[Ukraine] ahegao to the poles

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] ahegao to the poles

What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed.
🦋	15	3.71%
🦇	115	28.47%
🪰	12	2.97%
🐦	67	16.58%
dragonfly	94	23.27%
🦟	14	3.47%
🐝	87	21.53%
Total:	404 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Frosted Flake posted:

You should ignore Oryx and ISW but those are the most common sources other than unnamed officials.

honestly the ISW and british intelligence getting cited without reservation makes me more upset than oryx. oryx has a method which you can sort of accept. it's a very *generous* method, but it is more or less consistent and basically transparent.

the ISW is an outright neocon think-tank, and british intelligence has been basically making stuff up for over a year now. there ought to be at least a sentence or some small caveat when citing them. both are state-affiliated entities with a clear interest in manipulating the discourse around the war. it's incredibly irritating.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 11, 2024 10:13

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

feels like covid was the last time you could expect even 1% of truth from western sources

like the whole thing with society deciding life was worthless and profit was everything really was the beginning of the end

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:13

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

with a team of skilled welders and unrestricted access to CAT's production i could easily pump out 1500 killdozers a year

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:22

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

mlmp08 posted:

I think it would matter a lot to Russian troops if they could count on 1,500 new tanks being fielded over the next year. Even more so if the tanks were then manned.

That's not what I'm debating fuckwit. gently caress off.

Ardennes posted:

I would assume Russian armor losses would probably be comparable to the manpower losses we have seen verified. It is just something like 1800 MBTs, many of them “abandoned, damaged, or captured” is pretty hard to swallow and then if you get to the actual tanks there isn’t any real way to identify what you are looking at especially if they are lacking invasion of any other markings.

It isn’t totally bogus, the Russians took losses but it just mixed with a bunch of nonsense to the point it essentially useless as a source and is only cited for predictable reasons.

It actually matters quite a bit we just don’t have any data and can only speculate. I wasn’t going to say anything because it is so vague who knows but then the conservation it obviously popped off.

Also, the age of a tank does matter to some extent and there are limits to what you can upgrade etc. the t-62 has a much larger smoothbore gun is actually a real asset for example over a t-55. They are metal boxes on wheels but there are merits of one over the other and what you can get away with. Also, I think ATGMs essentially the Javelin are way overhyped and there are ways to limit their effectiveness and it is very often not one shot one kill.

I'm meaning there is zero difference between 'new' and just refurbished. The differences between a modernized t62 and a t90 only matter in video games. The stuff that matters, like era and night vision gear, is all the same. If they can come up with hundreds of tanks to ukraines twenty odd it doesn't matter what model they are.

Slavvy has issued a correction as of 00:29 on Mar 24, 2023

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:25

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

V. Illych L. posted:

honestly the ISW and british intelligence getting cited without reservation makes me more upset than oryx. oryx has a method which you can sort of accept. it's a very *generous* method, but it is more or less consistent and basically transparent.

the ISW is an outright neocon think-tank, and british intelligence has been basically making stuff up for over a year now. there ought to be at least a sentence or some small caveat when citing them. both are state-affiliated entities with a clear interest in manipulating the discourse around the war. it's incredibly irritating.

British intelligence have been just making things up for a wee bit longer than a year.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:26

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Yeah, if someone believes Russia will upgrade 1,500 tanks in storage and subsequently field them this year to operational forces, I can see how it doesn�t matter what Medvedev said.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:28

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

British intelligence is full of the worst people in the UK, just think about that

like just the most absolute psychotic paedo scum that are from the right class and have the right networking so instead of having a murder shack on the moors they join MI6 or GCHQ and get to traffic and murder people all over the world

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:30

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

i have already built several new t-90s, it's very easy

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:33

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Just build 15 tanks called the Hundred

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:34

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Regarde Aduck posted:

British intelligence is full of the worst people in the UK, just think about that

like just the most absolute psychotic paedo scum that are from the right class and have the right networking so instead of having a murder shack on the moors they join MI6 or GCHQ and get to traffic and murder people all over the world

Well someone has to babysit prince Andrew and clean up the messes.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:34

John Charity Spring: Nov 4, 2009; SCREEEEE

Regarde Aduck posted:

