:Not familiar with the games, but sounds like the easiest fix would be giving more rewards to the losers than the winners, a built-in catch-up mechanic some people think this sort of thing is infuriating, how dare you reward people for losing!!! But also like, it's just a golf handicap or football relegation or boxing in your own weight class, competitive sports have recognized this concept for centuries. Another approach is to try and give power rankings to different teams, like in bloodbowl we used to basically do that, so if you were gonna play a joke team like the halflings that was fine but you would expect to always lose against rats or lizards and some kind soul would warn you of that before you invested heavily in the minis.
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Mar 22, 2023 19:58
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My very first White Dwarf circa 25 years ago had a bat rep where the overlevelled Escher team got whipped after the opposing gang was seconded to a NPC squad of Arbites. I'd give the underdog a Fists recruitment sergeant.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:09
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That was my first White Dwarf too! And the bat rep that got me into Necromunda, for that matter. Great issue.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:15
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I think adjusting stuff for the losers is explicitly part of the rules of Necromunda (as in, they say you should do it, they might not do a great job of telling someone how to do it, which is an issue), the arbitrator is supposed to be a thing, a player who either isn't playing or everyone trusts to run things properly if they are playing. They're supposed to adjust stuff so that people who are consistently losing are still able to participate and have some sort of chance so they can still have fun. It's kind of a collaborative role playing game thing on the meta level, you're playing to win the individual matches but the goal of the campaign and those matches is for everyone to have fun, losing every week won't be fun, so it's on everyone to sorta work out how to make that work I guess. At least that's the impression I've gotten from people who are very into Necromunda. So like you could have some patrons or hangers on join up with a losing gang with some sort of binding contract, have some sort of storyline reason for them to have an advantage in the next match they play like they have inside info on the place being robbed so they get some advantages like door access or starting in a good position, maybe just straight up have some extra money, a crate of weapons show up mysteriously from aforementioned patrons as a more hands off thing maybe or things like that. I suspect that is anathema for some people though which is fair enough I guess.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:26
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Cease to Hope posted:privateer press didn't invent the idea of playing to win in wargames, and GW's narrative games still fall apart when someone randomly blunders into a heavily optimal or suboptimal strategy without even trying very hard to win. I agree on both fronts. Privateer Press were to some degree responding to a perceived gap in the market, that wargamers wanted to play for the win and not be bothered with nagging about narrative play or not being a dick to the other player. Actually, look at the new player questions commonly asked online for a reflection of how most players do approach games: what is optimal? how can I gain an advantage over my opponents? What trap units should be avoided? People do like to win, and while they will have an idea of what looks cool or fires their imaginations, they definitely also want to know they've got a fair shot or better at winning the game on the table.
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Mar 22, 2023 20:39
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!Klams posted:/Edit: Unless you mean the Escher guy? He's exclusively rolled ones on all the rolls where he needs anything but one. He bought a plasma rifle and it did no damage and ran out of ammo immediately. Then the same with some melta gun, he's rolled death on every single out of action roll. It's really dumb, he's just had zero big rolls go his way. lol
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Mar 22, 2023 21:22
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I ended up losing a KT match today: my Scouts v Intercessors. His Sarge hot-plasma’d himself more than I put wounds into him. Sniper Sarge is the way to go with two partners, but I think my mistake was keeping my rocket launchers together because he just avoided that section of the board and eventually worked his way to them. I think next game I’ll try out a Heavy Bolter
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Mar 22, 2023 21:27
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Serperoth posted:Not familiar with the games, but sounds like the easiest fix would be giving more rewards to the losers than the winners, a built-in catch-up mechanic while i agree with this in the abstract, you'd have to fundamentally rethink what the rewards are, since they are conceptually the proceeds of your crimes/match victory, and the setbacks largely come in the form of your dudes dying from their injuries thebardyspoon posted:I think adjusting stuff for the losers is explicitly part of the rules of Necromunda (as in, they say you should do it, they might not do a great job of telling someone how to do it, which is an issue), the arbitrator is supposed to be a thing, a player who either isn't playing or everyone trusts to run things properly if they are playing. They're supposed to adjust stuff so that people who are consistently losing are still able to participate and have some sort of chance so they can still have fun. ya. the ways GW fails to do this well could fill multiple effortposts though
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Mar 22, 2023 21:49
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EdsTeioh posted:There's also a big difference between "playing to win" and "winning at all costs." And that’s a wholly subjective line that pushes game balance to the players instead of the people you paid to write the rules. A well designed game doesn’t rely on self correcting player behavior. You can enjoy a badly balanced game but don’t blame players for doing what’s in the framework of the game.
