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There are lots of examples in wrestling the same as anything else of unremarkable performers being terrific coaches (or bookers, or agents, or etc.) and great performers being subpar coaches or trainers. Bryan Danielson was 'trained' by a great performer (Shawn Michaels) who apparently wasn't much of a coach/trainer, and Danielson admitted he was a bad trainer in the ROH days. At least back in the ROH days, Danielson seemed to fall into the same issue that Ted Williams, one of the greatest hitters of all time did, which was being so naturally great at the thing they were great at that they weren't very good at explaining or coaching someone who was struggling at the thing. "Just... don't swing at bad pitches and make sure you make good contact with pitches you can hit" is great if you are preternaturally good at picking which balls to swing at and how to hit them well, less useful if you're struggling. There are always exceptions who are good at both, but to use the current example it's entirely possible (probable even) that Madison Rayne had to grind and focus super hard to get "okay" at wrestling, which probably taught her lessons that someone who immediately took to it never did. And some people just don't really have great personal/socioemotional skills to teach, others do! * Okay doublechecking things, Ted Williams improved the Senators' batting in his brief managerial career with them and his Hitting Bible has been helpful to people when he wrote everything out in a book. I know there are anecdotal stories of him doing spring training coaching later in life (him and some other hall of famers) where their tutoring basically boiled down to "... be better at baseball?  "
Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Mar 18, 2023 |
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Mar 18, 2023 21:17
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Danielson seems to do best when he is training people like himself, who are 100% dedicated to the craft and have the self-discipline to want to work beyond what is required. When 20 students are standing there looking at him blankly and seemingly just want to be told what to do, that is when he struggles. There is a scene about it in the Wrestling Road Diaries. But he seems to be doing better with coaching in AEW, we know that Jade Cargill and others have worked with him a lot.
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Mar 18, 2023 21:49
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Bix has a good story about thi: https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/1361472158782943234
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Mar 18, 2023 22:13
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I can't imagine watching a Manami Toyota match and thinking at any point "yes, this is something that can be taught"
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Mar 18, 2023 22:16
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Like, I have to imagine guys like Fenix and Ospreay would be terrible coaches, as so much of what makes them good is based on them being absurdly athletic in the right ways for how they work.
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Mar 19, 2023 02:28
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Edge & Christian posted:There are lots of examples in wrestling the same as anything else of unremarkable performers being terrific coaches (or bookers, or agents, or etc.) and great performers being subpar coaches or trainers. Danielson's students don't agree on Bryan not being much of a trainer and Shawn did a good job with his first crop of students.
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Mar 19, 2023 02:35
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Think Ospreay trained AZM for a bit and she praised him. She's likely another preternaturally gifted athletic person, though
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Mar 19, 2023 02:39
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Chuck Taylor trained Ricochet
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Mar 19, 2023 02:42
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MassRafTer posted:Danielson's students don't agree on Bryan not being much of a trainer and Shawn did a good job with his first crop of students.
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Mar 19, 2023 02:43
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I imagine maybe it's a far end of the Dunning-Kruger curve thing? Danielson and Michaels are good enough that they underestimate how good they are?
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Mar 19, 2023 02:50
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Edge & Christian posted:Interesting, I haven't heard Bryan's students talk about him much. I don't even remember who he trained, like Rhett Titus and Shane Hagadorn and that group of people? He trained the second and third classes. The second class with Pelle Primeau started with Punk but then Bryan came on when Punk left. The third class with Rhett started with Bryan and then had Aries when he took over from Bryan. Pelle speaks very highly of him, and those early classes had some very solid workers. They didn't get a lot of chances, and there's some interesting bits of indie politics that in part explain that. Gaz-L posted:I imagine maybe it's a far end of the Dunning-Kruger curve thing? Danielson and Michaels are good enough that they underestimate how good they are? Danielson is a pretty humble guy.
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Mar 19, 2023 03:15
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Pylons posted:Chuck Taylor trained Ricochet I think you’ll find Ricochet learned everything he knows at the WWE Performance Centre including his signature moves, the Just Happy To Be Here and the Catering Seatfiller
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Mar 19, 2023 03:31
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Ricochet used to the be the junior that was mentioned in the same awed tones as Fergil Devitt and Kota Ibushi. Now look at where they all are.
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Mar 19, 2023 04:36
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It will never cease to amuse me that Jack Evans was trained by Bryan Alvarez
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Mar 19, 2023 08:13
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Lamuella posted:It will never cease to amuse me that Jack Evans was trained by Bryan Alvarez one of my favorite exchanges from a old Bryan and Vinny TNA review was Vinny saying Jack Evans' gimmick was "being the whitest man alive" and Bryan said "of course it is, I trained him"
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Mar 19, 2023 08:37
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Lamuella posted:It will never cease to amuse me that Jack Evans was trained by Bryan Alvarez this is nearly as devastating of a revelation as finding out that alex abrahantes trained in the hart dungeon
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Mar 19, 2023 10:13
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Lamuella posted:It will never cease to amuse me that Jack Evans was trained by Bryan Alvarez It was a good deal for both sides. After all, dealing with Jack Evans' way of never stopping talking allowed Bryan to later deal with Meltzer's deal of never stopping talking.