British intelligence is full of the worst people in the UK, just think about that

like just the most absolute psychotic paedo scum that are from the right class and have the right networking so instead of having a murder shack on the moors they join MI6 or GCHQ and get to traffic and murder people all over the world

and sometimes they turn up dead zipped inside suitcases and it's ruled a suicide. that's fun

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:35

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

maybe Medvedev was including tracked APCs

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:38

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Everyone's going to laugh at Medvedev when he only delivers 1499 tanks.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:40

big dong wanter: Jan 28, 2010; The future for this country is roads, freeways and highways

To the dangerzone

John Charity Spring posted:

and sometimes they turn up dead zipped inside suitcases and it's ruled a suicide. that's fun

Honestly if you are going to kill yourself, making it look like a murder is the objectively correct way to go.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 00:52

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Frosted Flake posted:

Idk. "Russia is not going to run out of tanks in the next two years", but written backwards isn't a great headline for the West, is it?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:01

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Frosted Flake posted:

You should ignore Oryx and ISW but those are the most common sources other than unnamed officials.

Most of the lines in Omsk and Tula have been running at low volume because Russia was not expecting to fight a major continental war after 1991. The limit was previously the size of orders, and the mothballing of capacity with budgets a fraction of the size of the USSRs.

Sure, but it's also thirty years of the state decaying and maintenance size orders. Is the entire production line manned by grey beards? How fast can you train up a tankologist?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:08

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

genericnick posted:

Sure, but it's also thirty years of the state decaying and maintenance size orders. Is the entire production line manned by grey beards? How fast can you train up a tankologist?

How many hands of nod have you constructed?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:11

razorscooter: Nov 5, 2008

i am the one guy building all of the new tanks

the assembly line looks like that i love lucy bit but with roadwheels please help

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:12

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

euphronius posted:

maybe Medvedev was including tracked APCs

A BMP is a light tank.

Slavvy posted:

That's not what I'm debating fuckwit. gently caress off.

I'm meaning there is zero difference between 'new' and just refurbished. The differences between a modernized t62 and a t90 only matter in video games. The stuff that matters, like era and night vision gear, is all the same. If they can come up with hundreds of tanks to ukraines twenty odd it doesn't matter what model they are.

I've seen it reported that the T-62 upgrade package includes older night vision and iirc firing computers which apparently does imply a significant qualitative difference. Still a night vision equipped tank though.

V. Illych L. posted:

honestly the ISW and british intelligence getting cited without reservation makes me more upset than oryx. oryx has a method which you can sort of accept. it's a very *generous* method, but it is more or less consistent and basically transparent.

the ISW is an outright neocon think-tank, and british intelligence has been basically making stuff up for over a year now. there ought to be at least a sentence or some small caveat when citing them. both are state-affiliated entities with a clear interest in manipulating the discourse around the war. it's incredibly irritating.

Oryx works for bellingcat so he's a state affiliated entity with a clear interest in manipulating the discourse around the war.

Ardennes posted:

It is a pretty small van having to use muddy back roads while still being nimble enough to dodge hazards. I kind of doubt they have a ton of fuel sloshing around back there.

If it's a rear wheel drive the weight will help with traction : )

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:13

Organ Fiend: May 21, 2007; custom title

Cpt_Obvious posted:

He did it! He made a prediction in one post and then wriggled out of it in the next!

Al Saqr says mlmp08 is finished

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:13

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

this whole "there's no difference between old and new tanks" only makes sense if it's accepted fact that armour is now meaningless which feels like going back to the 60's era tank doctrine

like if we're giving up on ever stopping anti-tank weapons from destroying a hit tank then why not go back to lightly armoured tanks like the leopard 1? If armour can *sometimes* stop rounds then... it does matter? Like even with modern Russian ERA it's supposed to work in tandem with the passive composite armour underneath so there is absolutely a difference between A 62 and 72's onwards because the 62 is just a slab of steel. Again this is only if we assume even a small amount of fire can be stopped by armour. Like even if the chance of a T-90 stopping a sabot hitting its frontal armour is only 10%, if i was in the crew i'd feel better than being in the 62 which absolutely isn't going to stop a modern round with just the ERA.