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Mar 22, 2023 22:18
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Cease to Hope posted:while i agree with this in the abstract, you'd have to fundamentally rethink what the rewards are, since they are conceptually the proceeds of your crimes/match victory, and the setbacks largely come in the form of your dudes dying from their injuries You get to big for your britches and the Imperial Fists decide your gang would make excellent recruits. Good luck running away from the recruitment officer.
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Mar 22, 2023 22:54
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I always thought when someone "wins" necromunda, the higher ups in the houses recognize thier gang and they get elevated to a better position
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Mar 22, 2023 22:59
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Hihohe posted:I always thought when someone "wins" necromunda, the higher ups in the houses recognize thier gang and they get elevated to a better position That's who they hire as security
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Mar 22, 2023 23:02
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god drat privateer press for inventing “wanting to win games” and getting us all kicked out of the Garden of Eden
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Mar 23, 2023 00:58
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Crackbone posted:And that’s a wholly subjective line that pushes game balance to the players instead of the people you paid to write the rules. Right, nobody complains about chess players who "play to win at all costs" (unless that cost is getting advice from a chess program via your vibrating butt plug, of course). What I loved about Warmachine in its heyday was just that -- the rule set was tight, the player base was competitive but friendly, and you felt like you were playing a clean, strategic game like chess. Everyone knew you were playing to win, and there was good sportsmanship.
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Mar 23, 2023 01:02
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Muir posted:What I loved about Warmachine in its heyday was just that -- the rule set was tight, the player base was competitive but friendly, and you felt like you were playing a clean, strategic game like chess. Everyone knew you were playing to win, and there was good sportsmanship. Ironically, Asmodee dumpstered the FFG design team who actually understood the game and forced it on AMG, some of whom I've heard described as "the people that ruined Warmachine" but I'm in no position to judge that. Anyway, I'm excited for the Epic announcement in a few hours time 
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Mar 23, 2023 01:19
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:god drat privateer press for inventing “wanting to win games” and getting us all kicked out of the Garden of Eden Adam, try this fruit - I found it over in the tree of PAGE FIVE, BITCH! PLAY LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR! BRASS BALLS!
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Mar 23, 2023 06:34
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moths posted:Adam, try this fruit - I found it over in the tree of PAGE FIVE, BITCH! PLAY LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR! BRASS BALLS! i'm glad i don't play any games full of cringeworthy poo poo
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Mar 23, 2023 06:35
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To be fair, nobody plays Warmachine.
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Mar 23, 2023 06:44
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moths posted:To be fair, nobody plays Warmachine. the privateer press tangent came in the middle of a discussion about mordheim
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Mar 23, 2023 06:58
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Are you trying to remind me that Broheim exists? Because I've successfully purged most of that Axe-scented cringe from memory.
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Mar 23, 2023 07:03
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The gently caress are you people talking about privateer press garbage when there is new underworlds https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/23/carve-a-path-to-the-heart-of-the-wyrdhollow-in-the-latest-warhammer-underworlds-box-set/ and new kill team with votan vs beastmen https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/23/abandon-ship-kin-and-beastmen-flee-the-death-of-a-space-hulk-in-kill-team-gallowfall/
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Mar 23, 2023 07:39
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Yeah I don’t care about the stormcast very much but the Tzeentch stuff is dope. I’ve really been enjoying learning and playing Underworlds (I have Gnarlwood and I’ve been using Sons of Velmorn), and I love how fast the game plays.