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Mar 19, 2023 13:07
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I started going through ROH's back catalog, and while I've already seen a bunch of great contests the one I'm most impressed by thus far is the Dragongate 6-Man (Do FIXER vs. Blood Generation) from Supercard of Honor 2006. The ending stretch is maybe the craziest five minutes of professional wrestling I've ever seen, so much incredible poo poo happening at such a ridiculous pace that commentary goes silent rather than try to keep up. Crowd was going absolutely nuts at all the near falls, cheering after each one because they didn't want to see the match end (as evidenced by the "please don't stop" chant). A magnificent spotfest of the highest order.
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Mar 20, 2023 22:19
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IIRC that is pretty much considered one of the matches that created the 'modern' indie style
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Mar 21, 2023 01:13
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its a true paradigm shift for the usa
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Mar 21, 2023 02:10
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Barry Bluejeans posted:I started going through ROH's back catalog, and while I've already seen a bunch of great contests the one I'm most impressed by thus far is the Dragongate 6-Man (Do FIXER vs. Blood Generation) from Supercard of Honor 2006. The ending stretch is maybe the craziest five minutes of professional wrestling I've ever seen, so much incredible poo poo happening at such a ridiculous pace that commentary goes silent rather than try to keep up. Crowd was going absolutely nuts at all the near falls, cheering after each one because they didn't want to see the match end (as evidenced by the "please don't stop" chant). A magnificent spotfest of the highest order. The other matches from that weekend involving the Dragon Gate talent are all really cool.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:48
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Watch the ROH tent shows. They’re all awesome and gave us Ring Crew Express.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:50
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Barry Bluejeans posted:I started going through ROH's back catalog, and while I've already seen a bunch of great contests the one I'm most impressed by thus far is the Dragongate 6-Man (Do FIXER vs. Blood Generation) from Supercard of Honor 2006. The ending stretch is maybe the craziest five minutes of professional wrestling I've ever seen, so much incredible poo poo happening at such a ridiculous pace that commentary goes silent rather than try to keep up. Crowd was going absolutely nuts at all the near falls, cheering after each one because they didn't want to see the match end (as evidenced by the "please don't stop" chant). A magnificent spotfest of the highest order.
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Mar 21, 2023 12:58
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That was a neat read, thanks! I've been referring to Cagematch ratings to determine what to watch, so while I knew the match was highly regarded I had no idea it was so influential. coconono posted:Watch the ROH tent shows. They’re all awesome and gave us Ring Crew Express. MassRafTer posted:The other matches from that weekend involving the Dragon Gate talent are all really cool. Thank you for the recommendations!
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Mar 21, 2023 13:31
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nT42zpcMko
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Mar 21, 2023 14:15
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This is up there with the King Kong Bundy Headstart and Andre The Giant Honeycombs commercials in the pantheon of great wrestler commercials.
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Mar 21, 2023 14:20
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Bless that business owner for taking a bump
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Mar 21, 2023 15:11
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Mar 21, 2023 16:57
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oh man cheeseburger's gonna be a champ
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Mar 21, 2023 17:07
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MassRafTer posted:He trained the second and third classes. The second class with Pelle Primeau started with Punk but then Bryan came on when Punk left. The third class with Rhett started with Bryan and then had Aries when he took over from Bryan. Pelle speaks very highly of him, and those early classes had some very solid workers. They didn't get a lot of chances, and there's some interesting bits of indie politics that in part explain that. Curious about that because it was always weird to me that ROH trained guys only ever showed up on the lower card of ROH shows and no where else (maybe Grizzly showed up on chikara once idk). I always assumed it was just cause they were super mid but they’re also on cards with the best in the world so how else would they look?
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Mar 21, 2023 18:17
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Man’s name is Cheese Burger
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Mar 21, 2023 21:15
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World famous cheese burger
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Mar 22, 2023 17:41
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cheesed burger
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Mar 22, 2023 20:40
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Going back to the training thing for a second, the same is true about other sports. Great players are actually more often than not terrible coaches and most legendary coaches played at some level or another, but were usually pretty mediocre.
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Mar 23, 2023 19:41
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Going back to the training thing for a second, the same is true about other sports. Great players are actually more often than not terrible coaches and most legendary coaches played at some level or another, but were usually pretty mediocre. I’ve known for at least 10 years that Van Hammer trained the Briscoes and my brain still can’t process it properly
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Mar 23, 2023 23:42
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Aussie Open v Sydal and Daniels is really great, hope it comes across on the show
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Mar 23, 2023 23:58
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I really like Lady Frost.
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Mar 24, 2023 00:37
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Lady Frost is so cool
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Mar 24, 2023 00:38
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Penguin Patrol posted:Lady Frost is so cool I see what you did there.
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Mar 24, 2023 00:40
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Writer Cath posted:I see what you did there. i didn't even do it on purpose!
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Mar 24, 2023 00:42
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