So i feel the arguement isn't between people who think reality is like games or whatever, instead it seems to be a split between people who think armour does anything at all and those that don't and i can't tell if any of this is based on actual academic facts or just gut feelings

Regarde Aduck has issued a correction as of 01:22 on Mar 24, 2023

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:20

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

" the rookie mistake is attempting to justify your reasoning or admit you made a mistake or was wrong in any way. never ever admit or apologize if youre wrong (which you arent btw), simply take a deep breath, and say whatever. you are never wrong everyone else is stupid"

- book of Al Saqr chapter 38 verse 94

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:22

Flipswitch: Mar 30, 2010

I'm sure no matter how many T-90s they build it won't compete with the 6 Leopards that Spain is sending.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:27

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

i sneak into the russian tank factories at night and quietly dissassemble them

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:28

Vomik: Jul 29, 2003; This post is dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan

Regarde Aduck posted:

this whole "there's no difference between old and new tanks" only makes sense if it's accepted fact that armour is now meaningless which feels like going back to the 60's era tank doctrine

like if we're giving up on ever stopping anti-tank weapons from destroying a hit tank then why not go back to lightly armoured tanks like the leopard 1? If armour can *sometimes* stop rounds then... it does matter? Like even with modern Russian ERA it's supposed to work in tandem with the passive composite armour underneath so there is absolutely a difference between A 62 and 72's onwards because the 62 is just a slab of steel. Again this is only if we assume even a small amount of fire can be stopped by armour. Like even if the chance of a T-90 stopping a sabot hitting its frontal armour is only 10%, if i was in the crew i'd feel better than being in the 62 which absolutely isn't going to stop a modern round with just the ERA.

So i feel the arguement isn't between people who think reality is like games or whatever, instead it seems to be a split between people who think armour does anything at all and those that don't and i can't tell if any of this is based on actual academic facts or just gut feelings

i think most people would prefer to be a Russia. soldier in a t55 driving around backed by heavy artillery than a Ukrainian soldier in an abrams, which I think is why people say �does it matter?�

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:29

A Bakers Cousin: Dec 18, 2003; by vyelkin

the secret weapons winning the war, the sneaky wrench

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:29

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Regarde Aduck posted:

this whole "there's no difference between old and new tanks" only makes sense if it's accepted fact that armour is now meaningless which feels like going back to the 60's era tank doctrine

like if we're giving up on ever stopping anti-tank weapons from destroying a hit tank then why not go back to lightly armoured tanks like the leopard 1? If armour can *sometimes* stop rounds then... it does matter? Like even with modern Russian ERA it's supposed to work in tandem with the passive composite armour underneath so there is absolutely a difference between A 62 and 72's onwards because the 62 is just a slab of steel. Again this is only if we assume even a small amount of fire can be stopped by armour. Like even if the chance of a T-90 stopping a sabot hitting its frontal armour is only 10%, if i was in the crew i'd feel better than being in the 62 which absolutely isn't going to stop a modern round with just the ERA.

So i feel the arguement isn't between people who think reality is like games or whatever, instead it seems to be a split between people who think armour does anything at all and those that don't and i can't tell if any of this is based on actual academic facts or just gut feelings

The gun does a lot

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:30

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Regarde Aduck posted:

this whole "there's no difference between old and new tanks" only makes sense if it's accepted fact that armour is now meaningless which feels like going back to the 60's era tank doctrine

like if we're giving up on ever stopping anti-tank weapons from destroying a hit tank then why not go back to lightly armoured tanks like the leopard 1? If armour can *sometimes* stop rounds then... it does matter? Like even with modern Russian ERA it's supposed to work in tandem with the passive composite armour underneath so there is absolutely a difference between A 62 and 72's onwards because the 62 is just a slab of steel. Again this is only if we assume even a small amount of fire can be stopped by armour. Like even if the chance of a T-90 stopping a sabot hitting its frontal armour is only 10%, if i was in the crew i'd feel better than being in the 62 which absolutely isn't going to stop a modern round with just the ERA.