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Mar 23, 2023 07:49
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hoiyes posted:Anyway, I'm excited for the Epic announcement in a few hours time Lol and so forth
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Mar 23, 2023 08:01
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VOTAN KILL TEAM LITERALLY DEEP ROCK GALACTIC
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Mar 23, 2023 08:02
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Covermeinsunshine posted:The gently caress are you people talking about privateer press garbage when there is new underworlds it hadn't been announced yet! i am enjoying the continuing move towards making chaos into a bunch of inexplicable weirdoes
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Mar 23, 2023 09:41
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New Killteam looks meh, lumps of orange and some okay beastpeople New Lion model is insanely cool, even though I’m not hyped on his return/ whitewashed lore
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Mar 23, 2023 10:19
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Muir posted:Right, nobody complains about chess players who "play to win at all costs" (unless that cost is getting advice from a chess program via your vibrating butt plug, of course). What I loved about Warmachine in its heyday was just that -- the rule set was tight, the player base was competitive but friendly, and you felt like you were playing a clean, strategic game like chess. Everyone knew you were playing to win, and there was good sportsmanship. I mean, this is exactly it. I played a bunch of Warmachine, and, accusations of 'minmaxing' just don't hold, in the same way they just wouldn't hold against chess players. When all the rules are crystal clear, and all the various abilities and threat ranges of the models are crystal clear, where you usually roll two dice (so can expect 7s) but can spend a resource to roll an extra dice (and expect 10s) means that you can plan, and you can mitigate odds where it matters, and so the better player wins 99.999% of the time. You'd have to have a statistically absolutely aberrant game for the worse player to win. So, there are certain schools of thought that that is a better game. The thing is, is it as fun? Well, clearly not, otherwise it would be much more popular. Part of the draw of GW is that, you can kinda dream up a cool army / squad / dude or whatever, and the rules will be ok with you putting it together, with you kitbashing cool guys etc. The hobby aspect of it is superlative. Warmachine is loving dire in that regard. But, I mean, look, here in this very thread we're discussing ways that maybe you could do a catchup mechanic in Necromunda. Like, the draw of Necromunda is that it's a slow grow campaign, and there aren't really rules for how you slow grow your campaign. There kind of are, but a very basic one of them is something that we're debating. And this is after many, many rule updates. There's just so much of it that ISN'T there. The rules that are there are all awful. I mean, there's that new 'Lady Hellmawr kills her party guests' free expansion, and there's a new item in that with the rules, "Ignore all rules / traits that would modify your armour save". Ignoring the obvious paradox this creates with itself, it's just utterly baffling what this means in almost any context. That's a new rule, fresh out the gate, makes no sense. There's a rule in Necromunda about petitioning the houses for a benefit, but then there doesn't seem to be any explanation about how / when this happens. I mean, I've really enjoyed our time with Necromunda, it's been really fun. But it isn't looking very sustainable. We tried to play again yesterday, and honestly, having a GW virgin ask (honest) questions about it really does start to make it feel stupid. "It seems to my like just buying plasma guns on all my guys would be the best thing to do though" "Yeah but don't do that" "...? What should I buy?" "Whatever you want" "Ok, well it looks like Ablative Armor is the best armour, I'll get that for all my guys" "...Don't do that either" "...Well what should I buy?" "Whatever you think is cool." "I don't think any of this stuff is cooler than the other stuff". ...oh, ok, yeah, well then the game doesn't work at all. Hmm. I can't really tell him to "Find suboptimal stuff cool" as a rule for playing Necromunda. Like, he's not being obtuse. It's a totally fair point. And then, yeah, the fact that there's one team can't ever beat me, ever. Never. It is impossible. Sure, ok, so having more players would make this happen 'less', and give us a way to play games that might work better. But not really. It just fundamentally doesn't work, and starts to border even less on role playing, and more on just playing 'lets pretend' and going "pew pew pew!". At one point I accidentally arrested (captured) 25% points worth of my opponents army. Someone in this thread even said, "That's the cost of putting all your eggs in one basket", but I mean, I'm saying to this new guy "Don't play optimally, play what's cool", while not just fitting all my guys with seismic guns for that very reason, but then turning to this other player and saying "Well, you played what you thought was cool, but that means you no longer ever get to win". I know this sounds kinda harsh, and like I'm making GBS threads on it. And I guess I sort of am, but it's only because I'm disappointed that the fun we had kind of has to come to an end, everything else feels like grasping at straws. It's made us all wanna go back to playing Warmachine, honestly. Is Kill Team any better?
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Mar 23, 2023 13:06
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Called that this last box would have Votann, never would have guessed they'd be paired with Beastmen though. Bringing jet packs and brass knuckles on a salvage mission is a huge flex.
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Mar 23, 2023 13:26
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40k Beastman is the kind of nonsense that will 100% get me to buy a squad even if I have no interest in ever playing a GW game aside from MESBG ever again.
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Mar 23, 2023 13:33
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The beastmen are a little too fantasy for me at first glance, but watching the video, they do look better than the static photos. The last two boxes haven't been for me, but I think Gallowfall's got me.
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Mar 23, 2023 14:21
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<shrug> guess y'all's scenes are just the polar opposites of mine. Before PP cratered, poo poo was like a high school gym around here.
EdsTeioh fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Mar 23, 2023 |
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Mar 23, 2023 14:39
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EdsTeioh posted:<shrug> guess y'all's scenes are just the polar opposites of mine. Before PP cratered, poo poo was like a high school gum around here. Is that supposed to be a good or bad thing It was a pretty toxic group in my area back in the day Improbable Lobster fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Mar 23, 2023 |
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Mar 23, 2023 14:41
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