So i feel the arguement isn't between people who think reality is like games or whatever, instead it seems to be a split between people who think armour does anything at all and those that don't and i can't tell if any of this is based on actual academic facts or just gut feelings

What simplifies this equation is Ukraine having functionally no tanks, there are no sabots to stop

Maybe think of it this way: there are rings of protection around the tank crew and the armor shell and era are not close to being the outermost. A large number of atgm's are stopped by interdiction from planes and cruise missiles before even get in the hands of UA troops. Then a large chunk of the rest are stopped by artillery. Then of the very small minority that have the chance to be near a tank, a good number will simply miss or not work properly, or the operators will be killed by Russian troops before they have a chance to shoot. Then you have the final tiny minority that the armor has to contend with. Do you see now why I say it makes no difference what kind of tanks they have?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:32

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Also, the single tank factory is the world�s largest.

In 2010 they set a world production record, and I imagine they are working to built on that now.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:36

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

wow

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:42

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

searching wikifeet for "ukraine"

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:44

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Wow Wikipedia got some better editors

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:44

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

PawParole posted:

wow

it's weird which groups can tell the truth

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:47

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

PawParole posted:

wow

I hate to find out that horseshoe theory is true like this

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:53

Megamissen: Jul 19, 2022; any post can be a kannapost
if you want it to be

Endman posted:

I hate to find out that horseshoe theory is true like this

i need to know the status of budjak before i can make a judgement

# ? Mar 24, 2023 01:58

Mandoric: Mar 15, 2003

genericnick posted:

What do you have on the Chinese navy? What can they do around Africa?

Frosted Flake posted:

Red Star over the Pacific

It's not my desk so I haven't read them, I just see emails listing them.

I can't give a particularly good review, but this is definitely something that's made the rounds recently at the local school with a notable International Studies program. Central thesis seems to be a Chinese turn toward Mahan, which would imply thought similar to the IJN and re: your question a large, powerful fleet able to move beyond the second island chain and establish a commanding position in the Indian Ocean as a predicate to securing lines of communication. Sadly, the chapter that focuses on that is short on detail and long on ~culture analysis~ to the point where even the previous owner of my copy wasn't very impressed; the closest they get to a solid thrust there is the idea that this control would be aimed more at pressing a sort of Monroe Doctrine equivalent to guarantee influence in India itself.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 02:01

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Mandoric posted:

~culture analysis~

Cultural analysis, be it the return of Kremlinology or recent musings about the inscrutable Orient and Sun Tzu, is the least rigorous part of the academic culture around defence and international relations, and you really have to wonder about it sometimes because it seems mostly to entirely wrong. Come to think of it, it doesn't seem to have ever been right. From the Geneva Conference ending the Indochina War, to the Paris Peace Talks concerning Vietnam to predicting Soviet policy, it seems to me that skull measuring should be discredited - particularly since anyone who is recently from there, educated there, has family there, etc can't get the security clearance so these are all written by people who went to Georgetown.

For example on India and BRICS, Indian and Chinese Naval Policy, there's a lot of stuff about how the Indians are more "Western", the Indian Ocean leads to the Mediterranean, the Himalayas present a barrier on the Eurasian continent so that India looks towards Europe, and the tone of these gets more... "interesting", picking up tempo towards "well the British colonized them, so they're practically British (but worse)", and other stuff that frankly seems like a lot of words to say that the Indians are Aryan, and then oh no! The navy we expected to contain the PLAN is going on joint exercises with them. Dang.

I don't know, it's really loving weird and goes way back to Colonial Officers studying pottery and folklore to inform policy a century ago.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 02:16

Egg Moron: Jul 21, 2003; the dreams of the delighting void

how many boats could fit in the ocean, do you think?

# ? Mar 24, 2023 02:26

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

https://twitter.com/snekotron/status/1639072483222622209

congresscritters don't have access to juicy real military numbers, they basically have oryx numbers instead lmao

# ? Mar 24, 2023 02:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 11, 2024 10:13

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Also isnt producing 1500 tanks in a year very feasible for an industrial country on a war footing? the soviets used to produce 15,000 tanks a year in ww2. I dont get why 1500 is hard to believe from one of the two main tank manufacturers on earth.

# ? Mar 24, 2023 02:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] ahegao to the poles

«‹›3746 »